kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
Another pic
research help: why did front loaders drop off from 70s-00s?
- Thread starter kbailey
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Growing up in the 60's - 70's, my mother hated with a passion front load machines and low suding detergents. I think she believed front loaders didn't clean as well as a traditional toploader. Even when she went to a coin laundrymat and had a choice it was always a toploader. So in our household, Speed Queens ruled the day for the most part. Color was always white.
As for location, she didn't like laundry facilities in the house proper, outside in the garage or utility shed was the perfered area. For many years Dad was in the military and base housing had them in the kitchens or off to the side, I don't think she thought it was too sanitary close to the food.
Also, growing up in the military, they provided most machines in the housing and it was usually a what-not collection, not any definite perfered brand. Mostly white though.
As for location, she didn't like laundry facilities in the house proper, outside in the garage or utility shed was the perfered area. For many years Dad was in the military and base housing had them in the kitchens or off to the side, I don't think she thought it was too sanitary close to the food.
Also, growing up in the military, they provided most machines in the housing and it was usually a what-not collection, not any definite perfered brand. Mostly white though.
Laundry Locations in Arkansas
Most of our homes here do not have basements, a few do. Homes from the 60's and 70's usually had a separate utility room that house the washer, dryer, hot water tank, and space for a freezer/ extra fridge. These rooms were usually located in a separate closet under the carport or garage or when you first enter the house from the carport/garage. Some of the homes with garage doors have a separate space in the garage for the washer and dryer ( have seen this in both one and two car garages here). My home from the 80's is right off the kitchen, coming in from the garage. I would not want to have to go out in the cold to do my laundry in the winter so I am glad to have it indoors. Now, older homes, such as one of my grandparents had a screened in back porch and a room off the back porch where the washer and dryer went beside the hot water tank. I venture to say the house was so old it was built before people washer and dryer hookups and that was added later. Many people in South Arkansas do not have garage's but rather car ports. Central on up to Northwest you start to see more garage's on the homes. Of course you would not see a washer and dryer hookup in a carport setting. I have never actually been in or seen a home here that had the laundry close to the bedrooms unless it was a newer home where they separate the master, putting it on one side of the house (usually close to the garage entrance here) and the other bedrooms on the opposite end of the home. Still the laundry was located right in the door from the garage.
Most of our homes here do not have basements, a few do. Homes from the 60's and 70's usually had a separate utility room that house the washer, dryer, hot water tank, and space for a freezer/ extra fridge. These rooms were usually located in a separate closet under the carport or garage or when you first enter the house from the carport/garage. Some of the homes with garage doors have a separate space in the garage for the washer and dryer ( have seen this in both one and two car garages here). My home from the 80's is right off the kitchen, coming in from the garage. I would not want to have to go out in the cold to do my laundry in the winter so I am glad to have it indoors. Now, older homes, such as one of my grandparents had a screened in back porch and a room off the back porch where the washer and dryer went beside the hot water tank. I venture to say the house was so old it was built before people washer and dryer hookups and that was added later. Many people in South Arkansas do not have garage's but rather car ports. Central on up to Northwest you start to see more garage's on the homes. Of course you would not see a washer and dryer hookup in a carport setting. I have never actually been in or seen a home here that had the laundry close to the bedrooms unless it was a newer home where they separate the master, putting it on one side of the house (usually close to the garage entrance here) and the other bedrooms on the opposite end of the home. Still the laundry was located right in the door from the garage.
Again Freddy, you're confusing facts and opinions again, but I guess there is no use in discussing this further.
Thank you for sharing those pictures and your knowledge about the history of washing machines in Italy. That Candy 50 is a beautiful machine. I love the thermometer on it.
Odd that washing machines became common goods so late in Italy while there were so many made in Italy and sold all over Europe.
Thank you for sharing those pictures and your knowledge about the history of washing machines in Italy. That Candy 50 is a beautiful machine. I love the thermometer on it.
Odd that washing machines became common goods so late in Italy while there were so many made in Italy and sold all over Europe.
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
Candy Bi-matic and automatics
Just in the 1954 so after almost ten years of production of Modello 50 Candy introduce the Candy Bi-matic, the first model of washing machine with a spinner.
