Hi Thomas, Good Points, but I was not talking about your house or situation.
Happy Thanksgiving everyone, John
Happy Thanksgiving everyone, John
Rotisserie - Is it REALLY needed?
- Thread starter thomasortega
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Yes, each case is a case.
I think it's more related to the use time itself.
If I were building a house, of course I'd in lude NG for a grill, I'd probably consider NG for one of those ceiling heaters for the porch or balcony just because of the convenience of never having to drag the bottles to home depot. Safety also counts, not that propane is "more dangerous", but the probability of a leak or accident is natually higher if you have to constantly replace bottles, compared to an appliance you connect and forget.
On the other hand, there's the usage factor vs cost. Propane is more expensive, that's a fact. But if a grill is used not so often, and then comparing the installation costs or how much it would impact the construction costs, I'd try to balance. Depending on the situation, NG is the best choice (most cases) but if the usage isn't that high, it wouldn't make that much sense at all.
I think it's more related to the use time itself.
If I were building a house, of course I'd in lude NG for a grill, I'd probably consider NG for one of those ceiling heaters for the porch or balcony just because of the convenience of never having to drag the bottles to home depot. Safety also counts, not that propane is "more dangerous", but the probability of a leak or accident is natually higher if you have to constantly replace bottles, compared to an appliance you connect and forget.
On the other hand, there's the usage factor vs cost. Propane is more expensive, that's a fact. But if a grill is used not so often, and then comparing the installation costs or how much it would impact the construction costs, I'd try to balance. Depending on the situation, NG is the best choice (most cases) but if the usage isn't that high, it wouldn't make that much sense at all.
OK, Jon, I had to do some googling to figure out how many therms in a 20 lb propane tank (typical size for BBQ's).
First had to convert 20 lbs to gallons. Comes out to 4.5 gallons. Each gallon propane has .91647 therms. As I recall it cost me about $44 to fill up two 20 lb tanks. Thus, $22/tank. Or, 4.1241 therms/tank; at $22/tank that comes out to about 5.33/therm. Yes, much more than the $2.20 natural gas would cost going forward. More than twice. However... have to factor in the cost of extending the gas line to the nearest location under the house to service the rotisserie grill. I *may* have had that done about 15 years ago, but frankly I cannot remember now, so I'll have to dive under the house (crawl space) to find out; something I do not look forward to. If it's not extended as yet, I'll have to hire someone to do it (so it can be inspected/certified). So there is that cost. Then even if it was extended, will need to open up the piping to attach a fitting for the grill line. More expense. It's all doable, but so far this past year I may have spent $22 for one tank propane. And that's partly because I forgot to turn off grill last time I turned it on to dry out the cast iron griddle I had washed, so it ran wide open (one grill burner) for up to 2 hours. When I got to it, propane gone. Well, it was on its last legs anyway. LOL. Happens.
Anyway good point about relative cost of propane vs. natural gas. It's just not big issue for me at this time.
First had to convert 20 lbs to gallons. Comes out to 4.5 gallons. Each gallon propane has .91647 therms. As I recall it cost me about $44 to fill up two 20 lb tanks. Thus, $22/tank. Or, 4.1241 therms/tank; at $22/tank that comes out to about 5.33/therm. Yes, much more than the $2.20 natural gas would cost going forward. More than twice. However... have to factor in the cost of extending the gas line to the nearest location under the house to service the rotisserie grill. I *may* have had that done about 15 years ago, but frankly I cannot remember now, so I'll have to dive under the house (crawl space) to find out; something I do not look forward to. If it's not extended as yet, I'll have to hire someone to do it (so it can be inspected/certified). So there is that cost. Then even if it was extended, will need to open up the piping to attach a fitting for the grill line. More expense. It's all doable, but so far this past year I may have spent $22 for one tank propane. And that's partly because I forgot to turn off grill last time I turned it on to dry out the cast iron griddle I had washed, so it ran wide open (one grill burner) for up to 2 hours. When I got to it, propane gone. Well, it was on its last legs anyway. LOL. Happens.
Anyway good point about relative cost of propane vs. natural gas. It's just not big issue for me at this time.
bradfordwhite
Well-known member
Thomas
Considering how dry, hot, and flammable the state of California (and some other SW states) are right now,
and how dangerous things can be when an earthquake hits,
is it really such a good idea to have a potentially unlimited supply of highly flammable gas piped direct to one's home?
