bethann
New member
Just so you know the price on 30yr GAF, Timberline, High Definition shingles are 2862.30. For 35sq. That's not including tax, felt, water & ice, valleys, hip & ridge... and of course labor. And that's even boomed to the roof.
Roofing help?
- Thread starter perc-o-prince
- Start date
Yeah, here in the Bay Area we are quickly talked out of wood shingles not only due to fire issues but also because wood is so much more expensive than composition.
My $.02: 40 year composition (we got "Presidential" but can't remember the manufacturer) looks way better than 20 or 30 year. IIRC, 30# felt is more the standard. None of our quotes specified anything less.
What I've heard is that the ridge venting system is a joke. My sister had that done and it's not doing an adequate job. Another friend complains of the same thing. Our previous house had "eyebrow" vents that were replaced with the same type and that system worked well.
My mom's place was another story. It was heavy shake and the roofer was a somewhat fly-by-night guy who she preferred to use. A more professional firm gave a higher quote, but they included six eyebrow vents among other things. The guy she used said the attic vents (at the peaks of the stucco, not on the roof) were enough to ventilate. What a joke. With a 40-year comp roof and no actual vents, the attic becomes an oven on just an 80-degree day and the exhaust fan runs well into the night. The roof itself looks nice, it's the "Autumn Blend" that kind of suggests the multi-colored, although darker and muted, look of an old slate roof.
The contractor you use can make all the difference.
Ralph
My $.02: 40 year composition (we got "Presidential" but can't remember the manufacturer) looks way better than 20 or 30 year. IIRC, 30# felt is more the standard. None of our quotes specified anything less.
What I've heard is that the ridge venting system is a joke. My sister had that done and it's not doing an adequate job. Another friend complains of the same thing. Our previous house had "eyebrow" vents that were replaced with the same type and that system worked well.
My mom's place was another story. It was heavy shake and the roofer was a somewhat fly-by-night guy who she preferred to use. A more professional firm gave a higher quote, but they included six eyebrow vents among other things. The guy she used said the attic vents (at the peaks of the stucco, not on the roof) were enough to ventilate. What a joke. With a 40-year comp roof and no actual vents, the attic becomes an oven on just an 80-degree day and the exhaust fan runs well into the night. The roof itself looks nice, it's the "Autumn Blend" that kind of suggests the multi-colored, although darker and muted, look of an old slate roof.
The contractor you use can make all the difference.
Ralph
perk- have you had problems with the close to flat roof on the sunroom? I have a deck with very little pitch and went through a number of rolled roofing replacements. Then about 12 years ago I went with a rubber roof and it's great. I would never use rolled roofing on any roof less than 3/12 pitch from now on.
To be honest all your quotes seem high, but it may be the area you live in. I've only paid labot on one roof on a job I was doing, all the rest of the time it's just a family project - "Hey we're doing a roof on such and such a date" can't beat labor for the price of a few dinners.
Listen to Bethann, she's the pro.
To be honest all your quotes seem high, but it may be the area you live in. I've only paid labot on one roof on a job I was doing, all the rest of the time it's just a family project - "Hey we're doing a roof on such and such a date" can't beat labor for the price of a few dinners.
Listen to Bethann, she's the pro.
toggleswitch2
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 23, 2008
- Messages
- 5,000
Althought a tremendously long warranty is nice, if the warranty is not transferable to the next owner, it is of less value than one would believe.
Ditto if the firm BEHIND the guaranty goes out-of-business the warranty is of no use.
I paid through the @$$ to go with Home Depot. Turns out it was a great selling point to have a transferrable warranty.
They came the stripped the roof of four layers of roofing tiles/material (2 are the limit in my area) and were in and out in one day. I was at work, but the neighbors say there were workers everywhere like roaches.
In retrospect I could have spent less; and even the neighbors said I was smart to bring in Home Depot rather than their son the roofer struggle with it for, say, a week.
Much luck with your project.
Ditto if the firm BEHIND the guaranty goes out-of-business the warranty is of no use.
I paid through the @$$ to go with Home Depot. Turns out it was a great selling point to have a transferrable warranty.
They came the stripped the roof of four layers of roofing tiles/material (2 are the limit in my area) and were in and out in one day. I was at work, but the neighbors say there were workers everywhere like roaches.
