So..I splurged and bought a Maytag Bravos XL

[murando531]

I've actually had it since last Friday, but with the new job and the chaos of the holiday, I'm just now getting to post pictures. It wasn't a decision made without A LOT of deep thought and research, but with the price I paid for it, and the fact that I could finance it with 12 months no interest, which helps to boost the credit I'm trying to build, it seemed like a logical decision.

The model number is MVWB725BW0. It has the Fisher&Paykel drive system, recirculation system, and 4.5 cu.ft tub. The only things I passed up by not choosing the model up was the built in heater, and the claim of a 4.8 cu.ft capacity, which side by side look exactly alike. I posted a picture of the underside while it was tipped forward.

In the last week I've done probably 10 loads, and I honestly have to say, as skeptical as I've been of any HE top-load impeller style machines, I'm surprisingly impressed with its performance so far. The window-lid has caused me to stand watching, mesmerized, for the entire cycle, and though I've had, and still have, reservations about certain things about it, clothes come out feeling fresh, smelling light and crisp, and stains that seemed impossible to remove were gone without a trace. With its 1100 RPM final spin speed, there have literally been dry spots on the load, which I know for certain were being saturated and pulled in and out of the water. As a result, the dryer that already does a fantastic job with heavy loads is now knocking out full loads of towels in around 30 minutes!

I'm still learning and experimenting with the cycles and options, but I suppose I should share what I've learned so far:

- As most owners of HE top loaders have stated, it is CRUCIAL that users follow the directions on loading the machine and choosing cycles. So far, simply following the advice on the sticker right on the inside lip of the door has proven that the machine will give perfect results.

- Following that statement, while the diagram shows to load clothes loosely around the basket and wash plate, the main thing to make sure of is that there is nothing draped over the wash plate. As long as you reach down and make a small "hole" so that the center hub of the agitator is visible, there's nothing to worry about.

- My favorite feature of the machine is that on every cycle, it begins by flushing the detergent dispenser, then recirculating that concentrated detergent water evenly over the load while slowly turning the basket. It will spin up to a low spin speed in between dispenser flushes and recirculating sprays, "squeezing" the soapy water out and then saturating them again. It does this over and over for about 10 minutes, adding water whenever the pump starts to cavitate. I believe it also judges how much water is absorbed because of that cavitation, because with heavy loads of towels it adds much more water for this "PowerSpray" process. In my opinion, the saturation with the concentrated detergent is as effective as pretreating, but it's over the entire load, and I feel it has made a huge difference in the cleanliness of the clothes as well.

- I have been especially impressed with the agitation in this washer. It seems to do a much better job with the "blooming" rollover action than machines I've seen in videos. I have noticed that it does better with larger loads, I assume because the weight pushes the clothes on the bottom against the impeller vanes. I've yet to have anything tangled or wadded up, even jeans and long sleeve shirts. Again, I've been shocked but pleased.

- The Heavy Duty and PowerWash cycles seem to use the recirculation pump much more frequently, using a pattern of agitation, slow rotation sprays, and soak periods during the wash. This is in addition to the PowerSpray process at the beginning of the cycle.

- This is by far the QUIETEST machine I've ever heard. The door seems to seal some of the noise in, because there is a night and day difference between how the machine sounds with the door open or closed. And yes, the lock can easily be tripped with a magnet to the right of the latch, and when the latch pops out, you have to push it in so that only about an inch is sticking out. The motor is nearly silent, and the fill valves are pretty quiet as well. The only time you can hear it from another room is when the drain pump runs "dry", but because it is horizontally mounted, there's only a muffled gurgling sound rather than the horrible rhythmic choking that the WP agitator model has. The drain seems to only run when needed, so most of the spin is just the sound of what seems like a tiny jet engine whirring up or down.

- As far as detergent use, I'm noticing that in most cases I'll need to use half or less of the normal dose that I would have used in the WP. There are still some suds with the lower dose, but nothing that carries over to the rinse, and everything still comes out fresh and clean.

- The Bulky cycle is the only cycle that fills to a substantial amount, between 1/2 and 3/4 of the tub. The agitation is also longer strokes. When washing a comforter, it seemed to roll the comforter around easily; with a full load of towels, the blooming rollover action was more vigorous, so I'm still trying to decide what I'll use for such loads. The Heavy and PowerWash cycles seem to do an excellent job with those as it is.

- The only two complaints so far are that:
1. I wish that the fill for the rinse would be a little higher than the wash. Granted, with the Water Save Spray Rinse button deselected, it does a "spray rinse" after the first rinse, then fills for an agitated rinse. I have not yet needed to run a separate rinse cycle, however, so maybe the technique of water sprays and agitation are more effective than it would seem.