Considering how dry, hot, and flammable the state of California (and some other SW states) are right now,
and how dangerous things can be when an earthquake hits,
is it really such a good idea to have a potentially unlimited supply of highly flammable gas piped direct to one's home?
bradfordwhite
Well-known member
If one were going to spend the money it would be better to buy a solar system with in home battery. Something that can be used daily, is renewable, and safe.
For real estate resale purposes, natural gas lines will most likely become the new buried leaking oil tank/lead paint/popcorn ceiling/asbestos insulation/rail road tie as landscaping and buyers requesting them removed.
Consider yourself lucky to be limited to a simple 5 lb propane tank.
I've learned to check U.S. maps of where the largest oil lines are buried so I can plan accordingly. I would never consider buying a home that's within 1/2 a mile of a major pipeline or a celphone tower. Nor would I want to be too close to electric power lines.
When I lived in the Gainesville FL area, I was shocked to find a major (18" in diam. or larger) pipeline snaked right through a relatively new shopping area that I had been using. The line even went right down the center of a new apartment project that was being built. Big AVOID.
Don't know if a patio rotisserie and BBQ is worth the risk. I won't ever have gas lines in my home or even near it again.
https://pvnpms.phmsa.dot.gov/PublicViewer/
For real estate resale purposes, natural gas lines will most likely become the new buried leaking oil tank/lead paint/popcorn ceiling/asbestos insulation/rail road tie as landscaping and buyers requesting them removed.
Consider yourself lucky to be limited to a simple 5 lb propane tank.
I've learned to check U.S. maps of where the largest oil lines are buried so I can plan accordingly. I would never consider buying a home that's within 1/2 a mile of a major pipeline or a celphone tower. Nor would I want to be too close to electric power lines.
When I lived in the Gainesville FL area, I was shocked to find a major (18" in diam. or larger) pipeline snaked right through a relatively new shopping area that I had been using. The line even went right down the center of a new apartment project that was being built. Big AVOID.
Don't know if a patio rotisserie and BBQ is worth the risk. I won't ever have gas lines in my home or even near it again.
https://pvnpms.phmsa.dot.gov/PublicViewer/
Well...
To be more specific, since I moved to this house I've been through over 1000 microquakes (those so irrelevant that only if we really pay attention we can notice and even so, we think a heavy truck passed 1 block away), 5 or 6 Light-moderate quakes (Still irrelevant, but enough to instantly say "Ouch, an earthquake", but no drop under the desk), 3 or 4 moderate-strong quakes (again, not enough to cause any life threat, but strong enough to trigger the Shakealert and make me drop under the table (yes, there was some minor damage) and only two "WTF" earthquakes (coincidently less than 24 hours apart from each other on 4th and 5th of July 2019.)
In terms of "engineering" Yes, having gas, it doesn't matter if it's propane or NG, is "more dangerous" than no gas at all. HOWEVER, during the two major earthquakes (Ridgecrest 2019) and the other moderate-somewhat-strong quakes, the seismic gas valves worked beautifully. (Only annoyance is resetting the valves and relight the pilots later)
In one of the quakes, the worst I felt, the wall furnace cover panels (Williams, I hate that) fell and broke the tiny gas pipe that goes to the pilot, but the valve triggered a couple of seconds later. It was enough to smell gas, the alarms went off, but at the same time (i was under the table, a few feet away from it) i could hear when the seismic valve triggered and shut off the gas.
If that's not enough, the meter has one more valve. After that earthquake stopped, I evacuated an immediately ran to the meter to close the valve but it was already closed.
So imagining the worst case scenario, a "badass" earthquake strong enough to break the NG pipes. there's a valve on each point of use (Furnace, stove, water heater, dryer) plus a valve next to the meter. The only gas left is the gas that is in the pipes. There's a risk of course, but the amount of gas isn't huge.
With propane, IDK if there is any sort of seismic valve. With the barbecue grill, for example if a major earthquake happens, there's absolutely nothing to shut it off automatically, OTOH, the tank is protected on the bottom of the grill and it will move together with it... When I'm not using the grill (or the patio heater), I always close the tank valve and, if an earthquake happens when I'm using the grill, of course my first reaction will be check the grill.
