Smiths gauges and Lucas electrics

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cfz2882

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was a british car fest locally and that got me wondering if lucas and smiths are still in business supplying the UK car industry-newest "proper"british car I saw at the fest was a 1990 jag and it still was lucas and smiths.I know the reputation of lucas,but I had a 1971 lucas alternator on my saab 99 for years and it never gave even a flicker of trouble.Lucas must have been one of the first companies to produce an electric radiator fan as I noticed a '65 XK-E had an electric fan-two bladed,looked more like an airplane prop than the automotive fans I am used to seeing.
 
People who own British cars in America, especially classic ones, just laugh when you ask them about the reliability of Lucas & Smiths equipment. It's like "Where were you when Lucas or Smith's let you down?"

At one point when the Space Shuttle was being designed, they approached Lucas to supply some of the electrical assemblies for the shuttle.

It seems if you are British, you just laughed harder.

As far as Jaguar XKE's go for the 1960's & 70's version there is/was a direct fit AC/Delco alternator available. A lot of Jag owners installed those for better reliability.
 
The E-Type came out in '61 and had that silly little airplane prop fan from introduction - the front crossmember between the left and right front suspension sits right where an engine driven fan would be located, hence the electric fan. During the '80s my sister had a '65 E-Type with chronic overheating. I installed an additional fan in front of the radiator from a 3.8 Buick Regal and left the Lucas fan. Even with both fans running the car still couldn't be driven in traffic at temperatures of over 90 degrees, but the Lucas alternator handled it all with no problems.
 
E-type fan

Hehe-i suspected that fan might not be overly effective at dealing with American summer temps.Still probably one of the first electric radiator fans-I had thought saab 99 was one of the first electric fans,but jag beat that by about 7 yrs.
 
As I found out, the problems with the Series I E-Types's cooling are more than just airflow. The Series II car had an improved radiator plus a shroud in back with two smaller fans and a slightly larger grille. It worked better but I don't think any E-Type has a particularly good cooling system. Series III (V-12) cars got an even better radiator and fans, plus the front grille is much larger. IIRC Jag finally had to improve cooling efficiency on the XK six cylinder engine during the '70s.

 

The XK was Jaguar's first engine design ever - before that they bought engines from Standard (parent of Triumph). The XK was designed starting during WWII and entered production for the '49 XK120 sports car, though the real purpose of the engine was to pull big sedans around smartly, something it did quite well. Given the ancient origins of the XK it is understandable that it might not have had a cooling system adequate to deal with non-British levels of heat, but Jag shouldn't have waited 25 years to fix that!

 

I think the electrical issues with old Jags have more to do with the overall wiring system than Lucas components, but I've seen VW and Porsche products with lots of wiring problems as well so it's not exclusively a British problem.

 

I'm pretty sure the Fiat 128 always had an electric fan from introduction in '69, making it the first cheap car I know of with one. Citroen had one as well from '70 as an auxiliary fan on some DSs mounted behind the radiator and in front of the engine driven fan; the motor for the electric fan actually is long enough that the engine driven fan has a hole in its boss to accommodate the motor and thus rotates around it.
 
The story of Smiths at the link.

"Clocks, watches, and automotive instruments eventually ceased to be significant markets for Smiths, and by the 1980s, the automotive instrument division had been sold,first to Lucas, and eventually to the factory employees. The new company, Caerbont Automotive Instruments, continues to produce classic Smiths-branded instruments with the blessing of Smiths Group plc."

As I recall their aviation division produced something called Smiths Autoland, which allowed airliners to land safely in fog. Quite an accomplishment in the Sixties!

Smiths Group - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
I think the electrical issues with old Jags have more to do with the overall wiring system than Lucas components, but I've seen VW and Porsche products with lots of wiring problems as well so it's not exclusively a British problem.

By the time a car is 50 years old or so it's bound to have wiring problems. I have a friend in town here who has a 1964 Mini Cooper S, original all the way. I think he laughs the hardest of all when I ask "How is the mini doing these days?" He'll usually reply something like "Well Lucas is having a problem, or Smith's is in there somewhere messing up the works."

I think it's funny that this subject came up at all on this website. Maybe only people in Houston have problems with Lucas & Smiths electrics?
 