2. The fill flume could use some improvement. While it does fan out, it seems most of the water falls on the outer edge of the wash plate rather than the clothes. I may remove the flow restrictors and test to see if it takes care of that. Some of the "jets" are directed backwards toward the top of the basket, as well as a heavier jet of water that flows out toward the upper row of holes, but there isn't enough momentum for the water to go that far, and instead it just falls straight down anyway. As long as removing the restrictors doesn't cause the dispensers to overflow or an error to occur, I think it may help the spray rinses become more effective. There are some Cabrio/Bravos owners that have removed the restrictors and haven't reported problems, so I assume the dispensers have their own valves and that it would just affect the fill flume.

Sorry to practically write a book. I'm both excited and reserved about it, so I'll have to post updates as I learn the machine a little more. I'll also try to post the videos I've taken so far as well. For now, here are a few pictures!!!

 

[a440]

Congratulations!

Looks like a very fun machine.

 

 

[logixx]

Andrew + High Efficieny = possible?

 

Thanks for the review - am waiting the the second part of "the book". I totally agree with you on the fill flume. I have seem many videos of the Whirlpool Vantage and its jet did not seem as powerful as F&P's version.

 

 

[mrb627]

Status?

Still liking your new machine?

Malcolm

 

[murando531]

Sorry to go so long without an update, work and life have been hectic here lately.

So, I'm a bit conflicted about the machine. First and foremost, I have been very impressed with it performance wise. Every load seems to have just enough water for the clothes to be rolled over properly, and I've noticed it does even better with large loads of clothes. I've yet to need to rewash or pretreat anything so far. I wouldn't mind it using a little more water for rinsing, but then again it seems that everything comes out without being sticky or greasy or over-perfumed, so I suppose something is working right.

What I have reservations about is just the few quirks I've come across that really boil down to just design oversight or poor choice in material. For starters, the spray port at the 11 o'clock position has a hole that comes straight from the recirculation hose, and is angled slightly upward, and in the top of the tub ring there is a "track" molded in so that it spreads the water into a fan. In machines I've seen videoed, the recirculating spray fans out to where the clothes pass under it and even things up against the top of the tub get sprayed; mine sort of made a "leaf" pattern, where it would fan out and then curve back together to a point, and the bottom of the other side of the tub was getting drenched but nothing more. This prevented: A. The detergent from getting soaked into ALL the clothes during the pretreating/sensing procedure, and B. The clothes from being properly weighted down with water so that the washer could accurately gauge the amount of water needed.

My solution was a small plastic edge piece that would be used to cover the edge of sheet metal. I've used water proof tape for now, but I mounted it just so that the water is deflected enough that there is now a "wall" of water that the clothes have to pass under. So far it's improved the performance of the PowerSpray procedure and the sensing, because it's been adding more water for most loads.

My second and BIGGEST issue has been with the drain pump. From day one, the pump would have this loud buzzing sound once it had pumped all the water out that it could. When the tub is full of water and there's no cavitation, the pump is nearly silent, as these shaded pole motors typically are. Once the majority of water is gone and it pump is basically free spinning with what little water is left to gurgle, you hear this loud buzzing, almost grinding sound that gets louder with time.

I called Maytag, who sent out a pretty knowledgable guy, who told me that it sounded like bad bearings from the factory, and simply ordered a new one. He was the first tech I've met that didn't try to act like he knew more than anyone else, and he told me he was impressed with what I knew. He came back this past Monday and replaced them, and all was good. The new pump was beautifully quiet even when free spinning during the drain. Then, last night I heard it start up again, and this time it sounds worse.

I've tried filling it with water and draining to make sure it's nothing in the pump chamber, and this morning took the pump completely off, and it's clean as day one. The only thing I can tell or feel is that there's a tiny amount of play in the impeller if you press on it. As I'm typing right now, it's on the last spin on a load of towels and I can hear that disturbing buzzing all the way from my computer where otherwise the machine is nearly silent.

So, as of this moment that's the verdict so far. I'm about to call Maytag again and go through this song and dance once more.

 

[murando531]

Here's the spray before. You can see how it sort of formed back to a point where it would hit the bottom of the tub around the 4 o'clock point.

 

[murando531]

And here's the slightly improved spray. Some of the water jets outward while some sheets downward like a wall, and the top gets soaked by the water that sort of travels along the curve of the tub ring and falls directly down. This also seems to keep the stainless steel tub nice and clean too.