We had a minor quake and I have two of the very best earthquake early warning systems one can ever have (Dolby and Miele) They "go off" and start crying and running erratically average 1 minute before an earthquake. It happened once when I was grilling two hamburgers for breakfast and because of their reaction I instantly closed the tank valve and ran away from the grill (only to discover a few seconds later that they overreacted because of a micro quake weaker than my farts.)
The worst earthquake I felt wasn't the Ridgecrest. It was a silly 3.7 points but the epicenter was immediately below me. It lasted maybe 3-4 seconds and made a huge mess. (coincidentally it was the one that I had a minor gas leak mentioned above). When it happened, there was no warning at all (except Miele and Dolby) and I was standing. For days I could feel some pain on my ankles and knees, I could feel it throwing my almost 250 lbs up. It felt like the whole house jumped 1 inch in the air. Now I can say how the drinks feel in the cocktail shaker.
Back to the point...
I believe a well designed NG system and also portable appliances that use independent propane tanks are somewhat safe during a major earthquake. THey are, indeed, more dangerous than having no gas at all, but I refuse to see them as a massive danger as some people may think.
Of course, there's also a big difference between a single family home and a tall building with hundreds of points of use so my opinion doesn't apply for that because even if there were valves splitting the whole pipe into several small segments, the NG pipe diameter is so wide that a big amount of NG could still leak.
To be more specific, since I moved to this house I've been through over 1000 microquakes (those so irrelevant that only if we really pay attention we can notice and even so, we think a heavy truck passed 1 block away), 5 or 6 Light-moderate quakes (Still irrelevant, but enough to instantly say "Ouch, an earthquake", but no drop under the desk), 3 or 4 moderate-strong quakes (again, not enough to cause any life threat, but strong enough to trigger the Shakealert and make me drop under the table (yes, there was some minor damage) and only two "WTF" earthquakes (coincidently less than 24 hours apart from each other on 4th and 5th of July 2019.)
In terms of "engineering" Yes, having gas, it doesn't matter if it's propane or NG, is "more dangerous" than no gas at all. HOWEVER, during the two major earthquakes (Ridgecrest 2019) and the other moderate-somewhat-strong quakes, the seismic gas valves worked beautifully. (Only annoyance is resetting the valves and relight the pilots later)
In one of the quakes, the worst I felt, the wall furnace cover panels (Williams, I hate that) fell and broke the tiny gas pipe that goes to the pilot, but the valve triggered a couple of seconds later. It was enough to smell gas, the alarms went off, but at the same time (i was under the table, a few feet away from it) i could hear when the seismic valve triggered and shut off the gas.
If that's not enough, the meter has one more valve. After that earthquake stopped, I evacuated an immediately ran to the meter to close the valve but it was already closed.
So imagining the worst case scenario, a "badass" earthquake strong enough to break the NG pipes. there's a valve on each point of use (Furnace, stove, water heater, dryer) plus a valve next to the meter. The only gas left is the gas that is in the pipes. There's a risk of course, but the amount of gas isn't huge.
With propane, IDK if there is any sort of seismic valve. With the barbecue grill, for example if a major earthquake happens, there's absolutely nothing to shut it off automatically, OTOH, the tank is protected on the bottom of the grill and it will move together with it... When I'm not using the grill (or the patio heater), I always close the tank valve and, if an earthquake happens when I'm using the grill, of course my first reaction will be check the grill.
We had a minor quake and I have two of the very best earthquake early warning systems one can ever have (Dolby and Miele) They "go off" and start crying and running erratically average 1 minute before an earthquake. It happened once when I was grilling two hamburgers for breakfast and because of their reaction I instantly closed the tank valve and ran away from the grill (only to discover a few seconds later that they overreacted because of a micro quake weaker than my farts.)
The worst earthquake I felt wasn't the Ridgecrest. It was a silly 3.7 points but the epicenter was immediately below me. It lasted maybe 3-4 seconds and made a huge mess. (coincidentally it was the one that I had a minor gas leak mentioned above). When it happened, there was no warning at all (except Miele and Dolby) and I was standing. For days I could feel some pain on my ankles and knees, I could feel it throwing my almost 250 lbs up. It felt like the whole house jumped 1 inch in the air. Now I can say how the drinks feel in the cocktail shaker.
Back to the point...
