Scott McClellan....WAY TO GO!!

[oxydolfan1]

"The Black people were not welcome in the White church. They were made to sit in the back, and looked down on. So the Black church was born as the people were not welcome at the White church."

Not nowadays, they're not! And not in my church!

So let the past GO because, if you don't, you'll be as responsible for what divides us all as the most virulent white supremacist.

"I was born and raised catholic (White church), so I know all about your faith. What they teach, and preach, the members do not follow."

Oh, what a flat-out stupid thing to say! You have no way of knowing that, everybody has their own way of maneuvering through life and reconciling their beliefs with what happens in their lives. NO ONE toes the line perfectly, and few do it well, but I'm here to tell you things have changed radically, or, frankly, I wouldn't feel welcome there.

"Being gay a huge sin."

Wrong, on the face of it. To BE gay is no sin, and it's possible to be out and open if you want (depending on the parish).

To ACT on being gay is the sin, but what I'm seeing is that an unintended positive effect of the priest scandals is, they've had to take a major "STFU" on gays living their lives.

I predict not only full acceptance of gay "lifestyles", but actual marriage equality, in the church, on the altar, within the next ten years. They have no choice, financially and demographically.

Come to think about it, the catholic church seems to think they are experts on members (and non members) sex lives.

What do you mean?

Yet the members keep coming back every Sunday, even though they do not follow the rules set by their church.

The biggest part of Catholicism is going to Mass and taking Communion weekly. I don't go every week (on Sunday anyway), and rarely take Communion (I'm usually not in a state of grace, lol!), but I think we see the whole concept differently, because the legalisms are not as important to me as what I can give of myself to Christ himself, and the spiritual relief and understanding I do derive from it.

So why don't the members of the White church leave?

That's my point. There IS no white church.

It's the blacks that choose to self-segregate, even though the years of them needing to are long gone.

I think it is because of the promise of ever lasting life.

I don't know. I don't think you can ever know what is in someone else's heart. We think we can, but the reality is more complicated.

People try to separate the junk teachings from what is usable from most any church, Black or White. People that attend church feel as though they must attend services to be able to go to Gods Kingdom when they pass away. I do not think that this is true. I feel that if one has a relationship with God they will enter Gods Kingdom when they pass away.

I think so too, but thinking doesn't always have much to do with faith, so, who knows?

I do not attend any church, but I try to give people a break that do attend. (unless it is a really screwed up chruch like westboro)

I'm outspoken about evangelical atheists driving people crazy as well, but I do agree that folks need to stop trying to evangelizing people, because I believe it's a magical thing, the spirit that comes into one's heart, very personal...you either have it in your heart or you don't, but church folks need to know that they DRIVE people away by preaching to them.
My belief is, LEAVE PEOPLE ALONE! The best way you can demonstrate Jesus' love, IMHO, is to never discuss it directly, but LIVE your life in a kind, decent, gentle, and wise way.

Members are not should not be blamed for what "junk" the church preaches.

There, you're wrong. There are no shortages of churches in Chicago, what Wright, Pfleger, and to a lesser extent Moss are throwing out there, is vicious and racist and wrong.

Now can you imagine what the Right would be saying about Obama if he were like me, and did not attend services at all???

My guess is, nothing, because you'd be like McCain, who has a church but apparently rarely goes, and Bush, who, contrary to popular opinion, NEVER goes to church!

In Barry's case, it's more a matter of what "black liberation theology" is all about. An unintended consequence of the exhortations of, "Well, how can you criticize it, if you don't know what it is about?", was that white folks and others DID check into and learn what that particular theology is about.

A lot of liberation theology is rooted in profoundly Marxist concepts, and that's what reinforced the opinions of those of us on the more moderate side of the left to realize Obama's political outlook on so many issues are way farther to the far-left end of the spectrum than we felt comfortable about.

That position on the scale among black politicians is familiar to us New Yorkers, so many of us started backing her, but there were problems and issues with Obama supporters which I'm not going into here popped up, so a certain number of us decided to bail on the party as a result.