In America "Smith" is used for plumbing & drainage (I see the name on a drain plate in commercial & industrial locales, likening it to the A.O. Smith Water Heater)...

But in FERRIS BUHLER'S DAY OFF, one the gauges in the Ferrarri that Ferris & his friends take while playing hooky from school that they & a couple parking garage attendants go joyriding in (it was most likely the Speedometer; it's shown while they attempt to turn back the odometer, running the car in Reverse w/ a 2X4 locked on the accelerator pedal), said "Smith" on it...

We have (had?) Stuart/Warner gauges, among other makes for Hot Rods & "Trick" Sports & Muscle Cars, which I'd seen in magazines in the articles & ads, among a few other makes...

-- Dave
 
I would be surprised at Ferrari using Smiths gauges, most likely any movie shot showing that was not of a real Ferrari. Most Italian makes used Veglia Borletti, which are generally well made and reliable. Of the three big postwar Italian exotic makes, Maserati was the oldest but often the most poorly financed and thus bought more parts from other companies. During the '50s and '60s Maserati used quite a few British parts, especially for brakes and rear axles.

 

Maserati also used a Lucas mechanical fuel injection system on some cars starting with the 5000 GT, a very rare five liter V8 supercar of the early '60s with a total production of about 50 cars. The Lucas injection was then used on many of the old inline six engines on the 3500, Sebring and Mistral through '70. It works well when it works, but like most old mechanical injection systems it takes some special knowledge to keep running. A similar system was used on some Triumphs in the late '60s and '70s but these were primarily sold in England and little expertise for maintenance exists elsewhere so most of the Masers have been converted back to triple Weber sidedraft carbs. Some years ago I spoke with a longtime Mistral owner who bothered to keep his injection system up and he said it worked better than the carbs, having owned both.
 
My dad had a '68 Maserati Quattroporte, and it had Smiths gauges, as well as Girling disc brakes (the brake fluid reservoir specified Girling Crimson brake fluid, which was unobtainable, but Castrol was acceptable as I recall.)

I don't remember for sure whether the starter and alternator were Marelli, but I think they were...could have been Lucas, though.
 
Neat car! The Series I Quattroporte is finally getting some respect and appreciation these days - it is an elegant and understated car and one of the fastest sedans of its era.

 

Quite a lot of the British parts Maserati used are similar to those used in Jaguars. The three popular Italian makes, Fiat, Alfa Romeo and Lancia did not tend to make cars as large, heavy and powerful as the exotics, thus most Italian component suppliers didn't make much for those types of cars. Ferrari and Lamborghini had more budget to make their own parts, for Maserati it made sense to buy British. They also used quite a few British Borg-Warner automatic tranmissions; Maserati was the only Italian company to make many automatic cars during the '60s.
 
I've never heard of a Lucas fridge but in the UK classic motorcycle community we refer to Joseph Lucas as the "Prince of Darkness" in reference to the lighting equipment! At least Smiths only made non essential parts like speedometers and gauges so if they fail you can still get to your destination.
 
I've never heard of a Lucas fridge but in the UK classic motorcycle community we refer to Joseph Lucas as the "Prince of Darkness" in reference to the lighting equipment!

I've heard my British friend use that term when it came to the Jaguar he had. I think it was an XJ of some kind. To keep the electrics straight once every 6 months he needed to rotate the fuses in the fuse holder. That kept the Prince away.
 
fuses

LOL..i used to have to rotate the fuses in my '71 saab 99 from time to time to keep the connections good-this with the "old skool"euro exposed element ceramic fuses,semi-exposed fuseholder underhood.My '81 928 Porsche uses this same style of fuse,but located inside ahead of passenger footwell and no problems.
while on the subject of UK/euro car electrics,my euro cars use:
-'71 saab:
-most switches and relays,ETC.SWF (german)
-small motors(wipers ,fans)AB Electrolux(Sweden)
-engine electrical-originally was all bosch
-gauges- VDO
-'81 928:
-electrics almost all bosch,some SWF,originally had French SEV alternator.
-gauges VDO
 
Tickling the fuses . . .

