Single Knob Front Loaders

[foraloysius]

#57

I think that timer wouldn't work. Either you want something really very basic, then there are way too many programme selections. European frontloaders with a timer that goes all the way around would have only a few settings, the differences being in the temperature.

But most single knob timers have several different segments, they don't go the whole way around, just a part of it. One segment is for cottons, one for permanent press, one for delicates. Often there would be a fourth segment for wool too. The differences are in wash rythm, water level and length of the programme. Within the segments there would be several temperature choices.

Main reason for this is that a hand wash programme in the same segment as for instance cottons is that hand wash needs a lot of water and little tumbling. The rinses would need to have the same tumbling pattern then too. But with little tumbling the cottons don't get rinsed well enough.[this post was last edited: 10/21/2022-04:51]

 

[Chetlaham]

12 Wash Programs

Ah, but here is my secret. The only difference between these 12 programs is the wash time.

Sanitize at 38 minutes, Normal 20 minutes and hand-wash at 6 minutes. The temperature of the water is determined by the cycle time before the heater shuts off at about 4 minutes at the end of the wash.

The rest of ok for most fabrics. The tumble is at 60 RPM and spin at about 600 RPM, even delicate fabrics are safe.

I don't think much is gained from varying wash rhythms and water levels. All cycles should keep the clothes out of a wet-nap state and with plenty of water to control cloth to cloth friction.

 

[rolls_rapide]

Different wash rhythms

They're there for a reason. Different fabrics require different wash processes.

Cottons, linens, some polycottons: all require maximum agitation, low water level. Temperatures of 40°C and upwards, depending on dye colour fastness. Fast spin for efficient water extraction.

Nylon, polyester, and some synthetic mixes: medium agitation, higher water level 40°C - 60°C. Slow spin to prevent/reduce creasing.

Delicates, such as acrylics: reduced agitation, high water level, 30 - 40°C, slow spin to prevent creasing.

Woollens and silks: much-reduced agitation, high water level, at 30 - 40°C. Slow to medium spin to remove most of the water.

 

[Chetlaham]

Can the most aggressive agitation of a front loader compare to the delicate agitation of a top loader? Does water level make a noticeable difference in the finished wash load?

I'm aware that different wash actions and speeds are made to cater to different fabrics, but I'll go on a limb and say (at least from a US perspective) that at least some of it is arbitrary or offer no return in added machine complexity.

 

[rolls_rapide]

Machine complexity

These days it doesn't matter - it's all controlled by electronic microchips.

Where you could say there has been an increase in complexity, is in the motor controllers of modern machines, where they have brushless motors.

The amount of copper wiring in a modern machine has probably drastically decreased, compared to old electro-mechanical timers and their associated wiring looms.

Tub-type top loaders have, perhaps, had their day. Not terribly water efficient. And you have to remember, front loaders and top loaders are two different beasts.

Top loaders are more aggressive on the fabrics (agitator or pulsator rubs against the laundry). Front loaders typically use a 'lift and drop' system.

 

[foraloysius]

Although the wash action of a toploader is more agressive, a frontloader needs more time to do a load. Besides that if you would wash a woolen sweater on a cotton programme it will definitely be destroyed. Washers with only one wash rythm are a thing of the past.

Some other points: 50 rpm is a rotation speeds that you see more often with older European frontloaders. Modern electronic ones can vary much better. With 60 rpm lighter items might stick to the side of the drum. Further a spin speed of 600 rpm is totally out of date. Those don't sell anymore. The minimum spin speed for a frontloader here in the NL is 1200rpm. In some southern European countries you may find some 1000rpm el cheapo models, but they only sell there because line drying goes fast there.

 

[Chetlaham]

The woolens cycle is shorter yes, that way the heater is on for only a a short amount of time.

You would be correct, the spin speed is low and the tumble speed based on older machines. The idea is since the washer does not have any electronics or complex ramp-up sequences, it relies on passive suspension and passive methods to deal with potentially unbalanced loads.

The way I see it efficiency is traded for longevity, durability and reliability.

Electronics are in part what did the Maytag neptunes in.

 

[Chetlaham]

Electronic Microchips

This is exactly what I'm trying to avoid, my primary motivation behind wanting to experience mechanical front loads. A timer can last over 40+ years. Further, with me sticking to fewer speeds and sequences the wiring is reduced to that of an electronic machine.

The thing is, the US could have easily pulled off a front load version of the center dial Maytag Dependable had R&D not set a goal of drastically exceeding top load performance. A front load spinning at 600rpm is a less ambitious goal than on at 1,200 rpm.

