mrb627
Well-known member
logixx...
admitting you have a problem is the first step towards recovery.
Malcolm
admitting you have a problem is the first step towards recovery.
Malcolm
Reviews In For Whirlpool Powerwave Series
- Thread starter washerdude
- Start date
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norgeway
Well-known member
Well....
You can always do like I do and use vintage....My dishes and clothes are clean.
You can always do like I do and use vintage....My dishes and clothes are clean.
Thinking further: If you heat the water in a DW up to 150° or something and keep it there for 4+ minutes, you're dishes are sanitary. So, if you heat any food residue up to that temperature, it does get sanitized as well. So you food residue is always as clean as your dishes.
For the mathematics out there: The word soil, dirt or waste dose not equal its grade of sanitaryness. It is not a = in between those 2 facts.
For the mathematics out there: The word soil, dirt or waste dose not equal its grade of sanitaryness. It is not a = in between those 2 facts.
Oh, for Pete's sake 
Whether a machine has a filter or not, the idea is that food soils are expelled down the drain as much as possible. With a filter, you're hoping to catch the lion's share of the lot and dump it earlier in the cycle. With designs like the non-passive-filter GEs and D&Ms, they used a lot of water to try and improve the chances that food soils would get sent down the drain with the water prior to the final rinse.
Filter machines usually circulate through one filter, then drain through a different one, to allow the food soils to be carried down the drain whenever possible. This is why many never need any attention when you run the normal cycles, but may if you use faster cycles that don't offer that mechanism the time and number of water changes it needs to operate reliably.
Still others use soil separators and accumulators with varying degrees of success or what have you, but the point is still that the name of the game is to get the particulates down the drain as soon as possible. No machine strives to circulate water through food, and even those that do (and let's be real, it happens in all machines to some degree with occasional stray foodstuffs), it's likely some seriously clean food after spending the whole cycle in hot water and detergent.
I've used all three primary designs, and found performance to be satisfactory with all, if operated with an eye toward their limitations and predilections...and very little in the way of food left at the end, in any of them.
Whether a machine has a filter or not, the idea is that food soils are expelled down the drain as much as possible. With a filter, you're hoping to catch the lion's share of the lot and dump it earlier in the cycle. With designs like the non-passive-filter GEs and D&Ms, they used a lot of water to try and improve the chances that food soils would get sent down the drain with the water prior to the final rinse.
Filter machines usually circulate through one filter, then drain through a different one, to allow the food soils to be carried down the drain whenever possible. This is why many never need any attention when you run the normal cycles, but may if you use faster cycles that don't offer that mechanism the time and number of water changes it needs to operate reliably.
Still others use soil separators and accumulators with varying degrees of success or what have you, but the point is still that the name of the game is to get the particulates down the drain as soon as possible. No machine strives to circulate water through food, and even those that do (and let's be real, it happens in all machines to some degree with occasional stray foodstuffs), it's likely some seriously clean food after spending the whole cycle in hot water and detergent.
I've used all three primary designs, and found performance to be satisfactory with all, if operated with an eye toward their limitations and predilections...and very little in the way of food left at the end, in any of them.
I'll Weight In...
I have found with the DishDrawer (as has another member), that using the correct cycle, or frequently using the longer and much hotter cycles will keep the filters on our machine exceptionally clean.
So clean, in fact, they become "self-cleaning."
The DishDrawer may not have a disposer, but I know for a fact that thing has ground up rice before. You can hear it crunching away during the drainage cycle!
Using a shorter, cooler cycle means the food particles aren't "dissolved" as much - so you end up having to clean the filters of the snot-like sludge that builds up in there.
This difference is why my machine on 'Normal' would require more than the American equivalent: Less water changes, and lower temperature mean less of that soil is flushed away.
I have found with the DishDrawer (as has another member), that using the correct cycle, or frequently using the longer and much hotter cycles will keep the filters on our machine exceptionally clean.
So clean, in fact, they become "self-cleaning."
The DishDrawer may not have a disposer, but I know for a fact that thing has ground up rice before. You can hear it crunching away during the drainage cycle!
Using a shorter, cooler cycle means the food particles aren't "dissolved" as much - so you end up having to clean the filters of the snot-like sludge that builds up in there.
This difference is why my machine on 'Normal' would require more than the American equivalent: Less water changes, and lower temperature mean less of that soil is flushed away.
