Sourdough.

[filter-flo_rob]

Hi all,

Sherlockholmes (Denis) from London asked me about sourdough. This thread originally started on "Oct 11 in MA- one more party before the really cold weather!" I decided to create a separate thread for it as it is really off topic of the original thread:

Hi Denis,

Well ... my secret ... I learned this the hard way. I had tried starting sourdough, from just using flour and water; and, buying the pre-packaged starter and adding flour and water. I've always killed it.

Secret: rather than keeping the oven light on, try a simple 7 watt light bulb. The light gets the oven too hot and therefore, kills the starter. That being said, it may be dead, but you can always revive it, by feeding it.

Now, keep in mind that if you spend the money on, say, San Francisco starter, no matter what you do with it; based on the conditions of your environment, water, and flour, it eventually will be your own unique starter.

Here are a few recipes off the top of my head. All that info is at home, and I am at the library presently:

My own starter
1/4 cup whole wheat flour
3/8 cup water

Mix, put it in the oven (with a small light bulb); every 12-24 hrs. add more of the above ingredients in the aforementioned quantities. After a few days you'll notice the typical activity and the aroma!

After a while, you may switch to white flour ... the whole wheat has more "grain" in it, and speeds-up the process.

Bread (off the top of my head):
3 cups white flour
1 cup whole wheat flour
3 teaspoons sugar
1 teaspoon salt
1 cup sourdough starter
1/3 cup butter (or vegetable oil -- always used butter as it gives a crisper crust)
1 cup water

I have used a bread machine on dough only, and have done it by hand ... makes no difference:

Melt butter, pour in bottom of bread machine pan.
Add the rest of the stuff adding the starter next to the last and the sugar as the last ingredient. The bread machine cycle is 2 hrs. Leave it in for a total of ca. 8 to 12 hrs.

Since flours different, you may need to adjust the amount of liquid -- too sticky is just as bad as too dry (if you have made bread before, you'll understand what I am saying without writing a whole tome!)

Next day, take out, kneed, put in pan, let rise in the oven with the light bulb for about another 12 hrs. (or "double in bulk")

Preheat oven to 425F. Bake for 10 minutes, turn oven down to 350 and bake another 10 minutes. You may glaze with butter before putting it in the oven.

Notice there is no yeast in this bread ... you don't need it, but if you want to quicken the rising to ca. 2 hrs., you may do so, but the intention is to let the sourdough starter do the work.

'good day.

Rob.

 

[turquoisedude]

Thanks for the recipes and tips

I have been trying to find a sourdough starter recipe for ages - thanks for sharing this one! I may just now finally have a way to make the traditional Latvian sour rye bread that I have never been able to figure out!

 

[filter-flo_rob]

You are more than welcomed, Paul.

btw, start that starter with whole wheat flour and water. Since you have to constantly feed it, you will note that the bowl is getting quite full. You can throw it away (I make pancakes with mine); or, if you have the room, you can pour some off, and feed it with rye flour. I'd be curious to know the difference in the smell of the sourdough as well as the activity.

ANOTHER NOTE: You can always put the sourdough starter in the 'fridge and not feed it for a week ... simply take it out, get it to temp., and start feeding it all over again.

FORGOT TO MENTION: I use a ca. 1940s Pyrex bowl and put a plate on top of it when it is in the oven. You don't need plastic wrap or fancy-schmancy glassware. Prefer not to use metal bowls or utensils when mixing, proofing or storing the starter.

You can't kill this stuff easily; and if you do, it is revivable just as easily! Heat is the main culprit.

There's nothing like the smell of a starter filling the kitchen with that aroma.

Rob.

 

[turquoisedude]

Wow - I am dying to try this out now! Thanks, Rob!

I must admit, I found out by accident a long time ago that a low-wattage bulb in an oven is a great place to let yeast breads rise.

I appreciate the reminder about using a glass bowl, too - I remember reading in a recipe book somewhere that the removable crockery liner from a slow-cooker works well.
I figure one of my turquoise bowls will do!!

 

[filter-flo_rob]

LOL ...

