Why are there setups where there is a tumble washer and a spin-dryer? Why can't the tumble washer do a spin dry?
Spin Dryer
- Thread starter Chetlaham
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Many older h-axis washing machines final spin topped out at 800 to 1100 rpms. Earlier such machines had even lower spin speeds of around 400 or less. Needless to say this results in plenty of water being retained in wash resulting in long drying times.
American housewives and even laundries never bothered much about high levels of residual moisture in wash once tumble dryers came on scene. You simply baked all that water out of laundry. Given relatively inexpensive energy prices in USA no one was bothered, until Congress gave EPA a stick to beat people over head with.
Energy prices for much of Europe tend to be more dear than USA, thus dryers aren't or weren't common. People just hung up wet wash on a horse, airier, outdoors, etc.. and waited for things to drip dry.
Either using a dryer or line drying spinning out more water in a spin dryer results in faster drying times.
It varies by type of item, but wash taken from my Miele (spun at 1100 rps) dries about ten percent or more faster when bunged in spin dryer for about three minutes. You notice difference especially with thick and absorbent things like bath linens, blankets, etc....
Less long winded answer is there are two main ways of removing moisture from wash; you can extract it out (spin drying) or evaporate (line or machine drying). The more you do of the former less of it is needed with latter, and in case of using energy to generate heat that means less of that is used as well.
American housewives and even laundries never bothered much about high levels of residual moisture in wash once tumble dryers came on scene. You simply baked all that water out of laundry. Given relatively inexpensive energy prices in USA no one was bothered, until Congress gave EPA a stick to beat people over head with.
Energy prices for much of Europe tend to be more dear than USA, thus dryers aren't or weren't common. People just hung up wet wash on a horse, airier, outdoors, etc.. and waited for things to drip dry.
Either using a dryer or line drying spinning out more water in a spin dryer results in faster drying times.
It varies by type of item, but wash taken from my Miele (spun at 1100 rps) dries about ten percent or more faster when bunged in spin dryer for about three minutes. You notice difference especially with thick and absorbent things like bath linens, blankets, etc....
Less long winded answer is there are two main ways of removing moisture from wash; you can extract it out (spin drying) or evaporate (line or machine drying). The more you do of the former less of it is needed with latter, and in case of using energy to generate heat that means less of that is used as well.
Excellent explanation!
Why did early front loads only spin to 400rpm?
Why did early front loads only spin to 400rpm?
Will leave that for others to explain....
FWIU it simply came down to various things such as motors with enough power, suspension systems to handle forces generated, and or technology available at time.
Keep in mind Bendix had tons of patents for H-axis washers locked up. If others wanted to make similar machines they either had to pay Bendix for use of their patents, or find ways around that didn't violate.
Even early twin tub washers by Easy, General Electric, and others with separate spin dryer compartments didn't spin very fast. Their spin speeds were around 600 to 700 rpms, same as many automatic top loaders that would follow.
Some of the rest you can glean from this article about hard mount commercial washers. https://bandctech.com/commercial-la...-high-speed-hardmounts-in-commerical-laundry/
Also as always it helps to check the archives: https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?38587
Here is a patent held by Alliance Laundry Systems for load imbalance and extraction speed selection: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20070294838
FWIU it simply came down to various things such as motors with enough power, suspension systems to handle forces generated, and or technology available at time.
Keep in mind Bendix had tons of patents for H-axis washers locked up. If others wanted to make similar machines they either had to pay Bendix for use of their patents, or find ways around that didn't violate.
Even early twin tub washers by Easy, General Electric, and others with separate spin dryer compartments didn't spin very fast. Their spin speeds were around 600 to 700 rpms, same as many automatic top loaders that would follow.
Some of the rest you can glean from this article about hard mount commercial washers. https://bandctech.com/commercial-la...-high-speed-hardmounts-in-commerical-laundry/
Also as always it helps to check the archives: https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?38587
Here is a patent held by Alliance Laundry Systems for load imbalance and extraction speed selection: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20070294838
Here is a video from a "Wash In" showcasing a members new to him Philco-Bendix washer coupled with American Motex extractor.
You can see that the spin dryer removes quite a bit of water from finished wash.
There was a time extractors by Bock and others were routinely found in American laundromats. Injuries including one that resulted in death of a young child (or was he just severely maimed?) resulted in Bock being sued to nearly out of existence.
Some laundromats still offered extractors, but many took them out of service either by choice or by insurance mandate.
You can see that the spin dryer removes quite a bit of water from finished wash.
There was a time extractors by Bock and others were routinely found in American laundromats. Injuries including one that resulted in death of a young child (or was he just severely maimed?) resulted in Bock being sued to nearly out of existence.
Some laundromats still offered extractors, but many took them out of service either by choice or by insurance mandate.
How fast does that Philoc Bendix spin? Did the lack of electronics play a role?
I know newer machines have sensors and do all sorts of load distribution while older machines would just engage a 4 pole motor...
Thanks for the info, I will start reading/digesting it.