"Great cycles and features, but cleaning could be better
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Dishwashers Reviews, Features, and Deals - Reviewed
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The question about what is a sufficent amount of water
Its true one needs enough water to clean dishes and laundry.
Yet, some DW run as low as 2 gal, others need 10. Both use their own "sufficent" amount of water.
In the end, you want results. If they are efficently reached as well, it only makes them better.
Its true one needs enough water to clean dishes and laundry.
Yet, some DW run as low as 2 gal, others need 10. Both use their own "sufficent" amount of water.
In the end, you want results. If they are efficently reached as well, it only makes them better.
'If they are efficently reached as well, it only makes them better.'
Are outcomes achieved 'efficiently'? If you have to buy specialty products to put into that machine and run special cycles to keep it sanitary and it takes three or more hours to wash a load of dishes, that is not effective. In all honesty you are better off doing dishes by hand again - it's quicker and more efficient.
Are outcomes achieved 'efficiently'? If you have to buy specialty products to put into that machine and run special cycles to keep it sanitary and it takes three or more hours to wash a load of dishes, that is not effective. In all honesty you are better off doing dishes by hand again - it's quicker and more efficient.
I'm very confused at the mindset behind these "water-efficient" machines. From the specs of these new Whirlpools, the dishwasher will use about 3-4 gallons of water on a Normal cycle. However, if you read the fine print, that only happens with lightly soiled, basically prewashed, dishes. With a load of dishes much like I would load, covered in dried on sauces, oatmeal, and the stray pea or noodle and crumb of meat and the like, these machines can easily use 5-7 gallons, or sometimes more, making water changes 6+ times throughout the cycle.
Now, take the PowerClean design. The earlier models from '98 to around '02 would run a Prewash-Main Wash-Purge-Final Heated Rinse on the Normal cycle. At around 2.2 gallons per fill, that's about 6.8-7 gallons of water. Normal wash on these machines can easily wipe out what a new machine has to use Heavy or Pots & Pans for, which equates to the same amount of water. The later update to the PowerClean removed the prewash from the Normal cycle, as well as implementing a purge instead of a full prerinse on the Heavy cycle. At this point, Normal used about 4.5 gallons for a full cycle, and could still handle heavily soiled dishes.
It would seem to me that if Whirlpool would revisit the strengths of the PC design, and update the motor and electronics to be more efficient and be smarter with water and time management, they would once again have a dishwasher that trumps the competition. One of its strong points, much like the Hobart KitchenAids, is that the water usage per fill is higher, but it does fewer water changes. If this dishwasher can run one wash and one rinse, with a purge in between, and get perfect results every time, why did we ever switch to using a thimbleful of water per charge, with water changes every five seconds?
To me the logic behind more water per fill is that the soil coming off the dishes is much more diluted, and there is enough water to create a hurricane inside that flushes every surface clean. Once the wash is done and drained, and the small amount of water used in the purge clears the filter module, the same amount of water used for the wash is now used for the rinse, again, diluting any remaining detergent and soil to the point that it's nearly nonexistant, and the dishes get flushed squeaky clean. No kibble left in annoying places, no pesky film or residue left behind from the chemicals needed to compensate for the tiny amount of water in new machines, and a dishwasher that also keeps itself spotless even in the behind-the-scenes areas.
Whirlpool had a good thing going at that time, and it seems that they were in that mindset with the Point Voyager design; it wasn't as solid and powerful as the PC, but it was still a great dishwasher. Then these "eco" designs came along and it's like they threw everything they had been improving upon for the last 30+ years straight out the window.
Now, take the PowerClean design. The earlier models from '98 to around '02 would run a Prewash-Main Wash-Purge-Final Heated Rinse on the Normal cycle. At around 2.2 gallons per fill, that's about 6.8-7 gallons of water. Normal wash on these machines can easily wipe out what a new machine has to use Heavy or Pots & Pans for, which equates to the same amount of water. The later update to the PowerClean removed the prewash from the Normal cycle, as well as implementing a purge instead of a full prerinse on the Heavy cycle. At this point, Normal used about 4.5 gallons for a full cycle, and could still handle heavily soiled dishes.