It is important to let you notice that both machines had a built-in heating element and it was due to the fact that most european houses didn't have current hot water, some had small wood powered heaters just for their bathtub or sink use... the old italian "condos" were very old buildings (the ones that still reamined standing from the bombs) so even historical ones,
they had chimneys and wooden stoves as heating only ,just after the 60s when economical boom started even the old building and new raising condos were provided with centralized hot water and heaters, some had just centralized heating and electric boilers for hot water production.
But here I'm going too much off topic...
Anyway, this is why most washers in Europe mostly came with their own heaters....
In the 1960 Candy start to produce fully automatic models....
They were Fl's types only due to the fact that they started to make machines copying the "German" way of earlier german washer manufacturers of automatics such as AEG and Constructa as german automatics in the 60s made their brutal enter into the italian market and that is why FL's are almost the only type of machines italians ever known, the italian economic boom started so quickly in a few years since the start of the 1960 homes started to fill with radios and refrigerators first, then the richest even washers, so during the 60s the 35% of homes had a washer and the number would have increased to 75% in the 70s and almost 90% in the 80s....
Video showing how a Bi-matic is:
[this post was last edited: 7/31/2012-19:36]
Just in the 1954 so after almost ten years of production of Modello 50 Candy introduce the Candy Bi-matic, the first model of washing machine with a spinner.
It is important to let you notice that both machines had a built-in heating element and it was due to the fact that most european houses didn't have current hot water, some had small wood powered heaters just for their bathtub or sink use... the old italian "condos" were very old buildings (the ones that still reamined standing from the bombs) so even historical ones,
they had chimneys and wooden stoves as heating only ,just after the 60s when economical boom started even the old building and new raising condos were provided with centralized hot water and heaters, some had just centralized heating and electric boilers for hot water production.
But here I'm going too much off topic...
Anyway, this is why most washers in Europe mostly came with their own heaters....
In the 1960 Candy start to produce fully automatic models....
They were Fl's types only due to the fact that they started to make machines copying the "German" way of earlier german washer manufacturers of automatics such as AEG and Constructa as german automatics in the 60s made their brutal enter into the italian market and that is why FL's are almost the only type of machines italians ever known, the italian economic boom started so quickly in a few years since the start of the 1960 homes started to fill with radios and refrigerators first, then the richest even washers, so during the 60s the 35% of homes had a washer and the number would have increased to 75% in the 70s and almost 90% in the 80s....
Video showing how a Bi-matic is:
[this post was last edited: 7/31/2012-19:36]
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
foraloysius
If you want to think that I'm confusing opinions to facts, well, I can't do nothing but let you think as you want to....
I'm thinking to continue writing about the story of washing machines in Italy if I have time, there is so much to tell!
And yes in Italy washers became common goods so late than rest of Europe, Italy was completely destroyed after the war and economic situation of people started to increase just after the 1960 during the so-called "economical boom".
[this post was last edited: 7/31/2012-19:44]
If you want to think that I'm confusing opinions to facts, well, I can't do nothing but let you think as you want to....
I'm thinking to continue writing about the story of washing machines in Italy if I have time, there is so much to tell!
And yes in Italy washers became common goods so late than rest of Europe, Italy was completely destroyed after the war and economic situation of people started to increase just after the 1960 during the so-called "economical boom".
[this post was last edited: 7/31/2012-19:44]
jeb
Well-known member
Top loader popularity
Just to throw another opinion in the mix; Just after WWI we had thousands of service men returning and starting families. Buying with a credit card (or on time) became the norm. Sears had a great catolog following and just about anyone could get a Sears card (I got one in college with a $100.00 dollar limit). This was well before brand central and the only appliances sold at sears were Kemore. Kenmore did not have a frontloader line so they were pretty much out of the picture for those families tring to "move on up". I remember when my parent redid the kitchen every new appliance was from the "Sears Best" line, and we lived in Mansfield home to Westinghouse! My parents only had a Sears charge card so they when to Sears for everything appliances,lawnmowers,tires ect... Jeb
Just to throw another opinion in the mix; Just after WWI we had thousands of service men returning and starting families. Buying with a credit card (or on time) became the norm. Sears had a great catolog following and just about anyone could get a Sears card (I got one in college with a $100.00 dollar limit). This was well before brand central and the only appliances sold at sears were Kemore. Kenmore did not have a frontloader line so they were pretty much out of the picture for those families tring to "move on up". I remember when my parent redid the kitchen every new appliance was from the "Sears Best" line, and we lived in Mansfield home to Westinghouse! My parents only had a Sears charge card so they when to Sears for everything appliances,lawnmowers,tires ect... Jeb
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
Jeb.....