It really is a no win situation for the Left, as the Right has held the "rights" to christian church for the last few decades.

The right got into the same kind of fanaticisms and legalisms they always do, just with religion, and they're miserable with their politics AND their religion, because they mixed them, like fire and water.

My feeling is, avoid that blueprint.

As far as the election is concerned, we ain't seen NOTHING yet.

 

[gansky1]

Oh, don't get me started on "churchies"! ;-)

I agree with Dan, much of this Wright and Pfleger "controversy" is contrived. Media attention is on the light show, the flash and bang - not the real news. If it bleeds, it leads is a very correct mantra for the mainstream media. For the most part, most of this nonsense they spew forth 24/7 is just that; nonsense and should be, for the most part, ignored.

Those who spout opinions like "Barack should have left that church and isn't qualified to make decisions based on good judgement because he sat there and listened..." is just shortsighted and immature. I remember being in Lutheran Sunday School classes and being taught that tolerance, love and forgiveness were the foundation of Jesus' teachings and it rings pretty pathetic when I hear those who claim to be such good, upstanding Christians cannot bear to apply these principles to their own lives. Shame on them. Few of these ranting fools even bother to stop and think for one minute that perhaps the members of Wright's congregation listened to the rantings and ravings of his sermons every Sunday but in their hearts felt he was wrong. What choices are they left with? Leave the fellowship of the church and the extended family and friends they had built over many years or stay and be a voice of tolerance, love and forgiveness - values that they have been taught to aspire to? The history of black churches and the African-American community is very long and most of it has been quite tragic. They have much to be bitter about if you stand back, shed your preconceived notions about who these people are and really look at the history and how someone like Rev. Wright could come to feel the way he does. It's foolish and shortsighted to automatically assume that because a people are called "free" means that they have all the same opportunities and enjoy the same acceptance as everyone else in a society - we all know in our hearts that this is just false.

The interesting thing about this Clinton/Obama debate that is brewing and people taking "sides" in the also media-contrived fight is that in the end, there will be only one result. The Democratic party is split and increasingly we are hearing people say "If Hillary isn't the nominee, I'm voting for McCain and defecting from the party" or similarly ridiculous comments from the opposite side. The truth of the matter is, if you feel you have been slighted because the person you supported does not become the nominee and you must vote against your own best interests and those of your country, then do so knowing a few key things. The Iraq debacle will continue unabated, the economy of this country will continue it's downward spiral and the debt of future generations will continue to rise exponentially. Let this blood be on your hands and accept what you get. A vote for McCain will accomplish all of these things but most importantly, it will forever remove your right to complain about the policies and actions of his administration once and for all.

If this battle for the Democratic nomination continues on past June 3 and all the way to the convention, which by all indications is exactly what Hillary intends to do, there will be very little likelihood that regardless of who the Democratic nominee is, McCain will have had over a seven month head start on the general election campaign - using that time to unify his party around him, raising money and pointing a bony figure in the direction of the Democratic party and calling them bumbling idiots and mocking their scuffles to the delight and amusement of millions. Historically, when there is no clear nominee prior to the Democratic convention, they ALWAYS lose the general election to the Republican cadidate. McCain is merging his campaign with the RNC which means he will have access to many millions of dollars with which he will be able to literally trounce the Democratic nominee, no matter who it is. Much talk has been made about Barack's ability to raise money - small amounts from many people, raising money three-to-one compared to Hillary, etc. All of this means nothing when you look at how much was raised in just a few weeks through the RNC. It also doesn't matter how bitter of a taste all this money-talk leaves you with, the truth is that money and clear, organized campaigns win elections and the democrats will again be left with their banners swinging in the wind when the headlines in November read: MCCAIN WINS!!

As far as Spanky McClellan is concerned, I think it is just a bit too little and too late. I hope he is subpoenaed before the Judiciary Committee and will give sworn testimony to the accounts he presents in his book. Even if it goes no further than that, at least the "record" will indicate the truth about the Bush administration and history can judge them accordingly as over 70% of the country does now. I would like to think that justice will be brought down on the guilty and we can show the world, and ourselves, that in a true democracy that exists "of, by and for the people" these actions we have seen will not be tolerated from anyone in our government and that our system does work to check and balance itself. Not always - maybe not as we'd like, but that it at least does work. I have my doubts, but we cannot give up hope or our democracy will surely perish.

