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Someone Explain Please
- Thread starter launderess
- Start date
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L, surely you know what heat pumps do?! 
Yes, but what or rather where does the heat and cold come from?
Refrigeration / air conditioning doesn't make cold. It moves heat from one place to another. For cooling, heat is picked up from inside the house and moved outside (thus the hot air blowing from the condensor of your Friedrich). The compressor adds a "unit" or two of heat to increase the temp differential of the Freon over the ambient so it "gives up" the collected heat a bit easier.
A heat pump is simply an air conditioner working in reverse. Not literally, but refrigerationally. There's still heat down to absolute zero (-459.67°F).
Like if your Friedrich was turned around in winter so the hot condensor exhaust blew *into* the house instead of outside. It'd be cooling the *outdoors* and heating the house.
Voila!
A heat pump is simply an air conditioner working in reverse. Not literally, but refrigerationally. There's still heat down to absolute zero (-459.67°F).
Like if your Friedrich was turned around in winter so the hot condensor exhaust blew *into* the house instead of outside. It'd be cooling the *outdoors* and heating the house.
Voila!
ALL air conditioners are heat pumps. Just not all of them have the necessary valves and other components to reverse the refrigeration cycle to perform the indoor heating function.
OIC
Always wondered how that worked. I mean knew about the condensor part, but thought heat pumps/coolers were something that required pipes going down into the earth or a body of water.
Thanks for the HVAC 101 lesson. When is the pop quiz?
L.
Always wondered how that worked. I mean knew about the condensor part, but thought heat pumps/coolers were something that required pipes going down into the earth or a body of water.
Thanks for the HVAC 101 lesson. When is the pop quiz?
L.
Never ever cover a heat-pump for the winter. *LOL*
TE HE HE HE GadgetGary has one. As a New Yorker it STILL amazes me to see an all-electric house. BIG NO-NO here! (Just fork-over all your money to the utility (it's faster and easier than giving it to them monthly).
Some heat-pump weaknesses:
As the oudoor temp drops, it is harder (read: pricier) to extract heat from outdoors, concentrate it and move/release it indoors.
The outdoor unit needs to be defrosted every few hours. The defrost cycle is simply the air-conditioning phase for a few minutes (heating up the outside coils) without the outdoor unit's fan running. Coil gets hot and you see steam and water coming off the outside unit.
Below a certain temp the heat pump can't replace the heat at a faster rate (or same rate) than the house is losing it. Therefore expensive electric supplemental/"emergency" heat comes on WITH the heat-pump to maintain and increase indoor temps. Better control systems just turn the damned thing off at circa 15*F, using straight-resistance electric heat.
In the old days Long Island, NY was considered the northern-most ridge of heat-pump (cost/efficiency) effectiveness, climactically. Mannies, however, now say good from Maine to Florida.
Even with fancy thermoststs that limit electric heat, nightly energy saving set-backs in temps are not really advised as one would do with a fossil-fueled system. Morning time recovery takes HOURS when it's cold outside!
TE HE HE HE GadgetGary has one. As a New Yorker it STILL amazes me to see an all-electric house. BIG NO-NO here! (Just fork-over all your money to the utility (it's faster and easier than giving it to them monthly).
Some heat-pump weaknesses:
As the oudoor temp drops, it is harder (read: pricier) to extract heat from outdoors, concentrate it and move/release it indoors.
The outdoor unit needs to be defrosted every few hours. The defrost cycle is simply the air-conditioning phase for a few minutes (heating up the outside coils) without the outdoor unit's fan running. Coil gets hot and you see steam and water coming off the outside unit.
Below a certain temp the heat pump can't replace the heat at a faster rate (or same rate) than the house is losing it. Therefore expensive electric supplemental/"emergency" heat comes on WITH the heat-pump to maintain and increase indoor temps. Better control systems just turn the damned thing off at circa 15*F, using straight-resistance electric heat.
In the old days Long Island, NY was considered the northern-most ridge of heat-pump (cost/efficiency) effectiveness, climactically. Mannies, however, now say good from Maine to Florida.
Even with fancy thermoststs that limit electric heat, nightly energy saving set-backs in temps are not really advised as one would do with a fossil-fueled system. Morning time recovery takes HOURS when it's cold outside!
...and the damned thing defaults to expensive resistance electric heat negating and surpassing any savings gained during the set-back period.
That was the exact system this house had....