By guessing and being totally sure that what you ment was WWII not WWI, I can say that I know in US just after WWII most of the people owned and were still buying wringer washers instead of automatics as they were the majority and automatics were just still enough rare to be find in your normal average size retailer electric shop even if some of course used to have a few models of them among wringers,the automatic washer was such a news or anyway a machine that most people couldn't afford to get, some shops even had front loader type as early bendix machines were.
I know that for most of the brands at the time it was common to produce wringer types mostly and few models of automatics, mostly of the which were of course TL's only.
So it is quite normal you couldn't find FL's of the Sears Kenmore or at least what I mean is that it was not so strange and nor just a Kenmore "characteristic" as maybe wrongly I've understand you wanted to say.
There were very few brands/manufacturers such as Bendix, that as I said, used to produce automatics FL's since the early days, trying to distinguish from the others by claiming that Fl's were "better and more efficient machines", with the only goal to get more sales, then others followed in this new marketing maneuvre as for example westinghouse did, with their early "laundromats" models...
Jed, I just can't understand why your would be opinions, they looks rather facts to me the ones you have experienced, sought, lived and learned, so it makes of them facts unless you wanted to write opinions on purpose in a sarcastic way since here for some people facts are intended as opinions.....
Freddy[this post was last edited: 8/1/2012-14:25]
By guessing and being totally sure that what you ment was WWII not WWI, I can say that I know in US just after WWII most of the people owned and were still buying wringer washers instead of automatics as they were the majority and automatics were just still enough rare to be find in your normal average size retailer electric shop even if some of course used to have a few models of them among wringers,the automatic washer was such a news or anyway a machine that most people couldn't afford to get, some shops even had front loader type as early bendix machines were.
I know that for most of the brands at the time it was common to produce wringer types mostly and few models of automatics, mostly of the which were of course TL's only.
So it is quite normal you couldn't find FL's of the Sears Kenmore or at least what I mean is that it was not so strange and nor just a Kenmore "characteristic" as maybe wrongly I've understand you wanted to say.
There were very few brands/manufacturers such as Bendix, that as I said, used to produce automatics FL's since the early days, trying to distinguish from the others by claiming that Fl's were "better and more efficient machines", with the only goal to get more sales, then others followed in this new marketing maneuvre as for example westinghouse did, with their early "laundromats" models...
Jed, I just can't understand why your would be opinions, they looks rather facts to me the ones you have experienced, sought, lived and learned, so it makes of them facts unless you wanted to write opinions on purpose in a sarcastic way since here for some people facts are intended as opinions.....
Freddy[this post was last edited: 8/1/2012-14:25]
Kbailey: I bet you are thinking to yourself "Boy I sure got a lot more than I bargined for when I posted that first, and then second question".
I hope all of this info helps you!
Kevin
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
Dear Kbailey
I hope these info helps you also, even if some are among some spats that could have easily been avoided....
I got distracted with the Candy and italian machines history and I forgot to talk about laundry locations in Europe.
In Italy everyone has his own washer into the house even in the condos, there is not the use to have a common laundry room, everyone has it's own washer inside his own home, usually the locations in apartments are the Bathrooms and sometimes the kitchens, in bigger apartments usually there is a laundry room or a walk-in closet on purpose usually next to the kitchen.
Indipendent houses usually have a laundry room located in the garage, basement,subscales and or walk-in closets or utilities rooms next to the kitchen.
I know in French apartments it is common to have washing machines in the bathroom as well rather than in the kitchen, Spain the same way....
France and Spain are all very similar to Italy for what concerns laundry locations.
Hope this may help you.
[this post was last edited: 8/1/2012-17:02]
I hope these info helps you also, even if some are among some spats that could have easily been avoided....
I got distracted with the Candy and italian machines history and I forgot to talk about laundry locations in Europe.
