Retro automatic washer

[norgeway]

The REASON..

Behind my computer rant..is that, before computers, old appliances in general were very affordable, now lots of times, people look at restored stuff and think what they have must be worth at least half as much...they have no comprehension of the work and expense that goes into a restoration, used to be a old washer could be bought at a thrift store for 25.00 a range was the same 25 to 50.00, now they will have a printout from Jowers or some other restoration shop showing a restored model for 5000 to 10000 dollars..same with vacuums, I used to canvass the vac shops, I have bought tons of old machines for 10 to 15 dollars, now they are astronomically priced, years ago we had a set price at the VCCC convention, 15.00 was the maximum anyone could charge for an old machine, we then had truly affordable hobbies, now its different, also, what concerns me most is, everything in our country depends on computers...defense systems, banking, the electrical grid, all it would take is a pulse from a good sized nuke, and we would be helpless, not likely, but possible.I think they are fine as entertainment, but I dont do ANY business on line, except for paypal on ebay, I pay my bills by check, and will continue just as long as I can.

 

[DADoES]

 
<blockquote>I pay my bills by check, and will continue just as long as I can.</blockquote> The receiving payee may process the check electronically, as does their bank and yours. 

 

[kitty]

@swestoyz:

1/3 HP?! I would think it would be in upwards of 1 1/2 to 2 HP. Do you think a 1/2 HP would directly spin a full tub of water? My WP DD is a 20" machine. THX for your reply.

@cornutt:what is a "large stepper motor"? I've never heard of that.

 

[washman]

I've ranted on this many times before

I'm sure some just roll their eyes, but I get you 100% terryT. The wrong application of technology is just plain idiotic, no matter what the motive. In the case of laundry, particularly with consumer units, complaints are legion. And simply stated, those machines just don't last as long as the oldies.

 

[DADoES]

 
<blockquote>@cornutt:what is a "large stepper motor"? I've never heard of that.</blockquote> Example, disassembled.

The piece on the right (with multiple copper-wound poles) is the stator. The gray disk on the left is the rotor.  It has magnets around the periphery and rotates in response to a the field generated by the stator.  The drive shaft mounts into the rotor.  The white piece mounted on the stator is a rotor position sensor by which the control board monitors the rotational speed and position of the rotor, and can precisely control the RPM and arc of movement.

 

[cornutt]

Kitty, a "stepper motor" is a particular type of motor that can be made to move in very small increments. Basically, it has a whole bunch of pole pieces around the circumfrence of the motor. The poles are connected to one of three circuits, called A, B, and C, in a repeating sequence: A B C A B C etc. If the motor is currently on an A pole, you can make it move a small amount in one direction by applying power to the B circuit. It then moves to the B pole. Now you can make it move further in that direction by applying power to the C circuit. Or make it go back in the other direction by applying power to the A circuit. If you have a computer controlling all of this, you can make the motor run in either direction as fast or as slow as you want, or you can make it go back and forth in alternate directions, or stop very rapidly.

A stepper motor that is big enough can really move a heavy, high-inertia object like a tub full of water and laundry. The GE Harmony washer uses a large stepper motor to move its wash plate and tub. The Harmony has a part of its wash cycle called the "infusion", in which it spins the full tub of water first one way and then the other. The cleaning value of the infusion is debatable, but the fact that the motor does it with ease is impressive. It also does the agitation by rapidly alternating directions, and it spins the tub at 1000 RPM. And it's direct drive; there is no transmission, and no clutch except for the mechanism that locks and unlocks the tub.

I brought up the stepper in regard to the common problem with any washer that does spin drain of how to get the full tub of water moving at the start of the spin. Water is heavy, and most washers with spin drain need a mechanism that allows a known, controlled amount of slip to occur so that the motor doesn't stall and overheat trying to get started. But such mechanisms are often problematic and require regular maintenance. The stepper motor would make a great alternative for a modern solid-tub machine, since it wouldn't need a slip mechanism. It could drive the tub directly and provide an almost infinite choice of spin speed.

 

[kitty]

Also,

@cornutt again for modern solid tub washers: There could be an optical load level sensor and a metered fill. Or manually selectable fill... whatever.

They should take something, such as a Maytag J2L wringer washer and take off the wringer and replace it with an inner tub (solid) and an agitate and spin lever with a fluid clutch for accelerating spin drum. It should be direct connect with the motor, for a better spin speed: 1,725 RPM. The clutch would be the brake, the transmission has a brake which instantly stops it so the clutch silently stops it. When the lever is move from SPIN to AGITATE, the trans will stop for fluid clutch to stop spinning tub. Pump will be always on, so you could do overflow rinse. It could have a turnable spout, firm fan spray for optimum spray rinse. For agitation mode, there could be a trans. brake so the tub won't index. Suspension could be the motor mounted on 4 springs and could have locking wheels for feet so it could roll around. The pump could be a centrifugal on bottom end of motor shaft, so optimum drain speed. On the top need, the transmission for efficient operation. I would think there could be an optional clear outer tub, for viewing purposes if you want. There could also be a square outer tub, like E2L or J2L. Agitator would be the same, like in the wringer washers. The inner tub would have a basket-weave top so clothes won't come out into outer tub. There wouldn't be any top trim on inner tub, so the water could dump out as quick as possible. Now that would be a COOL thing, if it all worked flawlessly.

 

[kitty]

How is speed regulated/controlled?

Is it variable frequency or volts?

 

[cornutt]

Kitty: A stepper motor needs a processor to control it. The processor has to apply power in bursts to the A, B, & C circuits in sequence to make the motor keep turning. Speed is controlled by how much power is applied in each burst, and it needs a position sensor that the controller can read to figure out when the motor has moved far enough to apply power to the next circiut. They sell dedicated IC's that can do all this -- you tell the controller how fast you want the motor to run and in which direction, and it does all the work of managing the A/B/C circuits to make the motor do what you want.

I like the idea of an Apex tub mechanism, where the entire tub agitates, attached to a direct-drive stepper motor. Mechanically it would be extremely simple. There would be only one shaft seal, where the shaft goes through the outer tub.

 

[kitty]

ok... Im thinking of Samsung and Lg.

I think those have the large external rotor motor. Do you think you like the modified Mayg wringer washer ?

 

[DADoES]

 
Kitty,

If I'm properly aware of the history, Fisher & Paykel pioneered the use of stepper motors in washing machines circa 1990/1992 with their SmartDrive toploader.  Whirlpool used the SmartDrive motor and design for introduction of the Kenmore Oasis, Whirlpool Cabrio, and Maytag Bravos.  Some Cabrio and Bravos toploaders still use it ... as do frontloaders from Whirlpool and others that you have mentioned.

 

[yogitunes]

todays solid tub.....well, not exactly today, but is it possible to convert a GE FilterFlo back to a solid tub design?.....

granted it would not be fool proof......and most likely wash full loads....but in reality, didn't GE just add a perforated tub to their machine to change it over?....I mean the outter tub never changed, and most of the mechanism should be the same.....

all you would need to find or create would be to make the perforated tub solid again.....

you would need a MiniBasket water level machine.....once the machine filled, and enough water overflowed into the outter tub, to trigger the pressure switch and allow for the filter flo to function.....

it would still be able to operate at two speeds, if available, and the plus side is the pump operates at full speed at all times...

would this actually be possible?....or is it to farfetched?...

 

[norgeway]

GE..

The mechanism actually did have oe change, the solid tub machines dont have the latch slide brake, they coast to a stop.