In retrospect I could have spent less; and even the neighbors said I was smart to bring in Home Depot rather than their son the roofer struggle with it for, say, a week.
Much luck with your project.
sudsmaster
Well-known member
The flashing on the chimneys not only should be metal, it should be a special type of metal that is not corroded by the alkaline cement/mortar that seals it to the chimney. As I recall, the preferred metal is called Terne plate; it's a lead rich coating that is far more resistant that simply galvanized steel. Another option might be stainless steel if the terne is not available.
Ralph, ridge vents alone would be useless. They must be coupled with soffit vents, and the soffit vents should be on all sides, continuous. In fact, I've read that soffit vents alone can vent a roof, since the prevailing wind will create suction on one side of the roof that will draw air in one soffit side and out the other.
You might want to look into replacing your attic vent with a solar powered model... or adding a solar powered one.
Ralph, ridge vents alone would be useless. They must be coupled with soffit vents, and the soffit vents should be on all sides, continuous. In fact, I've read that soffit vents alone can vent a roof, since the prevailing wind will create suction on one side of the roof that will draw air in one soffit side and out the other.
You might want to look into replacing your attic vent with a solar powered model... or adding a solar powered one.
toggleswitch2
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 23, 2008
- Messages
- 5,000
My house had a walk-in attic with a window. I simply put a double window-fan in the window blowing in, controlled by a timer. Heat would be pushed out the ridge vent. It was inexpensive to do, inexpesnive to run, and a simple "go-green" option.
perc-o-prince
Well-known member
Is this a insurance job? NO
How many layers are on the roof now? 2
If it's one, are they three tabs ? And are they curling or do they break when you walk on them ? N/A
What is the pitch of the roof with shingles? 76/50/32 (how the hell do I know??!!!). Kidding! Hopefully the pix will help you see that.
Can you attach a picture? 5 coming up.
Reasons for re-roofing:
1) Had ice dams in front of house where there was one about 15 years ago, and a big one in the back that came down from the top back shed all the way to the interior of the downstairs back room (added-on). Want better ice protection.
2) Roof wood (boards) in back, on top shed, spongy.
3) Second layer on most of main roof put on by same ding-a-ling who put the rolled roofing above the screen porch. It had some small gaps that he "sealed" with tar. It leaked from the first year he did it. He also installed the ridge vents (have soffit vents in the vinyl siding).
WAY too much tar around the chimney, which is leaking. Need to have the chimney re-pointed and new flashing put in.
Bethann, let me know if we're thinking the wrong way with this, but we're thinking it would be better to do it all now where there's already evidence of a questionable job on the roof, and we had winter problems we hadn't really had before. One guy looked at some of the main roof and asked why we were having it re-done as the shingles looked pretty good on that part of the roof. That's a second layer, about 10 years old, and the workmanship is in question. We already have an open insurance claim for the interior damage the chimney leak did and we don't want any more top leak problems!
Thanks so much for your help,
Chuck
How many layers are on the roof now? 2
If it's one, are they three tabs ? And are they curling or do they break when you walk on them ? N/A
What is the pitch of the roof with shingles? 76/50/32 (how the hell do I know??!!!). Kidding! Hopefully the pix will help you see that.
Can you attach a picture? 5 coming up.
Reasons for re-roofing:
1) Had ice dams in front of house where there was one about 15 years ago, and a big one in the back that came down from the top back shed all the way to the interior of the downstairs back room (added-on). Want better ice protection.
2) Roof wood (boards) in back, on top shed, spongy.
3) Second layer on most of main roof put on by same ding-a-ling who put the rolled roofing above the screen porch. It had some small gaps that he "sealed" with tar. It leaked from the first year he did it. He also installed the ridge vents (have soffit vents in the vinyl siding).
WAY too much tar around the chimney, which is leaking. Need to have the chimney re-pointed and new flashing put in.
Bethann, let me know if we're thinking the wrong way with this, but we're thinking it would be better to do it all now where there's already evidence of a questionable job on the roof, and we had winter problems we hadn't really had before. One guy looked at some of the main roof and asked why we were having it re-done as the shingles looked pretty good on that part of the roof. That's a second layer, about 10 years old, and the workmanship is in question. We already have an open insurance claim for the interior damage the chimney leak did and we don't want any more top leak problems!