In Italy everyone has his own washer into the house even in the condos, there is not the use to have a common laundry room, everyone has it's own washer inside his own home, usually the locations in apartments are the Bathrooms and sometimes the kitchens, in bigger apartments usually there is a laundry room or a walk-in closet on purpose usually next to the kitchen.
Indipendent houses usually have a laundry room located in the garage, basement,subscales and or walk-in closets or utilities rooms next to the kitchen.
I know in French apartments it is common to have washing machines in the bathroom as well rather than in the kitchen, Spain the same way....
France and Spain are all very similar to Italy for what concerns laundry locations.
Hope this may help you.
[this post was last edited: 8/1/2012-17:02]
Here in Canada top loaders were more the norm....I only recall seeing two front loaders growing up....the McAlpines had a Westinghouse and my Uncle's Mom had a combination which I also believe was a Westinghouse which she prolly got after their farmhouse burned down in 1965 and they moved to town.
Top loaders were never popular in overseas countries where water was in short supply or hydro expensive.....all the machines in Cyprus in 1986/87 were front loaders and I think most were also front loaders in Germany also. Small kitchens and houses had something to do with this. My sister's machines were front loaded in Bedford, England 1988-90, and she was a rarity amongst her neighbours in that she had and used a dryer; most hung their wash outside even in the pouring rain or snow. She also had a deep freeze which was truly rare.
As far as colours go do not think most in Canada had anything but white, though I do remember the Frigidaire kitchens installed in a lot of houses in our 'hood in Montreal ca 1965 being tourquoise. My Mum did get all harvest gold appliances in 1976....Maytag washer and Dryer, GE Fridge and stove and Kitchen Air Dishwasher, which were replaced in 1994 when they rebuilt the kitchen.
Top loaders were never popular in overseas countries where water was in short supply or hydro expensive.....all the machines in Cyprus in 1986/87 were front loaders and I think most were also front loaders in Germany also. Small kitchens and houses had something to do with this. My sister's machines were front loaded in Bedford, England 1988-90, and she was a rarity amongst her neighbours in that she had and used a dryer; most hung their wash outside even in the pouring rain or snow. She also had a deep freeze which was truly rare.
As far as colours go do not think most in Canada had anything but white, though I do remember the Frigidaire kitchens installed in a lot of houses in our 'hood in Montreal ca 1965 being tourquoise. My Mum did get all harvest gold appliances in 1976....Maytag washer and Dryer, GE Fridge and stove and Kitchen Air Dishwasher, which were replaced in 1994 when they rebuilt the kitchen.
And laundry rooms were in basements until the 1970s.....such was the case in my parents houses built in 1958, 1962 and 1968.....when we moved to Toronto in 1972 the laundry room was in the back hall on the main floor. All the houses I have owned the laundry was in the basement.....houses built on slabs are very rare here in Canada.
And may people in the country kept their wringer washer in the bathroom because the bathtub was used to rinse the clothes.....prior to the family farmhouse getting hydro in 1949 Mom tells me my Grandmother kept her gas powered machine in the shed year round, and heated all the hot water for it in a tank mounted behind the wood stove......and all that water was pumped by hand out of the well!!! Must have been fun slopping water around on a -25F day with wash from seven kids to do.....it was hung on the front porch most of the year, and when really cold on clothes racks over the wood furnace register in the front hall...no need for a humidifier!
philr
Well-known member
Where did you live in Montreal?
Paul told me there were a lot of Frigidaire appliances in Beacon Hill in the mid-sixties. There is a turquoise wall oven and a turquoise and cooktop from there that were recently for sale.
Paul told me there were a lot of Frigidaire appliances in Beacon Hill in the mid-sixties. There is a turquoise wall oven and a turquoise and cooktop from there that were recently for sale.
For those unfamiliar w/ Canadian terms:
Hydro = Electricity
Have heard of "hydro" being used to describe "electric power" based on it actually being "water generated", right down to "electric lines" being called "hydro poles", in Canadian radio broadcasts (and at first literally getting different impressions, especially w/ basic utilities being "water", "hydro", "phone" & "gas"--and electricity not mentioned, whereas "water" & "hydro" seemed redundant)...
Now back to our regular scheduled topic!
