Sick Miele F/L

[nickuk]

My parents called me the other day, concerned that their Miele FL washer is on the way out. It's about 15 years old and I think is called `Premier Plus'. The drum makes a terrible `metal on metal' type sound when rotated by hand. When she played it to me down the 'phone it sounded as though hell was freezing over! Think nails down a blackboard etc - horrible. Limitations of the 'phone line acoustics will, of course, be at play here.

Oddly it's fine when doing a cycle and immediately after a cycle the drum rotates (by hand) as smoothly as ever. It's after a couple of hours that the noise reappears as the drum is rotated by hand and then doesn't go away again until another cycle is run.

It's hard to diagnose over the phone. They're ready to replace it but (despite the fact it's had a reasonable innings) that would be a shame if it's a simple fix. The machine still looks good as the day it was bought and Mum has religiously descaled and looked after it. She is absolutely not an over loader but she does use those Ariel capsules (though adds Vanish powder for whites).

I have come to the conclusion that it may be something like early signs of bearing / spider failure, but I wondered if anybody else had encountered a similar problem and could advise? Sorry it's not much to go on. I guess it could also be something trapped between inner and outer drum but that doesn't correlate with the noise only occurring on an empty drum rotated by hand several hours after the cycle has finished. She ASSURES me it sounds `normal' when running and I have checked that by `normal' she doesn't mean a roaring / rumbling / dog scaring din she may have gotten used to - aka bearing failure. **Scratches head **

Thanks for sticking with me, all comments welcomed.

 

[henene4]

Sounds like a lubrication issue with the bearings.
Replacing them all together would be the best bet, though quite a time consuming job to carry out.

No other issue springs to mind that correlates to stand time...

 

[rolls_rapide]

@nickuk:

That sound's like my mum's Bosch, aged 12-13 years old.

The Bosch machine sounds okay with water in the drum - even when birling the drum to unload the clothes. The noise occurs when the tub and drum are aired out. And it is 'metal on metal'. I can only imagine the bearings are worn out and rusting.

The thing with the Bosch is, it's not only the bearings on the way out. The dampers are too, as are the plastics - fascia, door surround, powder drawer - they're producing that acetic acid smell - and the plastics which came into contact with detergent are rough to the touch. The motor is on its third set of carbon brushes, and the pump is making a rattling sound more often now.

When it get to stages like this, it's easier to buy a new machine.

 

[vacbear58]

Nick

It is funny you mention that now as I am having a similar sort of problem with my Miele FL which is just over 14 years old. In my case its not so much like metal on metal as it sounds like the drum is rubbing on the boot. It had sounded fine on washing but Mike, who was working in the washer room on Monday while it was working reported that it was having difficulty spinning. Need to get a diagnostic to see if it the bearings but if so, well I have no complaints as it has run this far without missing a single beat. As its almost vintage now I will probably get the bearings replaced but not use it as a daily driver - its not like I dont have 50 - 60 other machines to choose from

Al

 

[henene4]

Rubbing on boot

When there are rubbing sounds that are continuous, it usualy is either the bearings or drum spider.
If the rubbing sound is metal, plastic or rubber like really dosen't make a difference there; just depends on what the drum is rubbing on.

If the rubbing noise goes away after operation, it usualy comes from something that changes during operation.
Best examples are dryer rolers. If they age or get deformed or such, they often sound verry rough until the machine warmed up.
In case of a washer, there are scenarios where moisture can get in the bearing and influence the lubrication. Either more moisture gets in during the cycle or movement redistributes the lubricant again.

 

[nickuk]

Thank you

Al, Henen and Rolls for helping me.

Based on what you've said, I called Miele tech just to get an idea on bearing replacement. Spoke to a lovely / really helpful lady who basically just said to `forget it' and replace the machine. She said that 15 years is reasonable, whilst volunteering herself that it had fallen a little short of the 20 year expectation. I agree - especially since it's a two person household.

I must admit I am a little disappointed in the brand but perhaps I'm being unreasonable. Rolls, your Mum's Bosch is 12 and sounds on it's last legs but that's only 3 years younger than this Miele, and the cost new would have been about half? I really have always thought so highly of B/S/H and continue to do so. My wife's parents' Bosch quit at about the same age. I have a Siemens which is 7 years old but hasn't missed a beat and is such a lovely machine to use. And that has had HEAVY use; it's not uncommon for me to do 8 / 10 loads a day. It now shares the load with an AEG so has a slightly easier life. The AEG is tolerable but a POS in terms of build quality compared to the Siemens.

