Semi- commercial Dishwasher?

[mattl]

A friend of mine is working on designing a church kitchen.  He's looking for dishwasher that is not quite commercial in nature but can withstand heavy use.  Does not want the typical commercial machine that shows up in schools and restaurants, as the use wont be that heavy.

 

Any suggestions?

 

[henene4]

Don't know the US options, but Miele has a line of professionell machines designed for such situations.

Look Like the last-gen TOL model with spiced up pump and heating.
Shortest cycle time would be about 20min on 240V, but have 120V versions too (shortest cycle 60min).

But Miele is a touchy subject in the US due to sparse service Rollout.

https://m.mieleusa.com/professional/dishwashers-430.htm?mat=09310400&name=PG_8080_i_[120V]

 

[launderess]

https://www.google.com/search?q=com...wY98KHQ5mBvcQrQIoAjAEegQIBRAK&biw=853&bih=561

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/316248/choosing-residential-vs-commercial-dishwasher

Those two pretty much sums things up. Once you go with "semi" anything it usually means some sort of compromise.

One would suggest a through examination of what this church wants and needs from a dishwasher. Do they plan on doing banquets, dinners, soup kitchens, etc..? Anything which involves large amounts of dinnerware needing to be processed relatively quickly?

What is the power supply? More importantly what do local health codes (if any) speak to whatever plans (again banquet, dinners, etc... for the public) say.

 

[fan-of-fans]

Can't really contribute to any suggestions, but do you by any chance know what other equipment they're going to be using?

 

[superocd]

An old Hobart KitchenAid

Seriously, I don't know why coffee shops, diners, etc. couldn't use these back when they were sold instead of true commercial undercounter tank machines. They clean well and they last. The only caveats of using one today is that you will not get the "less than five minutes" wash and the parts may be a bit hard to get a hold of as time goes on.

A Whirlpool PowerClean might be an option, too. Parts may be easier to come by.

I couldn't imagine employing a low water use, fishtank-pump DW for anything more than residential use. I have a low water use, fushtank-pump Whirlpool Gold DW that washes well, however, I do have to "hold its hand" a bit to get it to perform to that level, like rinsing everything (I know that these use turbidity sensors but quite frankly, the machine couldn't handle dishes loaded straight in without rinses and scraping, so I gave up on relying on the technology), using a premium detergent (where before, a generic detergent worked just fine in the non-environmentally friendly DW I had before) and having to use Hi-Temp and Sani Rinse for every cycle. I add a couple tablespoons of chlorine bleach to aid in sanitizing, but that's my OCD.

As a contrast, the Frigidaire that was original to the house (a slightly better version of the builder's grade model, no less) was made a few years before the low water models came out and washed well without any hand holding, and the water was set to 120 deg F.

I have never heard of a true commercial dishwasher that is designed for domestic use and vice versa. Commercial DWs have to meet rigorous NSF standards and 99.99999% of health departments will not accept the use of a residential dishwasher in a licensed food establishment. Churches may get away with that requirement since they don't sell food. With the advent of low-water-use, fishtank pump-powered DWs, I could definitely see the reason for that.

 

[mattl]

Well, from what I understand the kitchen will get occasional use, not heavy by any means.  It's a decent size and can accommodate a moderate sized gathering, that is why the discussion of a DW that is a bit more robust than a residential model.  From what I gather it will be raised up a bit, but they are not interested in a commercial machine.

 

No talk of open to the public or soup kitchen use, or even renting it out  as far as I know.

 

[askolover]

I've been considering a Hobart I found on CL for $150 just for the experience of it.  Don't need it, just want it.

 

[jamiel]

Not sure you can pass sanitation inspection without a commercial (either heat or chemical) dishwasher. I just last night was downstairs at my church and noticed that after a flood they ripped out the old kitchen which included a Colt Auto-San dishwasher and replaced it with an under-counter Jackson commercial machine. Played around a bit with it.

 

[launderess]

Colt Auto San Dishwasher: https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?38994

Back on topic....

So long as this church is sticking with planning to use that kitchen for "domestic" purposes only, I'd just go with whatever quality/TOL domestic dishwasher they can afford and be done with things.

If not going to prepare large meals that will be served to pubic, and or catering, don't see the point of "quasi" commercial dishwasher.

Miele has such a thing, but it is rather dear for what one is getting. http://pdf.archiexpo.com/pdf/miele/g-8050-semi-commercial-dishwasher/11736-38293.html

 

[superocd]

What kind of Colt Autosan and about how old?

Anything with Colt Autosan stamped on it must've been really old. If I remember correctly, Vulcan-Hart acquired their foidservice division in the late 50's, early 60's. From what I understand, Colt's foodservice division consisted of dishwashers and mixers (Automix). Sounds like they were trying to directly compete with Hobart!

I would love, love, love to see a Colt Autosan in the flesh, even if it's just abandoned in a field somewhere. Some of the really old ones were made of copper or "Monel metal" instead of the usual stainless steel. Apparently they were rather simple (just a pump that channeled water through stationary spray manifolds) and a chain driven conveyor, but those were definitely produced before the advent of NSF certification standards (NSF was founded in '44) and so probably all of them are gone without a trace since health codes probably couldn't approve these for use once NSF standards gained traction. Their racks were made of rustproof wire and believe it or not, wood. The OCD side of me is thinking "how gross!" but the engineering nerd side of me wants to hold one in my hand.

Some of their designs were strange looking. Their earlier flight machines didn't look like a typical stainless steel "box" that everyone has seen. It's hard to explain, but it didn't look like a dishwasher. It looked like some massive, weird contraption you'd find on a factory floor. I am not near my computer but I have a picture of some of their machines ca. 1925. I'll upload it when I get home this evening.