 

[oxydolfan1]

"I said that I was born and raised as a catholic, which is a White church."

No, it is NOT a "white" church!

The very word "Catholic" means "universal"!

Growing up, my parish in Brooklyn was 95% black.

It just wasn't "black-identified" (and I think that's a good thing!)

 

[brettsomers]

Id love to see Hillary with softer eyebrows and a proper eye makeup. She could look really good.

Mrs Obama wears too much makeup overall.

 

[rickr]

Whatever oxy. The fact remains that the catholic church is a White church. I have never known of a mostly Black catholic church. The catholic church has never had a Black pope.

And I have had enough of wasting my time talking about churches. Later Oxydude. <:

 

[dalangdon]

Actually, there's a black Catholic church in Omaha. A good friend of my mother goes there.

 

[beadsobleach]

Politics and Religion

If there's one way to get the blood boiling. Amazing 230 years after separation of church and state, we haven't budged an inch.....

 

[~sudsshane]

Greg~

"Barack should have left that church and isn't qualified to make decisions based on good judgement because he sat there and listened..." is just shortsighted and immature".

"If Hillary isn't the nominee, I'm voting for McCain and defecting from the party" or similarly ridiculous comments from the opposite side.

I have given my opinion and have politely debated with other members who disagreed with me, never chastising their opinions. I really think it is unfair of you to say my opinion is shortsighted and immature.

As for voting for McCain, I do plan on doing that and know many Democrats, especially in my once again disenfranchised state of Florida, who plan on doing the same. Like it or not, the Democratic Party is severely fractured because of this primary. I predict the anger and disenfranchisment of Clinton supporters will continue all the way to Election day.

 

[jeffg]

I'm a registered independent and am watching this from afar, but judging just from people I know (most of whom are Democrats) I don't see their party as being fractured. It's simply a battle of bliss, between people who're finally going to get the change they've been desperate for, and those who want revenge for the last eight years of Bush/Cheney atrocities.

But "like it or not", Democrats and Republicans aren't going to decide this election, just like they haven't decided the last several elections. To independent and swing voters McCain has all the appeal and charisma of overcooked asparagus, and as incredible as it seems he's still running on a platform of "four more years" -- of catastrophe. Bush has already proven to be political poison, and it's going to be the biggest rout for Republicans since Goldwater in 1964.

 

[oxydolfan1]

"The fact remains that the catholic church is a White church."

No, it is not. That's not a FACT, that's YOUR racist judgement.

You've had negative experiences with the Church in the past, and personal preferences in the here and now that make it
convenient to hide your scorn for the Catholic Church by writing it off as "white", which you are actually using as a perjorative.

You have a chip on your shoulder about racism, and you project it upon anyone that stands up against being tarred by your broad brush. Don't even try to pull that down on me.

"I have never known of a mostly Black catholic church."

Well, obviously you don't get around too much, and I'm betting that, if afforded the ability to actually visit black communities with large numbers of Catholics, churches would be low on your list of sightseeing choices anyway.

None of that has ANYTHING to do with me, and if YOU'RE the one who wants to build exclusionary walls right down the center of American life and culture, fine and good.

Just don't attribute your own unacknowledged racist to me (and please, no childhood horror stories, we're all of an age where that should be over and done with).

"The catholic church has never had a Black pope."

Is that a requirement for the Church to be worthy of respect?

And how do YOU know there wasn't a black pope?

Lots of Italians have African blood! There are no photographs of the early popes, that we should be able to know this!

Un-be-fuckin'-lievable.

"And I have had enough of wasting my time talking about churches. Later Oxydude."

No problem, rick. Always a pleasure.

 

[oxydolfan1]

"As for voting for McCain, I do plan on doing that and know many Democrats, especially in my once again disenfranchised state of Florida, who plan on doing the same. Like it or not, the Democratic Party is severely fractured because of this primary. I predict the anger and disenfranchisment of Clinton supporters will continue all the way to Election day."