Thanks so much for your help,
Chuck
perc-o-prince
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bethann
New member
Hi Chuck,
Boy, you have places that just want to leak everywhere.
The majority of it needs to replaced, I would tear it all off. Unfortunately that's costly. The first layer is one price the second is another. That means 70sq of roofing to be removed. If they want to get picky they can add on more for two story and then more for the areas that are 7/12 to 8/12.
The most important thing of your whole job is proper flashing. Anywhere the roof meets the house it needs to be flashed and flashed right or it will leak. The best flashing known to man is copper. It isn't necessary. The next best thing is aluminum. Do not let then use galvanized. It will break down.
Your porch needs to be re decked. Depending on the spacing of the rafters. If it's 16 on center you can use 5/8, if it's 24 on center you need 3/4. I would probably use 3/4 regardless. It very important that the flashing is up under the siding. If there is a pitch to that roof, ( I can't tell from the photo ) you can use water and ice. It's a form of a rubber membrane.Then put regular shingles over that. If it's completely flat, It needs straight up rubber.
The top part of the roof, that looks to be 3/12 I would put water & ice at least six ft up. It looks like snow would just sit there. And down the rake three ft. in.
Three ft. in and across the bottom on the rest that's 7/12 to 8/12.
The chimney, if they tuck point it make sure they do the cap on the top too. It needs to be stepped flashed then counter flashed ( with aluminum that matches your roofing ). If they do it right the counter flashing needs to be two inches higher than before. They'll chalk a line and grind into the brick and put new flashing in. It will never leak again in your lifetime.
All the soil pipes need to be sanded and painted before the new roof goes back on.
As far as price... I don't really know the labor cost there, maybe things are higher. The big company's always charge for p/o, profit and overhead. I wouldn't say no to the little guy, he might do a better job. The bigger company's use the people that are not responsible enough to work on their own. Not alway's, but you get my point. Ask a lot of questions and find out exactly what your getting for your money. Then watch them as their doing the work.
I think I've covered everything.
PS. Make sure and keep your gutters clean, if you don't thing can't drain.
Boy, you have places that just want to leak everywhere.
The majority of it needs to replaced, I would tear it all off. Unfortunately that's costly. The first layer is one price the second is another. That means 70sq of roofing to be removed. If they want to get picky they can add on more for two story and then more for the areas that are 7/12 to 8/12.
The most important thing of your whole job is proper flashing. Anywhere the roof meets the house it needs to be flashed and flashed right or it will leak. The best flashing known to man is copper. It isn't necessary. The next best thing is aluminum. Do not let then use galvanized. It will break down.
Your porch needs to be re decked. Depending on the spacing of the rafters. If it's 16 on center you can use 5/8, if it's 24 on center you need 3/4. I would probably use 3/4 regardless. It very important that the flashing is up under the siding. If there is a pitch to that roof, ( I can't tell from the photo ) you can use water and ice. It's a form of a rubber membrane.Then put regular shingles over that. If it's completely flat, It needs straight up rubber.
The top part of the roof, that looks to be 3/12 I would put water & ice at least six ft up. It looks like snow would just sit there. And down the rake three ft. in.
Three ft. in and across the bottom on the rest that's 7/12 to 8/12.
The chimney, if they tuck point it make sure they do the cap on the top too. It needs to be stepped flashed then counter flashed ( with aluminum that matches your roofing ). If they do it right the counter flashing needs to be two inches higher than before. They'll chalk a line and grind into the brick and put new flashing in. It will never leak again in your lifetime.
All the soil pipes need to be sanded and painted before the new roof goes back on.
As far as price... I don't really know the labor cost there, maybe things are higher. The big company's always charge for p/o, profit and overhead. I wouldn't say no to the little guy, he might do a better job. The bigger company's use the people that are not responsible enough to work on their own. Not alway's, but you get my point. Ask a lot of questions and find out exactly what your getting for your money. Then watch them as their doing the work.
I think I've covered everything.