I believe a well designed NG system and also portable appliances that use independent propane tanks are somewhat safe during a major earthquake. THey are, indeed, more dangerous than having no gas at all, but I refuse to see them as a massive danger as some people may think.
Of course, there's also a big difference between a single family home and a tall building with hundreds of points of use so my opinion doesn't apply for that because even if there were valves splitting the whole pipe into several small segments, the NG pipe diameter is so wide that a big amount of NG could still leak.
Still on earthquakes and gas leaks....
San Francisco, 1906 - It was a real inferno. Not only gas leaks starting fires, but also the "technology" available at that time, plus the water supply also affected, hydrants had no water.
Loma Prieta, 1989 - Yes, there were some fires, but nothing compared to 1906.
Northridge, 1994 - One or other fire (less than in 1989)
Ridgecrest, 2019 - ONE fire, literally... and it was put out before the firefighters arrived.
It means that we learned something regarding prevention, right? California isn't "perfect" yet, there's still a lot to be done in terms of retrofitting buildings to prepare for the "big one", but every major earthquake has shown us we're improving.
A massive disaster like San Francisco in 1906 will probably never happen again.
San Francisco, 1906 - It was a real inferno. Not only gas leaks starting fires, but also the "technology" available at that time, plus the water supply also affected, hydrants had no water.
Loma Prieta, 1989 - Yes, there were some fires, but nothing compared to 1906.
Northridge, 1994 - One or other fire (less than in 1989)
Ridgecrest, 2019 - ONE fire, literally... and it was put out before the firefighters arrived.
It means that we learned something regarding prevention, right? California isn't "perfect" yet, there's still a lot to be done in terms of retrofitting buildings to prepare for the "big one", but every major earthquake has shown us we're improving.
A massive disaster like San Francisco in 1906 will probably never happen again.
bradfordwhite
Well-known member
"When it happened, there was no warning at all "
Nope, there certainly isn't. Unlike storms and rain you can't predict when the earths plates will shift.
When I lived in Northern Calif. from mid 2012 to mid 2015 there were several smaller quakes that happened. I was living in a tiny home/RV the whole time I was there fortunately. Having the rubber tires to cushion ones home really makes a difference. These houses that are built slab-on-grade are just asking for problems.
There was a quake one evening. I got up from the desk and on my way to the kitchen I felt like I was losing my balance but it was a quake. I checked the quake center and sure enough it was 45 miles away.
An hour later I heard what sounded like a freight train crashing not far away and the entire home gently bounced. lol. I was sitting down for that and it was kind of fun. No damages as it was a slow bounce. The only way I would ever live in an earthquake prone area is with the home on rubber shocks or tires.
Rubber cushioning devices is what they're trying to implement in Calif. but it's costly. Mainly focusing on heritage buildings so far.
I pray Calif. gets it's rain and can recover from drought. I left Calif about 6 weeks before a big fire hit in the area in Aug. 2015.
L.A.'s got to divert the LA river instead of allowing all that fresh water to be wisked out the ocean. It's such a waste. For the couple of months it does rain during the rainy season all that water is enough to feed LA for an entire year. But that's another issue.
Nope, there certainly isn't. Unlike storms and rain you can't predict when the earths plates will shift.
When I lived in Northern Calif. from mid 2012 to mid 2015 there were several smaller quakes that happened. I was living in a tiny home/RV the whole time I was there fortunately. Having the rubber tires to cushion ones home really makes a difference. These houses that are built slab-on-grade are just asking for problems.
There was a quake one evening. I got up from the desk and on my way to the kitchen I felt like I was losing my balance but it was a quake. I checked the quake center and sure enough it was 45 miles away.
An hour later I heard what sounded like a freight train crashing not far away and the entire home gently bounced. lol. I was sitting down for that and it was kind of fun. No damages as it was a slow bounce. The only way I would ever live in an earthquake prone area is with the home on rubber shocks or tires.
Rubber cushioning devices is what they're trying to implement in Calif. but it's costly. Mainly focusing on heritage buildings so far.
I pray Calif. gets it's rain and can recover from drought. I left Calif about 6 weeks before a big fire hit in the area in Aug. 2015.
L.A.'s got to divert the LA river instead of allowing all that fresh water to be wisked out the ocean. It's such a waste. For the couple of months it does rain during the rainy season all that water is enough to feed LA for an entire year. But that's another issue.