 

[lorainfurniture]

I recommend either getting a commercial 2 rack dw like a Hobart or something, or just buy a $299 ge dishwasher. The commercial one will obviously last longer and clean quicker , but the $299 special uses plenty of water and is surprisingly reliable. I recently serviced a pair of them in a similar situation (women’s shelter or something like that), the dishwashers got used 3x a day 7 days. 5 years later the one needed a soap door repair and the other one needed a new door gasket.

When the $299 dw breaks you can have a new one installed about 10x faster than a service guy could fix it.

 

[launderess]

Another thing

If these church people don't want the bother of pre-rinsing/washing dishes, then just go with a good domestic dishwasher.

You probably can find a "quasi" commercial DW that will suit their purposes, but what basically are you getting and at what cost.

What is the point of purchasing a "bullet proof" dishwasher meant to last the duration, and or otherwise give "semi professional" performance when the thing will be used maybe a handful of times per week?

 

[superocd]

Tsk-tsk on me...

Yesterday, I made a promise to upload a picture of the old Colt Autosan dishwashers featured in a catalog ca. 1925 and I completely forgot about the obligation I had made. I apologize.

Well, I remembered and found the picture of the catalog page featuring Colt Autosan dishwasher. It's a page out of Sweet's Catalogue. I don't have this catalog, unfortunately. This is a just a picture of the page. It's all I could find on Colt Autosan dishwashers.

I've yet to see one turn up on an auction site. I check auction sites for these kinds of things from time to time. I have surmised that Colt Autosan dishwashers have evaporated into thin air. Nobody collects commercial equipment (though, if I ever win the Powerball, I'm going to change that *IF* my wife will let me, lol) and so once an old piece of equipment has outlived its usefulness, it is sent out to pasture, or rather the scrap metal shredder.

Since these dishwashers were mostly constructed of copper, they are all surely long scrapped and gone, probably by the '60s at the latest is my guess. These dishwashers predated the days of NSF standards too, so I'm sure they eventually had to come out in order to meet health codes.

Then there's the quandary of part availability. Colt Firearms decided to rid itself of its foodservice division to Vulcan-Hart in the early '60s, and my guess is that the earliest of the Colt Autosan machines wouldn't be supported by Vulcan-Hart, since 30-40 years would have passed before then. I don't know what the intended lifespan of a dishmachine was ca. 1920-1930 but I'm guessing it would be 10 years, though I did read a book that documented the furnishings and fixtures of the Alcatraz prison. Apparently, they were going through dishmachines every three or four years. I recall reading about their acquisition of a Champion dishwasher in the late 40s and it needing to be replaced due to a leaking tank by 1950.

Anyways, look at CD-3 on the left. It's a really early flight machine. That was the dishwasher I was referencing yesterday. It looks like some kind of massive, strange-looking factory machinery, a bit menacing. It has some interesting geometry to it. I would love to have had the opportunity to see and hear this beast running.

 

[superocd]

Here's a closeup of the CD-3

Pretty cool, huh?

 

[launderess]

Who loves ya baby?

 

[launderess]

Yes, sadly many Colt Auto San units were cut up for scrap:

https://www.electrical-contractor.net/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/152381/45_Caliber_Dishwasher.html

https://www.electriciantalk.com/f24/old-motor-starter-59113/

 

[superocd]

I think that machine you posted there used the metal wire/wood dowel racks I was talking about earlier. I just don't know how wood would hold up in such an extreme environment. Moisture, heat, chemicals, and then there's the issue of bacteria and fungi since after all, wood is an organic material. But that's the interesting thing about how things were engineered in days past. You can see that they really tried in the days where AutoCAD was not even imaginable.

On the CD-3 I posted, you can see the motor almost directly below the discharge side of the machine. The rotor/stator seems to be really exposed because of the open ends on the face of the motor, and at least on the drawing there doesn't seem to be any shielding. Yikes.

 

[launderess]

Early industrial washing machines

Used wood for the inner (and IIRC some cases) outer cylinders of H-axis washers.

Chemicals used then included soap, washing soda, TSP, STPP, oxalic acid, a long with some other pretty nasty/harsh stuff. Yet the tubs held up remarkably well.

IIRC one problem with using wood for wash tubs and so forth was it had to be kept moist or would warp and crack.

That being said don't imagine wood was the most sanitary thing, hence move to metal or porcelain on steel.

 

[superocd]

I heard about early mechanical washers being made of wood, but I just assumed those were domestic wringer-type washers made out of somebody's barn with a wooden barrel and a spare gas two-stroke engine or electric motor.

I never knew that there were H-axis industrial washers with wood drums. That's crazy. I'm guessing that this was late 1800s because I'd see no reason for the drums of an industrial machine NOT to be crafted from pressed sheet metal...Correct me if I'm wrong.

I would love to see how an industrial washer constructed of wood worked. Obviously they'd not be of the same caliber of the machines today or even ones from the 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's, but it would be cool to see nonetheless.

I do know that some earlier industrial washers were "open ended", meaning that laundry attendants removed sopping wet laundry from the drum, transferred it to an extractor, then started a water only cycle for rinse, and then it went off to the extractor again before it hit the dryer. Supposedly some industrial front loaders were manufactured in this configuration until the 60's (maybe late 60's?). My guess is that the reason wash-only washers were made like that for so long was because the costs of a fully automatic washer/extractor was too prohibitive for some buyers like a mom and pop motel, small nursing home, etc.