PS. Make sure and keep your gutters clean, if you don't thing can't drain.
bethann
New member
Something else. The ice damming issue. Check the insulation. The heat is rising in the winter months and if you don't have the proper insulation ice will form on the roof because of the heat in the attic and the cold temps outside. If your gutters aren't clean when it melts it can't drain then it creeps up the roof.
Hey Rich, I've seen the solar powered attic fans but they don't seem to move a lot of air. I do want to look into them because it would make economic sense over the longer term. Since this is a 40-year roof with about 30 left to go, that hard-wired fan will run itself to death in a fraction of that time.
Meanwhile, I could wring that guy's neck for not installing the eyebrow vents when it would be clear to anybody that they were absolutely necessary.
Ralph
Meanwhile, I could wring that guy's neck for not installing the eyebrow vents when it would be clear to anybody that they were absolutely necessary.
Ralph
sudsmaster
Well-known member
Ralph,
Is it possible to add vents at the soffits on your mom's house? My home has large enclosed soffits, and I retrofitted them with continuous soffit vents when I added lots of insulation to the attic. It has about five eyebrow vents which weren't enough. I had to use a 2" long drill bit to poke 1" holes in the soffits from inside the attic (minmal 4:12 roof pitch), and then used a circular saw to cut into the soffit enclosure from outside, then added the vent screens to that. It seems to work ok. The attic gets warm but not as hot as I remember it without the vents. The main reason for the vents, however, was to prevent condensation in the winter.
Is it possible to add vents at the soffits on your mom's house? My home has large enclosed soffits, and I retrofitted them with continuous soffit vents when I added lots of insulation to the attic. It has about five eyebrow vents which weren't enough. I had to use a 2" long drill bit to poke 1" holes in the soffits from inside the attic (minmal 4:12 roof pitch), and then used a circular saw to cut into the soffit enclosure from outside, then added the vent screens to that. It seems to work ok. The attic gets warm but not as hot as I remember it without the vents. The main reason for the vents, however, was to prevent condensation in the winter.
Hey Rich, no real soffits to vent here. We had those at our other house and with a combination of exhaust fan and eyebrow vents it really made a difference on hot summer days and evenings. Fortunately, the heat is concentrated upstairs at our place now. It's not at all sleep-friendly up there on a hot summer night but the downstairs stays relatively comfortable. I think eyebrow vents combined with the existing attic vents on the three peaks is the only solution, but I am going to look into a solar powered exhaust fan. Probably won't be spending any $ on this for the upcoming summer months as we on hold with improvements until we settle the estate with my sister.
Ralph
Ralph
perc-o-prince
Well-known member
Hey Bethann,
I'm going to send you a copy of the estimate Priority left (they're also the ones that left a reference sheet). Maybe you can tell me if you see anything wonky?
The local teacher with the husband/engineer/house builder hasn't bothered to get me any referrals, so I'll try calling a couple more in for estimates.
Thanks again all for the help,
Chuck
I'm going to send you a copy of the estimate Priority left (they're also the ones that left a reference sheet). Maybe you can tell me if you see anything wonky?
The local teacher with the husband/engineer/house builder hasn't bothered to get me any referrals, so I'll try calling a couple more in for estimates.
Thanks again all for the help,
Chuck
sudsmaster
Well-known member
Ralph...
It may look like there are no soffits... but every roof has them. I had to use two drills to poke holes in the soffit wall just under the roof sheathing. A spade wood drill to get through the wood backing, and then a masonry hammer drill bit to get through the exterior stucco layer. On the outside, it is all hidden from view because the soffits are enclosed. And of course I had to cut a slot in the enclosure panel to complete the ventilation, so the spalling of the exterior stucco is not visible from the outside. If the soffits were not enclosed I'm sure it would look awful.
Ideally the exterior wall would have stopped about 1/2"short of the underside of the roof sheathing... which allows a natural ventilation slot. It might be possible to use a diamond circular saw to open up the soffits through the stucco with minimal damage. Or use a carbide tipped hole saw for vent holes similar to what I did.
It may look like there are no soffits... but every roof has them. I had to use two drills to poke holes in the soffit wall just under the roof sheathing. A spade wood drill to get through the wood backing, and then a masonry hammer drill bit to get through the exterior stucco layer. On the outside, it is all hidden from view because the soffits are enclosed. And of course I had to cut a slot in the enclosure panel to complete the ventilation, so the spalling of the exterior stucco is not visible from the outside. If the soffits were not enclosed I'm sure it would look awful.