Well, Turquoisedude, I would be disappointed if you used ... just a white bowl! I assume you enjoy the colour turquoise

Seriously, even a 25 watt bulb in an oven may (DOES!) get the oven too hot. Test it yourself. Anyting over 80ish is not good. After mixing the starter to create the dough; or using a yeast dough, then yes -- by all means, a low watt bulb that brings the temp to the upper 90s.

As I said, play around ... if you kill the starter, just feed it, reduce the temp. and within 24-48 hrs., it will be bubbly and frothy again.

Rob.

 

[filter-flo_rob]

How do know the starter is dead!

... been asked this privately and thought I'd pass it along.

When you take the mixture out of the oven, remove the cover and there is a clear liquid on top with no bubbles, froth or any of those tell-tale indicators:

--The oven may be too cold
--The oven may be too hot
--You took it out of the fridge and did not give it enough time to let it get re-adjusted
--You left it in there for a few days and forgot about it

Just feed and adjust accordingly!

On occasion, the latter condition may yield the water on top to have a brownish/greenish colour to it ... don't worry about it, just feed and stir (been there; done that).

No problemo ...

Rob.

 

[58limited]

While staying at my friend's house during Hurricane Ike, I read part of her cookbook on breads. I forgot the title of the book but I think it is "A World Of Breads" and was published in the 60s or 70s. Their recommendation for making a starter is interesting to me, and is probably how they were originally made: make a loose dough with the flour and water, put it in cheesecloth, and hang it outside for several days. Transfer to a container and feed as directed in previous posts. I'm afraid to do this in my swampy area because of all of the molds, I'm just going to buy the San Fransisco starter.

 

[filter-flo_rob]

Good morning, David ... et al.,

Your posting peaked my curiosity and I am looking around the web for additional information. Using cheese cloth, the way you suggested sounds like a logical approach to how wagon train sorts of people used to keep their "leavening"

Unfortunately, I could not find anything. I wonder if the Forxfire series has some info.

Here are a few interesting tid-bits I found whilst searching.

Rob.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/1086/just-random-sourdough-blog

When I do a wild yeast capture, I first bake two or three cups of raw flour for one hour at 300 degrees F and pre-boil all the water and the cheesecloth I’ll be using. Raw flour often has yeast and bacteria from the grain already in it and I want to KNOW where my yeast originated so I sterilized everything. But going to that much trouble is unnecessary if all you want is a good working yeast culture.

How To Make Sourdough Starter

Making your own sourdough starter is easy and it’s the first step in baking delicious artisan bread. Here is the Breadtopia video tutorial and recipe for creating your own wild yeast sourdough.

www.breadtopia.com

Making your own sourdough starter

 

[bajaespuma]

Sourdough Guru

Rob, If you ever want to meet a Master of sourdough, get in your car and drive about 50 miles west to Housatonic and introduce yourself to Richard Bourdan, proprietor of Under Mountain Bakery, near Great Barrington. He runs his bakery using the "Desem" method, meaning, among other things, he doesn't allow any commercial yeasts anywhere near his bakery so his sourdough cultures stay uncontaminated. That's the theory anyway. Practically everything I know about starting a sourdough culture I learned from talking to him. I sent two students of mine to work with him, apprentice-style, and now they own and operate an incredible bakery in SF called Tartine.
Richard instructed me to start a sourdough culture by mixing equal parts organic wheat flour and water by weight, sealing the mixture in a clear plastic container(make sure container has been SANITIZED) and then putting it in the basement for two weeks without disturbing it. Try this it works. The idea is, that at the end of two weeks, many different cultures of wild yeasts and bacteria will come and go, leaving the dominant strains which will be the basis of your "mother". Once two weeks are up, you'll have to feed and water the "mother", as prescribed, at least twice a day, three even better. I've done this only a few times, successfully, because once you have a viable culture, it will stay alive with proper care.
If things don't go well with your culture, their will be mold somewhere. If that happens, throw everything out, sanitize everything and start again.

 

[filter-flo_rob]

WOW ...

Ken,

Thank you for this great information!!! I shall try making a starter as you described. Also, I will most definitely plan on going!

I found their website: http://www.berkshiremountainbakery.com/
Berkshire Mountain Bakery, Inc.
367 Park Street, Route 183
Housatonic, MA 01236
[email protected]
Phone: 413-274-3412
Fax: 413-274-6124

You mention you sent "students." Are you a baker yourself?