Part of regular E-Type maintenance was giving the fuses a little tickle now and then. If you didn't do that then something important would stop working when you least expected, like the headlights. Waiting until then would often result in a blistered finger as those fuses would be hot. One of the more arcane bits of design on that car is the way the middle panel on the dashboard hinges down for access to the fuses, small instruments and switches. In some respects this is a great design, particularly for a car prone to electrical gremlins, since it takes no tools, only unscrewing two thumbscrews, to drop the panel down on its hinges. However, if you don't take a screwdriver and remove the fiddly little plastic panel below (this lists what the switches are for) you'll crack the latter, something virtually impossible to not do on a dark night when the lights have failed . . .

 

After having the '65 E-Type as a fun car for a number of years back in the '80s my sister found a '66 Corvette convertible. Compared to the E-Type it was rattly, thirsty and had mediocre steering, but it was so reliable that it ended out being in virtually daily use. When it was about 30 years old the headlights did quit one night but it turned out to be nothing more than a loose plug on the firewall. I can't even remember where the fuses are in that car since they've never given any trouble - GM knew how to do electrics back then.

 

Those VDO gauges so beloved of German makes are OK, but IMO not up to the quality of old Veglia or Jaeger gauges - I'm trying to think if I've ever had a failure on a Veglia or Jaeger but have seen VDO speedos in particular become erratic and fail. SEV Marchal made good alternators, as did Paris-Rhone and Ducellier. I've had all of them, plus some from Marelli and Bosch; the only alternator brand I've had real trouble with is Delco from the '90s. My mother had a new '92 Eagle and the OEM Delco failed at 17K, the replacement at 43K, both replaced under warranty. Then again at 75K, replaced by me. That one lasted until the car was given to Aids Project LA in 2004 with about 120K on the clock. It still ran well but we just got tired of dealing with Chrysler for parts; once a car was 10 years old they didn't have any interest in supplying parts, something that Fiat will hopefully change. Sad to see Delco go downhill so far given that the old Corvette never had any problems with the alternator in spite of having a ton of miles on it.
 
VDO and french alternators

my vdo gauges and speedos have been ok except the odos are erratic on both my saab and Porsche-I think a gear may be loose on a shaft or something...SEV alty on my 928 was supposed to be 90a,but it wasn't putting out enough current and when I took it apart to check,the stator winding was way too small for 90 amps(I think someone put the wrong stator in during a repair.I put in an '82 900 turbo bosch alty in instead-was a very close fit-only had to add a spacer.Had several 90a Renault fuego and 18i P/R altys,but mountings not suitable for the Porsche.One thing I like about the French altys is the rear bearings fit into a plastic bushing-far less wear prone than having the bearing directly in aluminum housing like bosch and a few other alternator brands.The GM delco CS130 alternator('87-94 era)is one of the worst ever-they run too hot and blow the diodes or reg.
 
That VDO odometer failure was endemic for years and years and years. My sister's first car was a used 914, the odo failed on that. Years later I bought a very nice, clean one owner '87 Saab 900T. The original speedo had failed at 60K and been replaced; the seller recalled the odo having gone south first. I once took a VDO Porsche speedo apart and found the odo gears were a very cheap press fit on the shaft. Given the number of years that this kept happening VDO had to know it was a common problem but I guess they just didn't care.

 

I should ask a buddy of mine who owns an '82 Scirocco if his instruments are VDO. He's owned it from new and it now has somewhere between 500K and 600K. He's picky about maintenance and wouldn't live with a bad odo.
 
I bought a new 1989 Peugeot 405 - nice car, really! - and FWIW it had a Jaeger instrument cluster. The speedo cable gave near constant trouble, getting jittery and making noise at about 10,000 miles. It eventually broke and was replaced under warranty, but had to be replaced again after that. It was akways noisy. The mechanic said that the Veglia gauges Peugeot used on later models were even worse. There were no problems at all from the other electrics in the car (of course the speedo cable was not exactly electric).

Never knew who made the alternator, but it was a very easy car on batteries. I only had to buy one replacement in 11 years and 120,000 miles.

I've got an American made Jaeger 8 day clock that came out of the dashboard of my grandfather's 1932 Hupmobile. No self winding back then!
 

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