Imagine a FL washer capable of lasting 60 years due to not having a transmission, brake or tub seal immersed in water. Onboard heater would allow for the two port hot & cold water valve to be converted single cold inlet but with two valves in series advertised as flood prevention like on the Maytag dishwashers.

One can only wish.

 

[foraloysius]

Shorter is not enough for woolens. Designing a timer with several sections shouldn't be much more complicated, the connections are just different.

A low spin speed front loader would never sell here. Efficiency is the biggest selling point nowadays. I think you're missing the connection to the market.

 

[Chetlaham]

How does the woolen cycle work in Europe?

I know I'm missing the EU market, but I'm hoping that in the US someone would want to try a no none sense EM front loader.

 

[statomatic]

I've done tons of such timers & schematics drawings, creating my own wash programs or improving existing models, that's a fun brain game since you have to think how does the machine will work and how to make it electrically safe with the less switches & wires.

I've made my own wash cycles using Crouzet Millenium PLC, on a cheap machine :

Also plan to do that on another machine with a Mitsubishi FX PLC and variable speed motor and electronic sensors.
But I prefer anyway the good old durable mechanical timers.

Timed heating looks simple but it's in fact very complicated, the final temperature depends of water inlet temperature and sometimes also by the fill time.
It could be long to calculate, you need the heater power, water volume & temperatures and don't forget to add the heat loss (funniest part if you want precision, or just consider 5% of heat loss at low temperatures and 10% at high temperatures).
For a precise temperature on timed heating you'll need at least to start the timer motor when the tub is filled or even when the water has warmed up to 30°C (water level switch and 30°C thermostat in series with the timer motor during wash, then thermostat bypassed during rinses).
Or use an adjustable thermostat but you'll need a second knob, or use multiple thermostats with radio style push buttons.

 

[DADoES]

 
One-knob / timer-only is too restrictive.  Electronic controls can be too restrictive with combinations of options.  I've mentioned in the past that I want a machine with a pillows cycle that can heat to a reasonably high temp such as 120°F or 130°F and a long wash/soaking period but has very minimal tumbling that flips the item(s) every couple mins.

 

[gizmo]

Actually timed heating was common on European front loaders of the 70s and 80s.

They used a simple single-temperature fixed thermostat such as 40 degrees, when that tripped the heating continued for a certain known time to boost the temperature further to a calculated 50 degrees or 60 degrees. This was simple and cheap, but not really accurate as it didn't allow for different load sizes.

So different timer positions were were different temperatures, the lowest one was 40 degrees and the timer would pause till the 40 degree fixed thermostat was satisfied, then heat further, controlled only by time, if a higher temperature was selected.

 

[foraloysius]

Here's a wool cycle of a recent Bosch frontloader (newer than 2005 as the name of the Youtube channel suggests).



Chris is right, not every temperature was controlled by a thermostat. I remember some Zanussi models had a 40 and a 90 degrees thermostat. The 60 degrees setting was time controlled. The Dutch consumer organisation tested one of those and it appeared that with a small load temperatures would go way above 60 degrees.

If you want to get acquainted more with the machines available on the European market, here's a link for you. Curry's in the UK has a huge assortment of laundry appliances.

https://www.currys.co.uk/appliances/laundry

 

[Chetlaham]

Oh, designing cycle sequences is the most fun! I guess I'm going to have to email you soon. Can you post some of your work and cycle sequences on here? And tell me more/how you adapted that PLC to the machine?

I have great appreciation for such work.

 

[Chetlaham]

Couldn't/Wouldn't more water prevent those woolens from damage in a normal tumble action? Maybe you're woolens are different, but in the US those would go on the hand-wash or knits cycle of a top load washer:



Maybe I'm thinking more about delicates than woolens...

Anyways, the temps will vary, that is a given, however I would accept that on behalf of the machine's simplicity.

 

[statomatic]

Thanks, I design cycle sequences since more than 15 years, mostly for fun.

On the first picture it's a screenshot of Crouzet Millenium programming software when doing some tests.
The cycles are close to the Brandt Statomatic 418 (the service manual is on my website) with some differences (fill & drain are not timed, heating is controlled by 3 thermostats).
The machine used for the experiment was a very cheap Faure LFE101 (with a plastic door instead of glass !) with poor performance, so I took out the timer and wiring, installed an electric box with the PLC and some relays & breakers, replaced the thermostat and pressure switch and rewired the whole thing.

Also tried Frankenstein experiments by installing a different timer on a machine (on the two other photos I was 14 years old when doing the first experiment).

 

[Chetlaham]

You have a much needed gift! I used to do similar things where I would take Potscrubbers and various washers adapting different timers to them just for the sake of experimentation.