It would seem to me that if Whirlpool would revisit the strengths of the PC design, and update the motor and electronics to be more efficient and be smarter with water and time management, they would once again have a dishwasher that trumps the competition. One of its strong points, much like the Hobart KitchenAids, is that the water usage per fill is higher, but it does fewer water changes. If this dishwasher can run one wash and one rinse, with a purge in between, and get perfect results every time, why did we ever switch to using a thimbleful of water per charge, with water changes every five seconds?
To me the logic behind more water per fill is that the soil coming off the dishes is much more diluted, and there is enough water to create a hurricane inside that flushes every surface clean. Once the wash is done and drained, and the small amount of water used in the purge clears the filter module, the same amount of water used for the wash is now used for the rinse, again, diluting any remaining detergent and soil to the point that it's nearly nonexistant, and the dishes get flushed squeaky clean. No kibble left in annoying places, no pesky film or residue left behind from the chemicals needed to compensate for the tiny amount of water in new machines, and a dishwasher that also keeps itself spotless even in the behind-the-scenes areas.
Whirlpool had a good thing going at that time, and it seems that they were in that mindset with the Point Voyager design; it wasn't as solid and powerful as the PC, but it was still a great dishwasher. Then these "eco" designs came along and it's like they threw everything they had been improving upon for the last 30+ years straight out the window.
And one other thing murando531, is the fact on my eco-approved GE, I have to clean the filter every other load. If I don't, the pump sounds like it is moving air and one can barely hear the already weak water splashing. The result: awful cleaning.
And the 3 hour cycle is a great use of time of course............
And the 3 hour cycle is a great use of time of course............
washerdude
Well-known member
Our kenmore dishwasher is now 2 months old and i got plenty of time to experiment with it. It does really well but...You really can't give it anything too challenging like stuck on food even though it was put in wet. It really dissapointed me one time because I though it could get off some stuck on food on a fork that had been pre rinsed so it would be easier to get off but it was still stuck on. Unlike normal this load was a little more challenging, so i picked the normal wash cycle. I immediately noticed that it skipped the drain for the pre wash stage and went right into the main wash and it paused alot throughout the cycle. At the end of the cycle. Everything was clean, exept the fork which is what i was testing, it still had a few spots of kibble/food left on it. Now it makes me wonder, if the last genaration of dishwashers could not handle something like this which my old maytag jetclean could have done with no issues, how well would these even handle a normal load. When is whirlpool going to finally put back atleast SOME of the quality back and power in them?
Earlier this year I purchased a new TOL Kitchen Aid dishwasher to replace an older KA that I really liked. I HATE this new dishwasher, no actually dispise would be a better word. Easily the worst applicance I have EVER purchased. That salesman at Lowes talked it up so good when I bought it, as he said, "Kitchen Aid is the best American made dishwasher made. Their motto in the company is to "build a dishwasher that will out Bosh Bosh." That was his words. So I bought it.
Oh where do I begin.....lets see.
1. Cycle times are 210 minutes long for "tough" and nearly as long for "normal" and "pro wash" has left food particles still on the dishes.
2. Must use a dishwasher cleaner / freshener at least once a month or more, if I run several loads, or the result will be stinky smell. After running the cleaner through with no dishes it smells like underarm deodorant, thus the next load of dishes smell that way too.
3. The pines are located weird on the upper rack. Its hard to fit some plastic wear in without it sticking way up. It seems to waste space.
4. And lastly, and most important, I have to keep those filters clean and clean out the bottom of any food particles that didn't go through. There is also cleaning underneath the floater water thing, black and grayish slime will build up.
The top of the filter is usually caked in grease, no lie, which I have had to boil and use bleach to clean it.
5. One day I was in a hurry and loaded it fast without rinsing out the glass wear and when I came back to unload it the first glass I picked up was sticky.
This was a $750.00 dishwasher I bought on sale. I got so fed up with having to wash the dishes before loading that I cleaned it out, ran a "cleaner" through it, and soaked up any standing water underneath the filters, let it dry out and found the paperwork that came with it and put it in the dishwasher. I will sell the damn thing with the house when I sell the house.
I bought a bottle of Ivory and spray bleach. I can wash the dishes by hand and put them up long before that thing even gets started.
So, yeah, I understand the frustration that I read concerning filters. I'm angry.
Oh where do I begin.....lets see.