I know newer machines have sensors and do all sorts of load distribution while older machines would just engage a 4 pole motor...
Thanks for the info, I will start reading/digesting it.
My newish AEG Lavamat is streets ahead of older (from 1990's) Miele washer in terms of spinning.
Lavamat like many modern front loaders isn't just controlled by "electronics", but entire washer pretty much runs off the motherboard. Everything from motor to drum movements can be controlled resulting in less unbalanced loads and smooth spinning.
The Miele OTOH will make a few attempts at balancing a load before it spins, but when timer moves to "SPIN" that is what machine will do regardless. This even if it means banging, clanging and shifting out of place. Later Miele washers got an out of balance detection system that would stop machine in case of severe issues.
Lavamat like many modern front loaders isn't just controlled by "electronics", but entire washer pretty much runs off the motherboard. Everything from motor to drum movements can be controlled resulting in less unbalanced loads and smooth spinning.
The Miele OTOH will make a few attempts at balancing a load before it spins, but when timer moves to "SPIN" that is what machine will do regardless. This even if it means banging, clanging and shifting out of place. Later Miele washers got an out of balance detection system that would stop machine in case of severe issues.
I want timers lol.
If you're refering to the The Laundry Alternative Niagara (and now the promotional combo that comes a Niagara and a Ninja spin dryer at a reduced price)
The answer is very simple, as I created the concept and designed both products.
PORTABILITY.
1) Any washer that spins require a complex suspension system, being HATL, it would also require stabilizers (concrete blocks) this adds A LOT of weight to any washer.
2) We needed a solution that is extremely lightweight, as the sales are 100% online. We can't ship anything above an specific limit, unless we use white glove service, that is absurdly expensive.
3) The target consumer lives in small apartments with no dedicated space and hookups for a washer. The solution has to be convenient to use in a bathroom or kitchen, connected to a regular sink faucet and after use, the washer has to be portable enough to be repositioned in a closet. You can't to that with a washer that heavy. Think of an old lady with weak arms moving a 100+ lbs front load washer. The Niagara is 19lbs, the same old lady can lift the washer with one hand or glide it without scratching the floors.
Also, the product MSRP has several limitations. if we add a spin cycle, it would cost basically the same as a high end front load washer ($900+) and if we add the shipping cost, we would reach average ($1500) If you can afford $1500 on a washer, you probably wouldn't live in a tiny home.
We are also developing a HATL model that spins at 1650rpm (and also a version that dries, including a GAS drying version), full of bells and whistles, including Alexa/Siri/Cortana/ integration, targeted to luxury market (of course it will cost a fortune)
Put everything together. we have the Niagara.
And regarding patents... the HATL wash system patent expired decades ago and it's public domain. (a top load washer that has a rotating drum and the drum has an opening to add and remove clothes from the top). We can (and did) patent specific details and designs pertinent to that model.
The answer is very simple, as I created the concept and designed both products.
PORTABILITY.
1) Any washer that spins require a complex suspension system, being HATL, it would also require stabilizers (concrete blocks) this adds A LOT of weight to any washer.
2) We needed a solution that is extremely lightweight, as the sales are 100% online. We can't ship anything above an specific limit, unless we use white glove service, that is absurdly expensive.
3) The target consumer lives in small apartments with no dedicated space and hookups for a washer. The solution has to be convenient to use in a bathroom or kitchen, connected to a regular sink faucet and after use, the washer has to be portable enough to be repositioned in a closet. You can't to that with a washer that heavy. Think of an old lady with weak arms moving a 100+ lbs front load washer. The Niagara is 19lbs, the same old lady can lift the washer with one hand or glide it without scratching the floors.
Also, the product MSRP has several limitations. if we add a spin cycle, it would cost basically the same as a high end front load washer ($900+) and if we add the shipping cost, we would reach average ($1500) If you can afford $1500 on a washer, you probably wouldn't live in a tiny home.
We are also developing a HATL model that spins at 1650rpm (and also a version that dries, including a GAS drying version), full of bells and whistles, including Alexa/Siri/Cortana/ integration, targeted to luxury market (of course it will cost a fortune)
Put everything together. we have the Niagara.
And regarding patents... the HATL wash system patent expired decades ago and it's public domain. (a top load washer that has a rotating drum and the drum has an opening to add and remove clothes from the top). We can (and did) patent specific details and designs pertinent to that model.
Your last link is rather eye opening. Double the RPM and you almost half the energy needed to dry a load.
Washer Without Weights
You know... one could in theory build a combo with low spin speed and rely on the drying portion of the cycle to do most of the work. Simple timer for control. Would be an interesting concept though energy heavy.
You know... one could in theory build a combo with low spin speed and rely on the drying portion of the cycle to do most of the work. Simple timer for control. Would be an interesting concept though energy heavy.
Niagra
@Thomas: Do you have the tech sheet/cycle sequence for this machine? Any pics of the internals? What type of motor does it use? Must know more, way to cool!!!!!!!!
@Thomas: Do you have the tech sheet/cycle sequence for this machine? Any pics of the internals? What type of motor does it use? Must know more, way to cool!!!!!!!!