I'll have to take a good video soon when I find some time, hopefully once this drain pump business is taken care of.

 

[henene4]

With the second pump beging equal...

... you might get some insolation pads and stick them onto the pump chamber. As you mentioned, you had a look at the pump already and therefor the work should be easy.
At least, I doubt the noise would get any better with any other new pump and such a simple fix will save you a lot of work and stress.
The improved spray really seems better aimed. Hope it works for a long time like this.

 

[wp-dude22]

Nice hope we can see a video of a full load. I would really like to get one of these washers or the WP variant but i like how this one looks better than the WP. The new WP washers with the touch panels reviews are not up to scratch.

also good work on the Re-circulation mod.

Congrats on the new purchase seems like you really love it keep is posted ....

 

[mrb627]

Damn

So sorry to hear about your washer woes. I'm sure you'll eventually get things ironed out. I have had a mild fascination with impeller top loaders for a while but you hear such horror stories. Actually, front loaders get the same horror stories, so ultimately, I guess you buy what you want and forget the rest.

I wouldn't mind having one of these machines to experiment with to find out how they truly perform.

Malcolm

 

[murando531]

It's all good. I'm just hoping that maybe it's one of those freak situations where I happened to get two bad drain pumps. I pray that this third one will be the charm. If this was a normal occurrence I'm sure that it would have appeared on the 2000+ 4.5 star average reviews that I scoured before buying it. Plus, that pump and assembly config. has been basically unchanged since the early Cabrios, so I doubt it is just a design fluke.

Other than that, I'm impressed and happy with it overall, and as dead-set against HE washers as I have been, that's saying something! It seems to use just enough water for the clothes to be soaked and for the blooming action to work really well, and the high speed spin is cutting a huge amount of time off of drying, even for giant loads of towels.

The most surprising quality to this machine is how well it handles lint. The design of the wash plate's vent holes apparently helps to trap and push lint and dirt particles down under the tub, and the tiny holes on the basket itself catch lint too, according to the service manual. Our dark clothes seem more bold and vibrant because the years-old lint is disappearing with every wash.

 

[murando531]

While I wait for the verdict on this obnoxiously buzzy drain pump issue, I suppose I can share what I've learned about the cycles and options so far...

First, the options, since they'll be referenced with how the cycles interact with them, and I won't have to explain them with each one.

Wash Temps - Cold, Cool, Warm, Hot. Same typical setup as most machines with ATC, HOWEVER, I've noticed that when Hot is selected, it does not add cold water during the fill. Steam usually covers the glass lid, and wafts from the seams, and when I checked the water mid-wash, it read 118. Not bad for an HE machine. I supposed since it's using less anyway, there's no real need to dumb it down as much.

Spin Speeds - Low, Medium, Max Extract. Self explanatory. There is no option for a No Spin, which I found interesting. Medium speed is probably around 600-700 RPM, similar to the WP's high speed spin. The Max Speed is excellent; clothes usually will feel barely even damp at the end.

Soil Level - Light, Medium, Heavy. Also self explanatory. I don't know yet whether it increases the time of the beginning pretreat sequence.

Water Saving Spray Rinse (WSSR) - This button is illuminated as the default for most cycles, except Bulky and PowerWash. The spray rinse in this machine doesn't seem near as effective as the F&P or WP Vantage/Cabrio versions. It sprays fresh water for about 30 seconds, then swings the basket once in each direction, about 360 degrees, while the drain pump runs, then repeats that two more times, followed by the final spin. I'm used to the others actually spinning between those rinses, and filling with at least an inch of water each time.

Extra Rinse - basically adds a WSSR after the first spin, before the final rinse. There is no spin to transition between this spray rinse and the agitated rinse.

Fabric Softener - I'm still not sure of the purpose of this option, besides being a toggle between itself and the WSSR. Regardless of if this option is chosen for a cycle that doesn't use the WSSR, or the WSSR is turned off, the FS dispenser still flushes. I have noticed that steam will appear on the glass above the dispenser, so it this option apparently just flushes the dispenser once with hot water and again with cold. The FS option also doesn't appear to add any more water than the regular agitated rinse, which I also find odd.

PowerSpray sequence - This isn't a selected option, but it's a feature I'll explain so that I can just reference it in the cycles. The PowerSpray sequence is the beginning of every cycle, even Rinse/Spin. The washer starts by immediately flushing the detergent dispenser, then slowly rotating the basket while showering the concentrated detergent mixture on the load, then doing a quick spin to squeeze the water out. It repeats this over and over for about 10-15 minutes, adding water through the detergent cup if there is any air being pulled into the pump. During this period, the computer is also sensing how much resistance is present when spinning the basket, and you can hear the gradual ups and downs as it picks up speed. Then it senses how long it takes for the basket to spin back down, but the stator is also "braking", so with a light load the basket will stop very quickly, where with jeans or towels it takes a few seconds more.