Rob.

 

[bajaespuma]

Sorry, I said UnderMountain Bakery by mistake, but I'm glad you were able to find the website just the same.

Yes, I'm a baker and pastry chef by trade. I used to run a bread bakery down here in New Haven called Chabaso and we did a whole line of sourdough breads. I also teach baking classes at a local community college(which I love doing). As I've said many times to students, sourdough baking isn't that big a deal if you do it every day. That way maintaining starters is easy and a matter of course. If you try to do it once in a while it is very tricky because starters are like living creatures. They have to be fed and used regularly or they tend to change in ways that aren't conducive to baking. One of my instructors years ago used to tell us that it was "time to feed the pets" meaning that the starters that we were maintaining were like caged pets like hamsters that had to be fed on a strict schedule in order to stay alive, healthy and happy. Sourdough baking was a snap back in the day when people baked bread every day either at home or in communal ovens. Everyone had a starter and if yours died or was somehow lost, a neighbor would always be able to supply you with some of theirs. That's how the tradition of "friendship" breads and cakes began. Good luck with your endeavor. If you are interested I can steer to to many good books on the subject, but visiting Richard will make you a believer. He is the Zen master of sourdough.

 

[mattl]

Sourdough Rye

If I wanted to make a sourdough rye bread, should I use rye in the starter? Or, is it simply adding rye four when making the bread.

Growing up our family always loved- and still do - a great moist semi-heavy sourdough caraway rye. We got it in large 2-3lb. loaf so the sliced were always large. It was from our local small town bakery, in business for 50-60 years, had special ovens for the bread. Owner died, kids had no interest, widow sold the bakery to a guy that seems to be into baking. First thing to go was the ovens and the rye bread, not his type of bread - he liked a light fluffy rye bread. What ever. He survived over the last 10 years or so buy selling coffee and tea and doughnuts but has nowhere near the business the original owners had.

Now we get our caraway rye form out of town. My cousin brings in 5 or 6 loaves from a bakery across the state. It's OK, but not nearly as good as the "real" stuff. I'd love to find a way to get something close to what I remember.

 

[bajaespuma]

Rye

If I were you and I lived in Michigan I'd just go to Zingerman's in Ann Arbor.

IMHO you can use rye in the starter, but Bourdain doesn't recommend it. Use wheat initially to begin the starter and then gradually feed it with rye. Baking with rye is very difficult and tricky because of the starches in the grain and the fact that rye has very limited gluten proteins. You might want to find some High Gluten flour or "Clear" flour to work with and all of this stuff can be found on-line or from the King Arthur Flour company. Good luck!

 

[mattl]

Zingerman's

Yes, I've made many a trip down there, but not for rye bread. Love the sandwiches and other breads, just not fond of their caraway rye.

What I've found is that perhaps this type of bread was peculiar to this area. Everyone here grew up with it and it became the "standard" against which all other rye breads are measured.

Thanks for the tips, I might attempt rye bread making after the holidays...

 

[bajaespuma]

Bread tours

I never appreciated the scope of rye baking nor the art until I went to a seminar for professional bakers in Hannover at their baking school. Their are many such trips planned every year and many people from all walks of life go along, you don't necessarily have to be a pro. You might want to contact Gina Piccolino(a sweetheart) at the Bread Baker's Guild of America, located in Pittsburgh. I haven't had contact with them for a while but they would know when and where some of these tours are happening. They're wonderful vacations if you're into this stuff because you get the pleasure of travel to a country with a focus on baking and food and you're with people who are generally into what you want to see and experience. I've visisted Germany three times and I would go back in an instant if I had funds and time to do it. I've said this to many students and even in these times, it's pretty easy if you have time to do it. In this country, unfortunately, rye bread means white bread with caraway seeds and maybe a little white rye flour added. The era of great German bakeries has passed. Even in France you can eat some wonderful hearty rye breads that don't get made a lot in this country. Look for an artisan bakery near you for the closest examples of the real thing. Rye bread baking is, in my experience, the most advanced discipline of bread baking. Their are far many more things that can go wrong if you don't know what you're doing.