1. Cycle times are 210 minutes long for "tough" and nearly as long for "normal" and "pro wash" has left food particles still on the dishes.
2. Must use a dishwasher cleaner / freshener at least once a month or more, if I run several loads, or the result will be stinky smell. After running the cleaner through with no dishes it smells like underarm deodorant, thus the next load of dishes smell that way too.
3. The pines are located weird on the upper rack. Its hard to fit some plastic wear in without it sticking way up. It seems to waste space.
4. And lastly, and most important, I have to keep those filters clean and clean out the bottom of any food particles that didn't go through. There is also cleaning underneath the floater water thing, black and grayish slime will build up.
The top of the filter is usually caked in grease, no lie, which I have had to boil and use bleach to clean it.
5. One day I was in a hurry and loaded it fast without rinsing out the glass wear and when I came back to unload it the first glass I picked up was sticky.
This was a $750.00 dishwasher I bought on sale. I got so fed up with having to wash the dishes before loading that I cleaned it out, ran a "cleaner" through it, and soaked up any standing water underneath the filters, let it dry out and found the paperwork that came with it and put it in the dishwasher. I will sell the damn thing with the house when I sell the house.
I bought a bottle of Ivory and spray bleach. I can wash the dishes by hand and put them up long before that thing even gets started.
So, yeah, I understand the frustration that I read concerning filters. I'm angry.
Question:
Exactly how come does it take these American machines over 3 stinking hours to wash the dishes, when their European counterparts are managing similar loads in a maximum of 2 hours generally (and with good results)?
New Miele machine I used recently: Auto-Wash cycle takes 1hr 10mins to complete, depending on soil. Normal is tipping 2 hrs. Not sure on water usage.
Miele I used in Norway, about 10 years old: Normal 50º - 60 minutes, Regular-Plus is about 90 minutes. Pots had a heated pre-wash, 70º wash and 70º rinse - about 2.5hrs (I can see why, with COLD water incoming!)
DishDrawer: 3 years old, longest cycle is 2hrs - but usually "shaves" about 20 minutes because of the hot incoming water temperature savings about 5-10 minutes of heating in each heating phase. Daily used cycle is 60 minutes in length. Uses about 2.4 Gallons total (8.93L), 4 water changes
Dishlex (Electrolux): We used to own, typically 90 minutes for a Regular cycle, with 4 water changes, I believe. About 5 gallons or 20L. 114 minutes for the 70º Pots cycle. 60 minutes for the 45º "Delicates/Economy" cycle - which used about 14L of water, IIRC.
All of the above machines scores reasonably well in Australian tests, and will work great provided they are used with proper detergent and with/without a hot connection. So tell me why it takes American machines so much longer to do the same job?
Exactly how come does it take these American machines over 3 stinking hours to wash the dishes, when their European counterparts are managing similar loads in a maximum of 2 hours generally (and with good results)?
New Miele machine I used recently: Auto-Wash cycle takes 1hr 10mins to complete, depending on soil. Normal is tipping 2 hrs. Not sure on water usage.
Miele I used in Norway, about 10 years old: Normal 50º - 60 minutes, Regular-Plus is about 90 minutes. Pots had a heated pre-wash, 70º wash and 70º rinse - about 2.5hrs (I can see why, with COLD water incoming!)
DishDrawer: 3 years old, longest cycle is 2hrs - but usually "shaves" about 20 minutes because of the hot incoming water temperature savings about 5-10 minutes of heating in each heating phase. Daily used cycle is 60 minutes in length. Uses about 2.4 Gallons total (8.93L), 4 water changes
Dishlex (Electrolux): We used to own, typically 90 minutes for a Regular cycle, with 4 water changes, I believe. About 5 gallons or 20L. 114 minutes for the 70º Pots cycle. 60 minutes for the 45º "Delicates/Economy" cycle - which used about 14L of water, IIRC.
All of the above machines scores reasonably well in Australian tests, and will work great provided they are used with proper detergent and with/without a hot connection. So tell me why it takes American machines so much longer to do the same job?
mrb627
Well-known member
My Guess...
Is POWER. Our machines run on a standard 120v circuit. They take longer to heat water.
Malcolm
Is POWER. Our machines run on a standard 120v circuit. They take longer to heat water.