Actually no, you can't...
Sometimes the niagara walks half inch tothe side (and comes back as soon as the drum reverses) during the wash (washer full of water, heavy) because the weight isn't enough and also because there's no suspension system.
Without a suspension, even tumbling with no water could make the washer jump.
During the product development, i tried to make it spin at super low speed, only to remove the excess water so clothes wouldn't come out dripping wet. the test lasted less than 10 seconds and the idea was aborted. LOL
Sometimes the niagara walks half inch tothe side (and comes back as soon as the drum reverses) during the wash (washer full of water, heavy) because the weight isn't enough and also because there's no suspension system.
Without a suspension, even tumbling with no water could make the washer jump.
During the product development, i tried to make it spin at super low speed, only to remove the excess water so clothes wouldn't come out dripping wet. the test lasted less than 10 seconds and the idea was aborted. LOL
Launderess
Regarding spin speed, there's something everybody that knows how to do laundry knows..
Not everything has to be about "energy efficiency".
1800 rpm obviously will extract more water, consequently you'll use less electricity (or gas) to dry the clothes.
HOWEVER
the clothes will last much less because of the stress caused by the higher G
So... the key is balance energy efficiency with "results".
I could make a washer that uses almost no water (just a 10 second spray on the clothes), no hot water at all, agitates for only 2 minutes on the longest wash cycle, rinse with a 3 second spray and spins at 20.000 RPM. it would be probably the very best washer in the world in terms of energy efficiency and water consumption. But.... What about performance? I would see a riot in front of our factory and protesters creating a group called GWM (good washers matter)
Regarding spin speed, there's something everybody that knows how to do laundry knows..
Not everything has to be about "energy efficiency".
1800 rpm obviously will extract more water, consequently you'll use less electricity (or gas) to dry the clothes.
HOWEVER
the clothes will last much less because of the stress caused by the higher G
So... the key is balance energy efficiency with "results".
I could make a washer that uses almost no water (just a 10 second spray on the clothes), no hot water at all, agitates for only 2 minutes on the longest wash cycle, rinse with a 3 second spray and spins at 20.000 RPM. it would be probably the very best washer in the world in terms of energy efficiency and water consumption. But.... What about performance? I would see a riot in front of our factory and protesters creating a group called GWM (good washers matter)
Why not? I would doubt any of is proprietary or trade secret.
@R11
No, can't be done I'm afraid.
Even vintage bolt down Bendix washers of old with their 300 rpm spin speed needed to be bolted down as directed.
There isn't a free lunch with H-Axis washing machines; forces generated during tumbling or spinning must be addressed somehow. Either by suspension system, or bolting into several feet of concrete or other substantial surface.
H-Axis washers are designed to send forced down to floor where they will dissipate throughout structure. Bolt down washers do more of this but units with suspension systems do as well.
In commercial use washer/extractors above a certain weight capacity most always have robust suspension systems nowadays. It is seen as preferable to sending all that forces down into the building which could cause all sorts of problems. Not saying would shake building apart, but under certain conditions those vibrations would be felt far and wide in building.
One reason early spin drier washers by Easy,GE and others weren't popular was because units tended to go walk about during spinning. Easy even sold little rubber casters to slip under washer's legs in aid of preventing this from happening. Many housewives weren't convinced and stuck with wringer washers. They may not have excelled at extracting water, but neither did they zoom around kitchen or laundry room either.
No, can't be done I'm afraid.
Even vintage bolt down Bendix washers of old with their 300 rpm spin speed needed to be bolted down as directed.
There isn't a free lunch with H-Axis washing machines; forces generated during tumbling or spinning must be addressed somehow. Either by suspension system, or bolting into several feet of concrete or other substantial surface.
H-Axis washers are designed to send forced down to floor where they will dissipate throughout structure. Bolt down washers do more of this but units with suspension systems do as well.
In commercial use washer/extractors above a certain weight capacity most always have robust suspension systems nowadays. It is seen as preferable to sending all that forces down into the building which could cause all sorts of problems. Not saying would shake building apart, but under certain conditions those vibrations would be felt far and wide in building.
One reason early spin drier washers by Easy,GE and others weren't popular was because units tended to go walk about during spinning. Easy even sold little rubber casters to slip under washer's legs in aid of preventing this from happening. Many housewives weren't convinced and stuck with wringer washers. They may not have excelled at extracting water, but neither did they zoom around kitchen or laundry room either.
Anyway, can anyone tell me more about the Niagara? How many rinses does it do? PSC motor? I like the timer's labeling/setup.
Three rinses, standard (NOT ALUMINUM motor), belt drive electric Askoll pump, double solenoid fill valve (one of all fills and other for fabric softener), electromechanical timer, no electronics at all as per consumer requests, body 100% PP, SS and PP drum, water level intentionally high (1/3 of the drum) and, as expected for any HATL washer, the capacity is impressive for the size of the washer.
Extremely simple design.
More simple than that, impossible.
Extremely simple design.
More simple than that, impossible.
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