As original equiptment when it was built in 86. Slightly newer version, obviously. I guess it lasted long enough. It worked fine when I moved in, though not for long. Still a good job, though, considering the installers for the new system said it was too small for the house. Th compressor on the outside unit failed. Heat pump replaced, coil matched, inside unit still the Weathertron, and still working. Outside unit a new Ruud "Scroll Inside" whatever that means. Working well now. =)
D
As original equiptment when it was built in 86. Slightly newer version, obviously. I guess it lasted long enough. It worked fine when I moved in, though not for long. Still a good job, though, considering the installers for the new system said it was too small for the house. Th compressor on the outside unit failed. Heat pump replaced, coil matched, inside unit still the Weathertron, and still working. Outside unit a new Ruud "Scroll Inside" whatever that means. Working well now. =)
D
"...and the damned thing defaults to expensive resistance electric heat negating and surpassing any savings gained during the set-back period."
Aha! That is interesting to know. At my job, if a new house has a heat pump, we have to refer it to an electrical engineer for handling. I always wondered why that it so, but I can see now that it probably has to do with transformer capacity.
Aha! That is interesting to know. At my job, if a new house has a heat pump, we have to refer it to an electrical engineer for handling. I always wondered why that it so, but I can see now that it probably has to do with transformer capacity.
Except, also as we know, some systems nowadays have a lock-out option that prevents the auxiliary/resistance from running (except during defrost cycles) until the ambient drops below a chosen (programmable) temp. Being as temps here rarely drop below 30°F, my lock-out is 25°F. At "extremes" approaching that, a 10°F recovery may take 4 hrs at =<30°F, but I find it perfectly comfortable being that the system is blowing warm air the entire time.
If a cold snap dropped us to 20°F, I'd probably drop the lock-out accordingly.
How well a system can handle the heating load sans resistance depends on several factors, including such things as wind / air leakage. If the house is not well insulated and weatherstripped, a very cold still day is perhaps not as much of a problem as a very cold WINDY day.
The required electric capacity for a heat pump is equivalent to a non-heat pump air conditioning system with standard resistance heat. There's nothing unusual about the resistance heat that's involved.
L, there are ground-source heat pumps (either water or earth) that are more efficient (for both cooling and heating) and better able to deal with ambient extremes.
If a cold snap dropped us to 20°F, I'd probably drop the lock-out accordingly.
How well a system can handle the heating load sans resistance depends on several factors, including such things as wind / air leakage. If the house is not well insulated and weatherstripped, a very cold still day is perhaps not as much of a problem as a very cold WINDY day.
The required electric capacity for a heat pump is equivalent to a non-heat pump air conditioning system with standard resistance heat. There's nothing unusual about the resistance heat that's involved.
L, there are ground-source heat pumps (either water or earth) that are more efficient (for both cooling and heating) and better able to deal with ambient extremes.
As said, ground-source heat pumps are more efficient for both
heating and cooling, but you have to consider the trade-offs
for where you live. In the Twin Cities, for a ground-source
system with drilled holes/wells for the loops, I was told one
hole will heat 500 sq. feet (I think that's what it was).
Drilling the holes and the setup is not cheap, but if you can
amortize if over a lot of years you can recover your money.
And of course who knows what heat and cooling (gas, electric,
oil) will cost in the future.
I've forgotten what just the drilling costs - $1,000 per hole?
I think I was told they could be placed 12 feet (25 feet?)
apart. As you can see I'm not much help - can't remember
a thing.
heating and cooling, but you have to consider the trade-offs
for where you live. In the Twin Cities, for a ground-source
system with drilled holes/wells for the loops, I was told one
hole will heat 500 sq. feet (I think that's what it was).
Drilling the holes and the setup is not cheap, but if you can
amortize if over a lot of years you can recover your money.
And of course who knows what heat and cooling (gas, electric,
oil) will cost in the future.
I've forgotten what just the drilling costs - $1,000 per hole?
I think I was told they could be placed 12 feet (25 feet?)
apart. As you can see I'm not much help - can't remember
a thing.
The picture of the GE unit in the ad is now under Trane-Trane bought up the GE HVAC equipment manufacturing line and put it under the Trane name.they are still available but under the Trane name.There is a home near me that still has a GE unit.don't know how ell it works.the home is abandoned now.the tenent simply left without a trace.
Dadoes, have you ever seen or owned a window unit a/c that has optional heat? What I mean is it is an actual heat pump in the truest sense with the 4 way valves and the like. No electric heating elements but actual reversing valves. I bought several of these at a silent auction here that came out of an old government building. A few worked and a few didn't. I paid about scrap value on them considering that I didn't get to see them work before bidding. Everything was sold "as is."