Now the Cycles and times:

Normal (00:54) - Obviously the Energy Star certified cycle, and you can tell. Starts with a PS sequence, then fills and agitates for about 20-25 minutes. This cycles seems to use the least water, and the agitation cycles through quick strokes, medium 360 degree strokes, and a few vigorous almost 720 degree oscillations thrown in now and again. After the initial PowerSpray, there isn't really any recirculation besides after the bleach dispense at the last 5 minutes.

Heavy Duty (~1:15) - A much more complex cycle, adding about 20 minutes total. Begins with a ~15 minute PS, then fills through both the 12 o'clock flume and the detergent cup, usually a little higher than the Normal water level. It then agitates at heavy then medium action, then pauses to slowly rotate the basket while recirculating water, and proceeds to rotate the tub for a few minutes to soak. It repeats this probably around 9-10 times during the whole cycle, 2-3 minutes agitation, 2-3 minutes for spray and soak (this is for Heavy Soil setting, I haven't tried a lower setting yet).

PowerWash (~1:30) - My favorite cycle so far. It's almost the same as Heavy Duty, except the PS sequence seems to be longer, it seems to use a little more water, and the WSSR option is not available, as it defaults to a filled rinse. I use this cycle for most of my loads, and so far I've yet to have a stain survive.

Whites (1:00) - Seems similar to the Heavy Duty cycle, but has more agitation time than sprays and soaks. Instead, it periodically recirculates as it's agitating. The biggest difference is that instead of flushing the bleach dispenser at the last 5-10 minutes of the wash like the other cycles, it spins after the wash, then flushes the bleach followed by about a 5-7 minute PowerSpray, then spins again and proceeds to the rinse.

Bulky (1:10) - Of course designed for comforters and the like. WSSR and Max Extract spin speed are disabled for this cycle. It normally fills to half or 3/4 of the tub, and the agitation is a constant 720 degree oscillation, with recirculations thrown in every few minutes. I've tried using this cycle for towels, and things like hoodies and jeans, which does a really good job moving the clothes, but it has a tendency to ball the clothes up, and there is no sequence of short agitation strokes to help disperse the clothes before the spin, so I've had severe off-balance issues. I've decided that the PowerWash cycle works well for everything else anyway, so if I wash blankets or comforters, I just keep an ear out so I can monitor it during the spins.

Sheets (00:56) - For, you guessed it, sheets or thin blankets. I was surprised to find out that this cycle does NOT fill much more than to the center cap of the wash plate. In older Cabrios, this cycle would fill over halfway. This cycle does still use shorter agitation strokes to keep from tangling anything, and so far it's done a really good job. I usually throw the fitted and cover sheets, and the pillow cases all together. So far no tangling at all.

Rapid Wash (00:32) - I've only used this once, and all I noticed was a shorter PowerSpray sequence, a tiny bit more water, and medium agitation for about 7-8 minutes. WSSR can only be toggled off by selecting Extra Rinse, but I think it just does more spray rinses. Selecting Fabric Softener sets the time to around 45 minutes, and carries out a normal agitated rinse.

Delicates (00:45) - Basically a soaking cycle, which is what you want for delicates anyway. Starts with a PS, then fills, and agitates with tiny little pulses every 3 minutes or so, with PowerSprays and soaks being the majority of the cycle, including the rinse. High spin speeds are disabled.

Rinse/Drain & Spin (00:20) - Flushes every dispenser, PowerSprays for a few minutes, then fills to what seems to be a set amount no matter the load, and agitates with slower, more deliberate strokes. To do a spin by itself, you just turn off the Extra Rinse option.

Clean Washer (1:00) - This cycle is self explanatory as well, but it does a few interesting things. First of all, it of course only uses hot water. At the beginning it flushes all the dispensers, PowerSprays for a bit, then fills with enough water to reach the air chambers of the basket, but not enough to float it. It then ramps up quickly to a decently fast spin, and you can hear water torrenting and rushing underneath. After a few of those, it continues to PowerSpray and flush dispensers, then once its filled to halfway up the agitator, it starts spinning the agitator quickly each way, slinging water up against the basket walls and forcing water up out of the little holes on the agitator itself. Then it fills to the rim of the basket and does 2-3 rotations each direction for about 30 minutes, with periodic soaks. After draining, it fills up again with cool water and does the same thing, with a slow spin after.