Ideally the exterior wall would have stopped about 1/2"short of the underside of the roof sheathing... which allows a natural ventilation slot. It might be possible to use a diamond circular saw to open up the soffits through the stucco with minimal damage. Or use a carbide tipped hole saw for vent holes similar to what I did.
One reason there is usually solid blocking from the top plate of the exterior wall to the underside of the decking is that structural engineers require it. The blocking accomplishes two purposes: it stabilizes the rafters and keeps them plumb, and it allows a transfer of loads from the roof diaphram to the wall. Look at a new house under construction and you'll see a nailing pattern from the roof deck into the top of this blocking, and frequently there will also be A35 clips on the inside from the blocking to the top plate. A continuous slot would preclude a good roof to wall connection. Usually engineers will allow a large hole or two to be drilled in each block to allow for ventilation into the attic, or perhaps a block left out here and there.
Achieving a proper structural connection between the roof deck and ridge beam is another big deal for engineers, which is one reason ridge vents often are such a pain to design. By the time the engineer is happy with lots of blocking and nailing at the ridge there often isn't much space left for a functional vent. For that reason I pretty much never specify ridge vents on my buildings, but instead use soffit vents at the lower level and gable or dormer vents at the upper level of the roof. Cutting holes for dormer vents isn't a big deal as they're rarely at the edge of the deck, which is where the integrity of the plywood is most important.
BTW, the new California Building Code (Title 24) is very tough on proper screening for any exterior vents if you're in a high fire zone; the vent screen can have no openings of more than 1/4".
Achieving a proper structural connection between the roof deck and ridge beam is another big deal for engineers, which is one reason ridge vents often are such a pain to design. By the time the engineer is happy with lots of blocking and nailing at the ridge there often isn't much space left for a functional vent. For that reason I pretty much never specify ridge vents on my buildings, but instead use soffit vents at the lower level and gable or dormer vents at the upper level of the roof. Cutting holes for dormer vents isn't a big deal as they're rarely at the edge of the deck, which is where the integrity of the plywood is most important.
BTW, the new California Building Code (Title 24) is very tough on proper screening for any exterior vents if you're in a high fire zone; the vent screen can have no openings of more than 1/4".
sudsmaster
Well-known member
The blocking will still stabilize the rafters just fine with a 1/2"slot between the decking and the wall. There is no nailing going on between the end of the wall and the decking, anyway, at least not on my home.
The amount of load that could be transmitted to the 1by wall from the decking would probably be minimal compared to that which comes down through the 2by rafters that are secured to the top plate of the wall. There is the occasional 2by block in some of the rafter bays... by no means all, more like every fourth or fifth one. Still enough for me to drill lots of 1"ventilation holes. And the screening is no problem. I purchased continuous vent strips, each 10'long, which have relatively fine louvers to keep out the larger insects. Home is not in a high fire zone so not too worried about the flame propagation through the vented but enclosed soffits.
However given the info about current code I'll probably not go up there during the reroof and sawzall out the wall to enlarge the vented area beyond that achieved with the 1" holes (three per rafter bay) into a rectangular large slot. I might try to clean them up a bit though. As it is, there's plenty of wall meeting the underside of the deck to provide what slight support it was doing before I drilled the vent holes.
The amount of load that could be transmitted to the 1by wall from the decking would probably be minimal compared to that which comes down through the 2by rafters that are secured to the top plate of the wall. There is the occasional 2by block in some of the rafter bays... by no means all, more like every fourth or fifth one. Still enough for me to drill lots of 1"ventilation holes. And the screening is no problem. I purchased continuous vent strips, each 10'long, which have relatively fine louvers to keep out the larger insects. Home is not in a high fire zone so not too worried about the flame propagation through the vented but enclosed soffits.
However given the info about current code I'll probably not go up there during the reroof and sawzall out the wall to enlarge the vented area beyond that achieved with the 1" holes (three per rafter bay) into a rectangular large slot. I might try to clean them up a bit though. As it is, there's plenty of wall meeting the underside of the deck to provide what slight support it was doing before I drilled the vent holes.