Yes, an office where I work had a Whirly reverse-cycle window unit some years ago. It had back-up resistance heat, switched automatically at 45°F ambient. Was kinda irritating, LOL. If the ambient was on the cusp of 45°F, it'd sometimes switch back and forth -- start on compressor, then switch to resistance in a few mins after the condensor fan circulated some cold air through to chill the temp sensor. This was when running on automatic fan (yes, it had automatic fan option for both heating & cooling). When running resistance heat and the fan cycled off, the overheat 'stat would always trigger ("click") from the high residual heat left from the element, so it didn't work very well on automatic for heating. The unit as a whole was not reliable. The compressor was changed under warranty, then went bad again so it was replaced with a non-heat pump unit.
I love my Heat Pump . . .
My house is all electric, and my electric bill was $52.54 during my last billing cycle (4/26/07 - 5/26/07). I used 410 KWH during this cycle. That's pretty good, considering my house is a 3/2/2 with about 2000 sq ft of living space. Since I am pretty warm-natured, I keep my thermostat at 72*F when I am home, and I have had my A/C on since about May 1st.
We've also had a lot of rain this year, so the unit has been running a bit more than usual due to the increased humidity.
Electric is pretty cheap where I live. My electric comes from the CO-OP, since my house is in a relatively new part of town that was not considered part of the "metro" area when the lines were drawn several years ago during the deregulation era.
Bryan
My house is all electric, and my electric bill was $52.54 during my last billing cycle (4/26/07 - 5/26/07). I used 410 KWH during this cycle. That's pretty good, considering my house is a 3/2/2 with about 2000 sq ft of living space. Since I am pretty warm-natured, I keep my thermostat at 72*F when I am home, and I have had my A/C on since about May 1st.
We've also had a lot of rain this year, so the unit has been running a bit more than usual due to the increased humidity.
Electric is pretty cheap where I live. My electric comes from the CO-OP, since my house is in a relatively new part of town that was not considered part of the "metro" area when the lines were drawn several years ago during the deregulation era.
Bryan
but now???
Way up north do they not dig up your whole yard to bury pipes that go to these wells? i can understand how nice the air conditioner type unit is, and would be desirable, I would not be happy to have the in ground type unit installed if i had an established lawn and landscaping. new construction id say go for it.
Way up north do they not dig up your whole yard to bury pipes that go to these wells? i can understand how nice the air conditioner type unit is, and would be desirable, I would not be happy to have the in ground type unit installed if i had an established lawn and landscaping. new construction id say go for it.
Dual fuel systems have become quite popular around here in the older neighborhoods. Many homes are equipped with baseboard radiators or some other type of fossil-fuel system. When the homeowner decides to install air conditioning, they get a heat pump with a outdoor thermostat instead of using electric resistance heating for backup. The system runs in heat pump mode for the moderately cool days, and then on the bitterly cold days, the fossil-fuel system kicks in.
I wish sorely that my house had some sort of fossil fuel backup. During the wintertime, when temps get below 35 degrees, my electric bill, which normally runs around $60-$80 will soar to almost $300 running that electric resistance heat...and that's keeping the thermo at a modest 68 degrees. My neighbor next door with a dual-fuel oil/heat pump uses about the same amount of electricity, but only burns about $100 worth of fuel oil to keep his house at a comfortable 72 degrees!
I wish sorely that my house had some sort of fossil fuel backup. During the wintertime, when temps get below 35 degrees, my electric bill, which normally runs around $60-$80 will soar to almost $300 running that electric resistance heat...and that's keeping the thermo at a modest 68 degrees. My neighbor next door with a dual-fuel oil/heat pump uses about the same amount of electricity, but only burns about $100 worth of fuel oil to keep his house at a comfortable 72 degrees!
Yes, there would probably be trenches necessary so if you do
have essential landscaping you might not want to do it. Since
I prefer wildness, it wouldn't matter to me. If someone bought
my place, they would probably tear down the 3000 sq. ft house
and build some sort of mansion closer to the lake anyway.
Makes it hard to justify making any improvements.
have essential landscaping you might not want to do it. Since
I prefer wildness, it wouldn't matter to me. If someone bought
my place, they would probably tear down the 3000 sq. ft house
and build some sort of mansion closer to the lake anyway.
Makes it hard to justify making any improvements.