Malcolm
The 3-Hour Normal Cycle: On my (and probably Ben's) GE dishwashers, 65 minutes of that is the drying portion of the cycle. The wash/rinse portion of the cycle (with wash temp boost selected) is 1 hour + 51 minutes.
GE uses sleight-of-hand when it comes to drying: If you don't select the Power Dry option, the timer registers 1:51. When the final rinse water has drained, the CLEAN light comes on and the tiny 2-watt fan continues to operate for 65 minutes (or until you open the door). If you select Power Dry, the timer simply adds 65 minutes to the total cycle time with no difference in drying protocol.
I prefer to opt out of Power Dry and open the door when the CLEAN light comes on. The dishes flash dry in a minute and you're ready for the next load in under two hours.
In fact, I rarely use the Wash Temp Boost option, as my home water heater is set at 140 degrees. This shortens the wash cycle to 1:15.
GE uses sleight-of-hand when it comes to drying: If you don't select the Power Dry option, the timer registers 1:51. When the final rinse water has drained, the CLEAN light comes on and the tiny 2-watt fan continues to operate for 65 minutes (or until you open the door). If you select Power Dry, the timer simply adds 65 minutes to the total cycle time with no difference in drying protocol.
I prefer to opt out of Power Dry and open the door when the CLEAN light comes on. The dishes flash dry in a minute and you're ready for the next load in under two hours.
In fact, I rarely use the Wash Temp Boost option, as my home water heater is set at 140 degrees. This shortens the wash cycle to 1:15.
To Barry in Post#31
Hi, You either have really bad water conditions or you need to use better detergents, there is no way that a newer KA DW will leave slime in the sump and food on dishes if it is loaded and used properly, If you feel that you these areas are OK then you need to call for warranty service.
KA DWs are among the Top Rated DWs by most testing organizations and we have very few cleaning complaints about them.
Hi, You either have really bad water conditions or you need to use better detergents, there is no way that a newer KA DW will leave slime in the sump and food on dishes if it is loaded and used properly, If you feel that you these areas are OK then you need to call for warranty service.
KA DWs are among the Top Rated DWs by most testing organizations and we have very few cleaning complaints about them.
mark_wpduet
Well-known member
These are some of the things
I was afraid of when my dishwasher died. I was afraid that by the time it was time to get a new one, there would be nothing on the market that was worth anything. This past summer, my slightly over 9 year WP dishwasher died...I got a Maytag that has a chopper and no filter. I LOVE it....The built quality is nice and it washes dishes and doesn't take forever. It gets really hot......I haven't pulled anything dirty out of it yet. I don't rinse anything and do 3 to 4 loads per week, so the dishes sometimes sit in the dishwasher and dry with stuck on food until it gets ran. I'm so glad I didn't get an Eco Whirlpool. I gotta say, I *almost* did...
I wonder how LONG it will be before Whirlpool does to the Maytag's what they did with Whirlpool dishwashers?
I was afraid of when my dishwasher died. I was afraid that by the time it was time to get a new one, there would be nothing on the market that was worth anything. This past summer, my slightly over 9 year WP dishwasher died...I got a Maytag that has a chopper and no filter. I LOVE it....The built quality is nice and it washes dishes and doesn't take forever. It gets really hot......I haven't pulled anything dirty out of it yet. I don't rinse anything and do 3 to 4 loads per week, so the dishes sometimes sit in the dishwasher and dry with stuck on food until it gets ran. I'm so glad I didn't get an Eco Whirlpool. I gotta say, I *almost* did...
I wonder how LONG it will be before Whirlpool does to the Maytag's what they did with Whirlpool dishwashers?
POINT VOYAGER DISHWASHER
Thanks for the scan of the WP Point Voyager Dishwasher. Very interesting read.
How long was this dishwasher (washing system) in production?
This sounds like most of the cycle behaviors of the WP / Kitchenaid line that do not have the filter.
Sounds very effective. And I love the fact that there is more than one rinse! Those of you that have this type of sensor washing....do you usually get more than one rinse on a given cycle?
Thanks for the scan of the WP Point Voyager Dishwasher. Very interesting read.
How long was this dishwasher (washing system) in production?
This sounds like most of the cycle behaviors of the WP / Kitchenaid line that do not have the filter.
Sounds very effective. And I love the fact that there is more than one rinse! Those of you that have this type of sensor washing....do you usually get more than one rinse on a given cycle?
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