Back on topic - Miele tech lady said the bearing replacement is 6-8 hours labour and I must say I saw a video on YouTube last night and didn't much fancy having a go at all!! I think me Dad would probably rather have a potter round his greenhouse too!! I feel bad about sending it to landfill but I guess if it was a Vestel / Candy etc it would have been in there 10 years already :-/

I'll just say this in case it's of any interest to you guys - the kindly Miele tech lady told me that the best (way cheapest) place to buy Miele is to drive to Abingdon (Oxfordshire) which is something like a Miele outlet? Let me know if you want more info - she did give me more but I won't prattle on needlessly as y'all might know about it anyway.

Thanks once again for the help.

Nick

 

[henene4]

One thing to consider is that it might not make a huge difference wheather it's a 4 or 2 person household given that laundry is seperated.
Bearing lifetime is calculated bases on revolutions, not load per se. As long aa you do not overload the bearing, it dosen't matter all to much how much it is loaded.
So a 2 person household might run the same number of cycles as a household twice as big, just that they only run half loads.

Only thing to really tell if it fell short of its eatimated life time is the operation hour counter which is barely readable on machines without display.

6-8h is a bit overestimated for a skilled technician, but 3h is a good bet.
With Miele service rates, that is north of 500 what ever currency.

Miele pricing is a thing.
Miele gives everybody the same rebates for the most part. So just asking around a bit and comparing is the best bet.

I use idealo here in Germany (there is a UK version) to quickly see the best online offer for what ever product I want to check.

 

[launderess]

Here in USA Miele will *NOT* do a bearing replacement onsite.

Washer must be packed up and sent to their shops in Princeton, NJ.

Depending upon circumstances (in warranty or out) owner would have to pay for transportation to and from, along with parts, labor, etc.....

Needless to say MieleUSA discourages all but in warranty bearing replacement jobs.

For the record they aren't thrilled about doing replacement of brushes for motors on some older Miele washers either. These would be any of the older series with front only access where pretty much entire motor has to come out in order to do the job. There are other ways round such as going from underneath, but techs nowadays aren't keen on that either.

Am dreading the day when my 1070 finally does need new brushes. Miele has made it clear will be on my own since neither for love nor money will they take the unit to Princeton, nor do the job onsite.

The response from tech above to "buy new" is a common one from MieleUSA as well. Once a machine reaches a certain age despite Miele's supposed "20 year" or whatever guarantee, they really try to beg off doing any major service.

Head of MieleUSA repair/tech department offered one a discount on a new machine if would get shot of the W1070 and not bother them again. Am not the only one who received such an offer either.

 

[brisnat81]

Hi Al,

Out of curiousity, is yours a 3xxx series machine?

My 2xxx series still have no bearing issues at 13-15 years. All of my 3xxx machines have either had a bearing replacement or they need one. Miele did two of them at the 8 year mark under their extended warranty and in both cases ended up replacing the spider and the backplate in addition to the bearings.

In both cases the inner drum started to rub on the boot, with no other noise.

Regards

Nathan

 

[henene4]

The Primavera Plus should be a 2000 series, if not a late 400 series model.

 

[nickuk]

I wonder, Henen, if in my parents' machine it could just be a perished door boot which has started to disintegrate and rub against the inner drum? Perhaps this is wishful thinking. The machine door is always ajar between washes but maybe 15 years is quite a long time for a door boot? I will check with them if the noise is coming from the back or front of the tub although as you say, if the bearings are failing the tub may be rubbing the door boot anyway as it starts to drift out of position.

Also I got the model of the machine wrong - it is `Prestige' not `Premier'.

 

[henene4]

That should have a display

It is a series 500 machine, should be model W562.

You can enter the service menu to check the runtime hour counter (keep in mind that is not accurate to the minute and only counts full hours).
Do this at your own risk, though.

If I'm not mistaken it should be a simple procedure, only the timing is tricky. I could be wrong though and this method might not work on these machines, but then you simply wouldn't get in the service menu.
You turn the dial to the 12 o clock position, turn the machine off and close the door.
You hold down the Start button while switching the machine on.
The light next to the start button should flash rapidly for a few seconds, then turn off fow a brief moment.
While the light is off, press the Start button 3 times and hold it on the third press.
As soon as the light comes back on, let go of the button.

This should put you in the diagnostic menu.
Turning the dial clockwise position by position, one of the first 3 should display H followed by several numbers. You might have to press Start once when you are on the position that shows the H.
That's the number of full hours of operation (for example, if the machine runs for 59min, this counter would not be increased).

If the sound is metalic, than I don't think it's the boot.
If the machine does sound normal during operation though, I don't see an immediate reason to replace the machine.
Your parents could at least wait until a good offer for a machine of their choice comes up or to just save up so they could get a nice new Miele (with the PowerWash 2.0 system, for example).