1) Natural gas lines now have automatic shutoff devices in case of quake, to prevent uncontrolled release of flammable gas.
2) Many older homes have had seismic retrofits, which lower earthquake insurance premiums. I did my own such retrofit on this home, built in 1941, about 15 years ago. It consisted of installing bolts through the framing sill plates into the concrete foundation about every four feet, and then installing 1/2" plywood panels at the building corners and spaced along the foundation. I had it all inspected and it did appreciably lower my earthquake coverage rates. The bolts are there to help prevent the entire structure from sliding off its foundation in a major shake.
3) Electricity for heating is not necessarily safer than natural gas. The devasting fires in the eastern part of the state in the past decade were mostly started along high power electric lines strung from east to west. PT&E's faiure to manage the forest growth around these lines resulted in trees falling into the lines, sparking, catching fire, and then setting entire communities like Paradise ablaze. There is a push to relocate such lines underground. But, guess what? Most gas transmission lines are already underground, and it is rare one hears them of setting off blazes.
2) Many older homes have had seismic retrofits, which lower earthquake insurance premiums. I did my own such retrofit on this home, built in 1941, about 15 years ago. It consisted of installing bolts through the framing sill plates into the concrete foundation about every four feet, and then installing 1/2" plywood panels at the building corners and spaced along the foundation. I had it all inspected and it did appreciably lower my earthquake coverage rates. The bolts are there to help prevent the entire structure from sliding off its foundation in a major shake.
3) Electricity for heating is not necessarily safer than natural gas. The devasting fires in the eastern part of the state in the past decade were mostly started along high power electric lines strung from east to west. PT&E's faiure to manage the forest growth around these lines resulted in trees falling into the lines, sparking, catching fire, and then setting entire communities like Paradise ablaze. There is a push to relocate such lines underground. But, guess what? Most gas transmission lines are already underground, and it is rare one hears them of setting off blazes.
Just throwing this out there as not everyone is in the know, but back around 2008 when petroleum prices were quite high, major propane retailers reduced their fill from 20 pounds to 15, rather than hike prices. Unfortunately, they never adjusted this after the fact, and never widely publicized it, so check the fine print the next time you do a cylinder exchange. You may be paying (a premium) for a 3/4 fill.
Since I happen to like (and want to keep) the newish pair of cylinders I bought for our travel trailer, I make it a point to have them filled up by an actual LP service, but many hardware stores and filling stations offer this service as well. I usually pay <$15 for a full 20 pounds. If you have a Costco nearby, they'll do it for $9.
Since I happen to like (and want to keep) the newish pair of cylinders I bought for our travel trailer, I make it a point to have them filled up by an actual LP service, but many hardware stores and filling stations offer this service as well. I usually pay <$15 for a full 20 pounds. If you have a Costco nearby, they'll do it for $9.
I wasn't aware Costco filled propane tanks.
Recently I filled up two 20 lb tanks at the local gas station for $22 ea. So I'll be checking Costco next time.
Also just checked my existing tanks. They are all exprired. So it sound like it's exchange time! On the plus side, the two I got at Costco have led a sheltered existence: kept out of the rain, under cover, and refilled maybe once every couple of years. I have a third one I picked up from the curb that refilled ok and is now installed in the BBQ. As soon as it runs down I'll check the date on that one too. I've read it can be cheaper just to replace than recertify anyway. And a lot of recertification apparently is just a visual inspection. We'll see! The last guy to refill these a couple of months ago didn't say a word about them being expired, so go figure.
[this post was last edited: 11/28/2021-05:09]
Recently I filled up two 20 lb tanks at the local gas station for $22 ea. So I'll be checking Costco next time.
Also just checked my existing tanks. They are all exprired. So it sound like it's exchange time! On the plus side, the two I got at Costco have led a sheltered existence: kept out of the rain, under cover, and refilled maybe once every couple of years. I have a third one I picked up from the curb that refilled ok and is now installed in the BBQ. As soon as it runs down I'll check the date on that one too. I've read it can be cheaper just to replace than recertify anyway. And a lot of recertification apparently is just a visual inspection. We'll see! The last guy to refill these a couple of months ago didn't say a word about them being expired, so go figure.
[this post was last edited: 11/28/2021-05:09]