-- Dave
Hydro = Electricity
Have heard of "hydro" being used to describe "electric power" based on it actually being "water generated", right down to "electric lines" being called "hydro poles", in Canadian radio broadcasts (and at first literally getting different impressions, especially w/ basic utilities being "water", "hydro", "phone" & "gas"--and electricity not mentioned, whereas "water" & "hydro" seemed redundant)...
Now back to our regular scheduled topic!
-- Dave
launderess
Well-known member
Just A Little Tidbit
Was going through my vintage CR "buying guides" from the 1980's researching another matter, and came upon the ratings for washing machines.
In 1984 the top rated top loaders, Maytag A710 and Whirlpool LA5800 all rated good to excellent across all categories including cleaning performace of regular and permanent press fabrics.
However the two front loaders tested, White-Westinghouse LT600E and Gibson WS14M6WL rated excellent across the board, period. The only exceptions were tub capacity and water extraction.
Tub capacity of course when compared to the large top loaders of the 1980's these front loaders held less. They didn't extract at the fast rpms we have today for front loaders so the left more water in laundry.
This bears out something that has been said for over one hundred years now, h-axis washing machines clean better then top loaders.
Was going through my vintage CR "buying guides" from the 1980's researching another matter, and came upon the ratings for washing machines.
In 1984 the top rated top loaders, Maytag A710 and Whirlpool LA5800 all rated good to excellent across all categories including cleaning performace of regular and permanent press fabrics.
However the two front loaders tested, White-Westinghouse LT600E and Gibson WS14M6WL rated excellent across the board, period. The only exceptions were tub capacity and water extraction.
Tub capacity of course when compared to the large top loaders of the 1980's these front loaders held less. They didn't extract at the fast rpms we have today for front loaders so the left more water in laundry.
This bears out something that has been said for over one hundred years now, h-axis washing machines clean better then top loaders.
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
One hundred years??? "Have been said" ...pfff.....do not know the voices you heard and if you did so of course I cannot say that is not the truth about what you heard. But 100 years is such a megalomaniac statement, hope you realize it.....you would tell that in 1912 there were h-axis washing machines? Or at least washing machines were common goods to assesses such claims? -.- okay said it all!
Then I'm curious to know how many were the TL machines rated excellent,how many good.... and which maybe also.
It's also curious the fact that they took as sample just 2 H axis machines, do you think that if they said just good wash result, over the fact that these machine had poor spinning and a smaller load they would not have sold many of them then?
Would not have had any complaints from the westinghouse for this?
So of course they did put excellent washing as it was the only thing they could say as I hope you know, washing results may be easily be charged to the owner/user not a spinning or load as they're facts that cannot change due to them.......
But again, it would have been nice to know even the load they used to test TL and these h axis....of course it was different.
Also would be nice to know the detergent amount they used with those TL washers rated just good, as you know every model changes, for ex the GE's filter-flo used to have an outher tub much bigger than for example a maytag or a whirlppol so they needed a bigger amount of detergent, if they used the same amount for all machines here explained why some were just good....
This is just to say these guides are not that trusted.
Also, in the past it was used to produce h axis machines as capient as a TL so it was not because of the load size and nor for spinning performances, the preference for TL was something gained over time, you cannot take a guide of the 80s waving it as it were the Bible of the washers.
For example I've recently read here an english guide where TL agitator machines were all rated Very good (the higher votation)!
But I will not say it bears anything as I said these guides cannot be trusted!
Anyway.....
I've already read many things from you with wich I don't absolutely agree, I'm not surprised to read even these....
Then I'm curious to know how many were the TL machines rated excellent,how many good.... and which maybe also.
It's also curious the fact that they took as sample just 2 H axis machines, do you think that if they said just good wash result, over the fact that these machine had poor spinning and a smaller load they would not have sold many of them then?
Would not have had any complaints from the westinghouse for this?
So of course they did put excellent washing as it was the only thing they could say as I hope you know, washing results may be easily be charged to the owner/user not a spinning or load as they're facts that cannot change due to them.......
But again, it would have been nice to know even the load they used to test TL and these h axis....of course it was different.