 

[nickuk]

Thanks

Henen - it is indeed the model you suggest. If I were there I would have a go at the diagnostic mode. I might try to get Mum to do it over the 'phone, and have a stiff drink ready for when the call ends! Do you just switch it off and on again to exit diagnostic mode?

Brisnat thanks for your comments - really interesting that when two of your Miele machines needing bearings at 8 years the only symptom was the drum scraping the boot. I'll bet that you run your machines double the amount my parents do, so if theirs has started at 15 years old it all makes sense......

Laundress - thanks for taking the time to contribute. Interesting that the Miele US tech team advise the same as the UK team. I guess what jars with me is that this is the opposite of (what I thought were) their values. Why does it have to cost more to replace bearings than buy a new Miele? It seems SUCH a waste. This machine really has not been hammered and 15 years to me (or 8 in the case of Brisnat) is just `meh'; it doesn't justify the purchase price and the esteemed brand.

Thanks again all

 

[henene4]

Yeah, just off, wait a few seconds, turn back on to exit any mode back into normal operation.

 

[rolls_rapide]

"Your parents could at least wait until a good offer for a machine of their choice comes up or to just save up so they could get a nice new Miele (with the PowerWash 2.0 system, for example)."

Maybe the Christmas/January Sales?

 

[launderess]

"Why does it have to cost more to replace bearings than buy a new Miele? "

One supposes somewhere someone has sat and crunched numbers with result being outside of warranty work some repairs aren't worth bothering.

Despite the aforementioned "20 year" or whatever marketing Miele puts out, once a machine reaches a certain point in terms of use or age; at least on this side of pond Miele considers it "old", and or not worth bothering about.

For the older Miele washers all that cast iron (cradle and even motors IIRC), makes it a very heavy and difficult to service some older machines. Coupled with the front only access it really is best to use some sort of harness/crane to lift out drums. There are other ways but maybe out of practical or legal reasons Miele just doesn't want to know. Yes, they are aware of various DIY jobs on Youtube or whatever, but again they don't feel those persons are "techs", so that's Miele for you.

It took two grown men (Miele techs) about two hours to replace four suspension springs on my older Miele. This included tons of sweat, cursing, moaning about the thing and "why do you keep this old machine anyway?", and a few bruised fingers/thumbs.

Spoke once with a young new tech via Miele customer service out in California. While never having seen an older (W10XX) series washer in field, part of his training included being taught and tested on how to take apart, rebuild/repair those huge cast iron motors. He went on to say he'd "never want to do that on site".

The older Miele techs have had pleasure to speak with out of Princeton (what there is left of them), who know and appreciate older washers have said same. One volunteered he nearly put his back out attempting to get that big cast iron motor out via front of machine (brush replacement/repair), and wouldn't do it onsite again for love nor money.

As stated by others, Miele bases washing machine life not upon age per se; but use in terms of hours or whatever. Thus a washer from 1990's that has seen only two or three loads per week, and never overloaded would be considered "younger", than something from same period that was frequently ridden hard and put away wet.

Here in USA Miele is (or has had)a dickens of time in recent memory finding qualified persons to become techs. As thing stand their repair/service force isn't that extensive. Often techs are dispatched from NJ to points east far as Massachusetts or even further. Ditto going other way (west). Heaven help those who live in small areas with no local service.

Finally must speak to Miele's *ahem* attitude. Maybe it is a German trait or whatever, but often contacting customer service is like going into battle. One will be told "the machine cannot be doing that". Or "you do not know how to operate machine". Or even better "what have you done to the machine that it is doing this....".

After going back and forth for a bit Miele will finally agree to send out a tech. After waiting two or more weeks for the call out event to happen, lo and behold repairman finds yes, machine is doing what one said originally. Now comes fun part as *another* appointment must be made to do the actual repair. If repair person does not have required part on their truck or personal storage, it must be sent for from New Jersey. If NJ doesn't have said part or parts in stock they must come from Germany. All this while one is left without a useable appliance that cost very dear for weeks on end.

From all above you can see how Miele just as well give a customer discount on new washer/appliance and be done.

 

[rolls_rapide]

"As long as you do not overload the bearing..."

That's all well and good - if the machine is able to perfectly balance its load for the spin cycle, each and every time.

I'm sure we've all encountered loads which can be in perfect balance one cycle, yet the next time you try to wash that same load again, it balls up and causes an almighty racket. No doubt putting extra stresses upon the bearings too thus shortening their life even quicker.

 

[richnz]

Its not a bra wire?

That can make the noise you described.

Bearings can be quiet when the drum is rotated by hand. If the spider has gone then there will be concrete crumbs in the filter and the drum doesn't move in a circle when turned by hand.