I've yet to actually NEED to run a clean cycle, because it seems to keep itself shiny and fresh on its own. I suspect its my frequent use of hot water cycles and scaling back on detergent, as well as only using tiny amounts of fabric softener now and then.

 

[whirlpolf]

Thank you so much for explaining all this

Andrew, thanks for having done such an elaborate job on outlining all those cycle sequences to us.
Now it is deffo: I do want one!
But I cannot make out whether it can be transformed to Euro current (coming from the service diagrams I have here).
I am afraid to broil the motor control board or the motor coils themselves.

Is there a 230 V 50 Hz version of it? Or if not: Is mains power converted to internal voltages an frequencies? (So if yes, then the necessary alterations should be a snap)

Thanks for all info given here, fantastic.
Cheers, Joe

 

[murando531]

Well, the tech came out and replaced the drain pump. Again. This makes the third one. He's been here so much that we talk like old friends now. This time we took the back panel off to make sure all the connections and harnesses were in place, but he said everything looks perfect. We also wiggled the impeller on the new pump and it has the same amount of play as the "old" one. We get it all together and connected, and it sounds like a dream, where when it pumps the water out all you heard is a slight gurgling and a hum with that "wahhhhhhhhhhh" sound that it should have.

He leaves and I run an automatic diagnostic cycle to make sure the new pump is calibrated, and then a Rinse&Spin. It drains out, and within five minutes I hear that incessant loud buzzing noise just creeping in, and soon it was loud enough that it's all I could hear. In addition, I had laid a towel flat in front of the washer before it was laid down, and I also rolled a towel to put near the lid end so that it would be easier to grip when we needed to lift it back up (this washer is unreasonably heavy for the amount of plastic it's made of). Apparently in the motion of moving it around while he was scooting past it to get to the bottom, and little dent is now on the front left corner. From the looks of it, there is nothing directly behind the corners where the metal starts to round out to the front. So there's that.

For now, I have a 23"x23" piece of carpet under the washer, with an old towel neatly rolled and wedged under the front to try and muffle the sound. It works, but I can still hear it enough that it cuts my nerves to shreds. I'm thinking I'll get some narrow black pipe insulator and cut it so that it fits around the bottom and will look more like the "riser" that is on the higher end models.

I love the washer. I love the way it looks, the way it works, and so far the way it performs. But that sound, and the trouble of having to keep disconnecting everything and dismantle the laundry room and causing nicks and scratches and now a dent in the process...it's caused me to almost hate the thing.

For now I guess I'm just going to use it and stop caring about trying to make it work as it's designed to work and sound as it should sound. I would have thought that a noise like this would have made it's way into the thousands of reviews this machine has, but then again the majority of the world just throws clothes in and pushes a button and could care less what it sounds like as long as it doesn't interrupt their soap operas and football games.

 

[henene4]

Isolation?

Just want to point my idea out again:
Get some sound-isolation material (I know that some hardware stores arround here carry specific sound proofing matts made of a foam-rubber material, but I guess any material with isolating caracteristicas should work) and stick it on the pump housing. (I mean the plastic housing that surrounds the pump-impeller.) I guess this would reduce the noise even further.

 

[logixx]

Just keep in mind that the motor and pump must be able to give off some heat - so don't wrap them too tightly.

 

[ozzie908]

Pump issues....

Would appear to be the norm these days with these horrible magnet driven pumps admittedly you never hear of one leaking like the old motor driven ones but you have to suffer the noise when they run dry. After having some extremely top end washers and enjoying practical silence until they empty !! Such is progress.

I would like to ask though if you had bought the higher end model with a heater in it where is this situated? Is it in a circulation pump like some dishwashers or is it under the basket?? Anyone know?

Austin

 

[logixx]

The heater is underneath the basket.

 

[electron1100]

Noisey

I experienced the same on all 3 modern washers I owned (Hoover, Bosch, Hotpoint) they all used the same type of magnetic pump which was a noisy cheap sounding affair, though it seemed worse on the Hotpoint Aqualtis as this had a silent tub motor so when the pump came on it woke you up like a hammer drill going. dreadful things.

I prefer shaded pole pumps any day over these things.

Gary

I am an audio engineer by trade and have a lot of experience at damping unwanted sound, so i spent a lot of time and effort damping the cabinet etc but nothing worked, these pumps vibrate so much due to there design I concluded the only thing that would possibly silence them was to mount the pump on a solid inert base, 1" steel etc

Other than getting some one with the knowledge to fit a shaded pole pump I think you are stuck with it :-(