Me, too, shane.

It took me a while to get used to the idea, but we didn't ask for Barack Obama, and I'm thinking McCain is the least dangerous way to go, and best for the country right now.

Sigh.

 

[pturo]

Bush Administration is EVIL

They have never one day worked for the American People.
Don't blame George Bush, he is a complete idot and a pawn. Blame DICK Cheney, the biggest dick in Washington. Bush could not mastermind his way out of a paper bag. Cheney has run this country. They shrudely took all of our suffering and pain of 911 and packaged it it to propaganda to Iraq and to go to war, when no one in Iraq was involved in 911. Weapons of mass destruction were invented, and the evidence was pre dated to become current dated to get Congress to delare war.

Can you imagine working for a company like the Bush Whitehouse or Enron during the scam and discovering midway that things are so fucked up and untrue and trying to be a whistleblower? You would be crucified. Free press is the only outlet for people trapped in corruption after they resign. So they make money on the book. So does CBS,NBC,ABC,C-Span and everone else who reports it, but his story needs to be listend to. He is an insider.

Why is Bush now on his 4th press secretary? Because things have gone well?

OH, and Condi Rice, a black woman and a Republican denying Scott Mclennean's assertaions? Condi should be on Oprah apoligizing for being black, a woman, and a Repbulican, and claiming she wont do any of the above again.

 

[oxydolfan1]

 

[panthera]

I am deeply offended

by the charge of racism you, oxydalfan1 have leveled at rickr.
My late husband was of a different race than I am and we, too, had to listen to the biased bigotry of people such as yourself.
How dare you imply that his love is "a thing going on", what effrontery to impute a "chosen black context" that he is "living".
'Twere enormously better you openly stated your objections to miscegenation than to pretend such high moral ground as you do.

When people fall in love and chose to live together, it is the business of no-one else (except, perhaps, any children for whom they still stand in parentis or in loco parentis) why they love and how they live.

Over the last months I have seen an alarming increase in nastiness from some people towards others here. Certainly, I have said and done things which hurt people. For that I have apologized. Some, however, had taken their anger and hatred beyond the usual snipping and cattiness of our dearly belovéd queenly community.

I took some weeks off recently to avoid a flame war. It didn't hurt me one little bit. For many of us, Automaticwasher.org is very much a real community. The welfare of this community is dependent upon our treating each other with respect.

Threats of legal retribution, calling people racists, Nazis, assholes...all these actions and words have nothing to do with respect and everything to do with hatred.

We aren't just in danger of losing wonderful people (no fear, I am so not in that category), we already are. No need to name names and it wasn't only American members who left.

I have promised myself to restrict my blogging on controversial topics to a minimum. After this, I intend to continue doing so. This beating up on people who don't share one's own views right down to the very last crossing of "t"s and dotting of "i"s is unhealthy. It's one of my weaknesses which I battle constantly. It is not reassuring to see that I am anything but alone.

 

[~sudsshane]

So Sad~

What is really sad here is we, as fellow washer members, cannot have a spirited and respectful debate without attacking each other.

If you have a problem with another member, or what their opinion may be and you find if difficult to respond respectfully, I think it should be privately emailed to that person. Everytime a controversial topic is brought up, the same thing happens. No respect for differing opinions. I think this type of behavior is showing Robert a great deal of disrespect for the time,money and effort he puts into this site.

Something for everyone to think about.

 

[rickr]

Well Shane, I am sorry. However I do not feel as though I am at fault here. If read my posts you can see that I posted nothing to deserve being called racist. I am racist toward whites now??? Come on!! Last night I was at a Gay party that no blacks were at. Someone there asked me where my nigga was. I left that go because the guy that said it was drunk.

So yes, I do see racism every day. If I take the boyz with me to most any store, security will follow us around as we shop. That is what I would call racism. As I said before, if you do not live within the Black Community, you may not know that racism is still alive and well.

Again, I am sorry Shane, but I am NOT the one that is racist here.