Also would be nice to know the detergent amount they used with those TL washers rated just good, as you know every model changes, for ex the GE's filter-flo used to have an outher tub much bigger than for example a maytag or a whirlppol so they needed a bigger amount of detergent, if they used the same amount for all machines here explained why some were just good....
This is just to say these guides are not that trusted.
Also, in the past it was used to produce h axis machines as capient as a TL so it was not because of the load size and nor for spinning performances, the preference for TL was something gained over time, you cannot take a guide of the 80s waving it as it were the Bible of the washers.
For example I've recently read here an english guide where TL agitator machines were all rated Very good (the higher votation)!
But I will not say it bears anything as I said these guides cannot be trusted!
Anyway.....
I've already read many things from you with wich I don't absolutely agree, I'm not surprised to read even these....
So werf' ich den Brand
Actually there were great big wooden Wash Wheels, as tumble action washers were known, in commercial laundries close to that long ago and, if tumbler washers did not give the best results, commercial laundries would not have kept using them.
Actually there were great big wooden Wash Wheels, as tumble action washers were known, in commercial laundries close to that long ago and, if tumbler washers did not give the best results, commercial laundries would not have kept using them.
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
Tom
They were not common though among the "normal people"...that is what I mean't, actually in the 1912 existed even hand washing machine with oscillant basins also, that weren't much effective though as well....
And regarding the fact that in the commercial laundry they use mostly H axis it is because of the load sizes they wash, you can't make agitator washers as big as a H axis is it would be even difficult to take stuff inside the basket, Imagine how deep would be a washing tub.....they keep using h axis as I hope you know in the commercial laundry they do not give particularly about the cleaness into the washer, let me be more clear....in the laundromats( not self service ones) the stuff is preventively checked and stains are preventively removed before the machine wash by hand and by using products, and even after wash the stuff is meticolously checked and the stains that still remained are eventually hand removed after wash and or stuff is re-washed....
Regarding hotels etc is the same thing, also it is not a case that for sheets and stuff like this they use tons of bleach as stain removal is so poor using only detergent in those machines.....
They were not common though among the "normal people"...that is what I mean't, actually in the 1912 existed even hand washing machine with oscillant basins also, that weren't much effective though as well....
And regarding the fact that in the commercial laundry they use mostly H axis it is because of the load sizes they wash, you can't make agitator washers as big as a H axis is it would be even difficult to take stuff inside the basket, Imagine how deep would be a washing tub.....they keep using h axis as I hope you know in the commercial laundry they do not give particularly about the cleaness into the washer, let me be more clear....in the laundromats( not self service ones) the stuff is preventively checked and stains are preventively removed before the machine wash by hand and by using products, and even after wash the stuff is meticolously checked and the stains that still remained are eventually hand removed after wash and or stuff is re-washed....
Regarding hotels etc is the same thing, also it is not a case that for sheets and stuff like this they use tons of bleach as stain removal is so poor using only detergent in those machines.....
I hate to be pushed this far, but you don't know everything. You don't even know that much. Don't give us this crap that hand washing was all that was available a century ago or your oscillating basins. They had the wooden wash wheels in commercial laundries in California going back at least to the beginning of the 20th century, perhaps before that. My parents saw them in old laundries owned by the same families that built them who were friends in the 1940s. I am only responding because I and many others refuse to be bullied by you just because you can type. Launderess stated that tumbler washers have been proven best for a century. You do not know laundry history, at least not in this country.
All of your double talk about the tests on washers by CU in the 1980s report is just that: double talk. By the 80s, detergents had improved and tumbler washer drums had increased in size. Actually the drums increased in size in the Westinghouse by 1960 or so. They gave results on a par with top loading agitator washers. Get over it already. Much as you would like to, you cannot rewrite history based on your beliefs (or on the performance of older European tumbler washers). We have enough people trying to do it in this country so we don't need you doing it from outside.
All of your double talk about the tests on washers by CU in the 1980s report is just that: double talk. By the 80s, detergents had improved and tumbler washer drums had increased in size. Actually the drums increased in size in the Westinghouse by 1960 or so. They gave results on a par with top loading agitator washers. Get over it already. Much as you would like to, you cannot rewrite history based on your beliefs (or on the performance of older European tumbler washers). We have enough people trying to do it in this country so we don't need you doing it from outside.
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