 

[~sudsshane]

Hi Rick~

I understand what you are saying,but this is not about who is or is not a racist. I think you are missing my point. My point is that if somebody says something another person doesn't like,the first thought is to disrespect or attack the other member. I will say it again, I think ANY personal attacks,sad as they may be,should be left to private e-mail.
It is not fair to Robert or the other members of this club to have to deal with this.

I like you very much Rick and find you to be a genuine person. I don't condone anyone calling you a racist since I know for a fact you are not. You have been more than helpful to me on more than one occasion and I thank you for that. You support Obama, I support Clinton, but that doesn't and shouldn't change our opinions of each other or the respect we have between us.

I think at this point it is probably best to let this thread end before things really get out of hand.

I hope everyone will agree with me. =)

 

[rickr]

I think you are correct Shane.
It is a beautiful day and I am taking the boyz swimming at my sisters house. She has a very nice pool and we are bringing the pizzas and ginger ale.

Have a great day everyone! <:

 

[nmaineman36]

Wow this thread has taken a few turns thats for sure...spirited I would say so! As Miss Clairee would say on Steel Magnolias....If you have nothing nice to say come sit by me! Dahlinks your all pretty...now back to the program.

 

[gansky1]

A spirited political debate need be neither respectful nor civilized. Perhaps that's what this country needs more of is a good old fashioned debate - pounding fists on the table, throwing chairs and letting it all out. I meant no personal attacks on anyone with my previous posting, and if you read closely, I did mention that the shortsightedness and immaturity is present on all sides and I still find it repulsive. That's my opinion and I don't apologize for it. Shane, you freely put your opinion out there in your postings and didn't email privately when you mistakenly took mine for a personal attack on you. I didn't get a private email as you suggested to everyone else, my slap came out in forum - for everyone to see.

I know Rick personally, we've talked many times about all ranges of subjects and I can pretty much guarantee he isn't sitting in a corner, wringing his hands and pulling out tufts of his hair because of any comments on this forum! I really don't see the harm in Oxy calling things as he sees them - that's his opinion and Rick is also free to call things as he sees them and counter other opinions - that after all, is what "spirited debating" is all about.

Most of us come here as friends and choose to be involved in discussions of varying subject matter. There are many threads I see daily that I just choose not to even read or follow closely. I'm holding the mouse and if I see something I don't like I don't click on it. If I see a thread with a political title, I know when I click into it that it quite likely won't be a Ladies Aid Society meeting with dessert and coffee.

 

[jeffg]

Discussions about politics (or religion) are rarely civilized, but they're always pointless, and always degrade into nothing more than two or more entrenched camps of vitriol and closed-mindedness.

Seriously, when was the last time you heard of someone changing their politics because of an online discussion? Have you ever heard of anyone doing that?

Just utterly pointless, and that's what elections are for. I'm sorry for getting involved and contributing to the problem.

 

[~sudsshane]

Greg~

"Shane, you freely put your opinion out there in your postings and didn't email privately when you mistakenly took mine for a personal attack on you. I didn't get a private email as you suggested to everyone else, my slap came out in forum - for everyone to see".

I have never attacked you Greg and as you are well aware, I apologized for misconstruing your comments, here in the forum, and in a personal email to you. I have emailed you on several occasions over the years only to get one brief response after that specific incident. I thought you and I were friendly and on good terms,not sure what to think now.
I always try to keep Robert in mind when posting threads or responding to a thread. When I see somebody abusing this privilege we all have to post on this site, I always try and remind people that we are all guests in Robert's home. I am deeply appreciative to him for creating this site and sharing it with us

And...I would never refer to you or your opinions as immature or unreasonable. You quoted what I said and and followed with the above statement.

"A spirited political debate need be neither respectful nor civilized"

Well, I disagree again. Especially when we are using Robert's website as a forum to put our opinions out there for all to see. If you want to keep this debate going, that is fine, email me and I will be happy to respond. I am done posting my thoughts here.

 

[pturo]

"Opinions are like washing machines, everyone has one"
Phil