St. Charles Cabinets, Thermador DW.

[danemodsandy]

St. Charles Redux - NOT.

St. Charles was resurrected for a time - by the Viking Range people. There was a huge publicity push, and it got a lot of press - I did a product feature about it for Modernism Magazine.

Sadly, the product was seriously, seriously expensive, not the swiftest move in today's economy. A single base cabinet was over two grand. Sales were about what you'd expect, with the result that Viking threw in the towel last year.

If someone else is trying to have another go at it, more power to 'em, but I can't imagine anyone would after the Viking debacle.

 

[combo52]

Real Thermador DW

This was the earlier version than the one shown in the brochure that was posted here, this DW had the same wash system but it used two separate pumps and motors like most DWs do today. This DW did feel pretty thin and tinny but at least it was built of REAL SS unlike the later Waste-King DWs that were made of magnet muffler metal, LOL.

 

I have one of the 2nd generation TDs with one motor that has a pump on both ends if anyone wants to do a wright-up test report. Calling Nate.

 

[philr]

The car in the SNL video is a late seventies Mercury Cougar 4 door. Similar to a Ford LTD II...

 

Unfortunately, I can't watch the video as the content is blocked outside the US (but there's a blurry still image of the car visible). 

 

[bigalsf]

Thermador dishwasher

Hi John, how can you tell it's the earlier model?

 

[combo52]

Real Thermador DW

Hi Alan, the TD DW in the ad with the St C cabinets has an earlier style control panel, we had several of that model years ago and they all had a completely seperate motor and pump for draining, they still had a Gorman-Rupp main pump [ in fact it was exactly the same as the motor and pump used in the early wash-arm WP DWs and the interior was the same.   I do want to hook-up my TD DW one of these years it would be neat to see one run. One of the earlier style TD DWs we had years ago we used to put a gallon of Varsol in itand clean old washer transmission parts in it, it worked well for this until all the metal particles ruined the main pump seal. After this experience we used an old WH impeller DW where you don't have a main shaft seal to ruin.

 

[firedome]

"St. Charles Redux... not"

Humbly beg to differ... last August the NY reps for St Charles announced at a press conference in Manhattan that they were resurrecting the brand under the aegis of "St Charles of NY"... I was in the city at the time and happened to see it on TV. And mention of it was also made in retrorenovation.com, if memory serves (which it doesn't always at my age).

 

[firedome]

St. Charles revivified

To wit:

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retrorenovation.com

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retrorenovation.com

 

[danemodsandy]

Well,

I wish 'em lots of mazel, but if Viking, with its existing manufacturing capability and its non-union Mississippi labor force, could not price the product affordably *, I don't see how this group is going to be able to.

Not saying it can't be done, but I am saying that people who really, really knew what they were doing tried it and fell on their keesters. There will always be architecturally-educated customers who want what St. Charles have to offer, but will there be enough of them over time to sustain the brand? I'm not so sure.

* I mean "affordably" in terms of wealthy customers, of course. $2000 for one base cabinet is nosebleed territory even for the rich. And steel cabinets do not speak to the considerations of fashion and status that today's rich - many of whom have had their money since day before yesterday - demand be observed. Smallbone is much more up the alley of today's nouveaux riches.

 

[firedome]

Risky, perhaps, but...

they're in the right market no doubt. Hard to swing a dead cat around there without hitting a Morgan Stanley analyst or someone living off their private equity funds or inflated real estate; prices of co-ops on Columbia Heights are going for a tad more than when Lindsay couldn't keep the streets shoveled. Even Park Slope is becoming trendy spendy these days; Brooklyn is the new Manhattan, don't you know!...and it was becoming so even 6 years ago when Dear Daughter sold her place off of Atlantic Ave. en route to Denver. Sleek metal Euro-influenced kitchens are de rigeur with a certain set - so maybe the folks at St Charles of NY figure that they can cash in on metal mania... there's always a market for the best.

 

[danemodsandy]

Roger:

Here's my worry:

All the prospective customers you mention had four years of Viking's ownership to support the brand - which they didn't. And Viking offered things that this group may never be able to, such as the length of time in business that reassures a prospective high-dollar customer you're going to be around long enough to honor the warranty.

Again, if these entrepreneurs make this work, no one will be happier than me. But I just don't see how they're going to.

And all this having been said, I wish I were in a financial position to build a new kitchen right now, because I would be very happy to get some of these cabinets while the getting is good.

 

[firedome]

danemod Sandy...

everything you said is spot on, but the guess is that they must be hoping that by limiting marketing and distribution to a very narrow geo- & demo-graphic they can target buyers with means efficiently enough to thrive. No idea if manufacturing will remain where it was, and who knows whether they actually did a market study or are going seat-of-pants. Evidently Viking wasn't hugely losing shirt on StC but wanted to concentrate on core and most profitable product, a popular trend in business. One would hope that these NY guys are savvy enough to know what they're doing, not just throwing $$$ down a rat hole on a whim ... however it wouldn't be the first time. No doubt be v interesting to see what happens. Supposedly StCNY was long one of the most successful of their vendors, so maybe it makes sense. Super high-end products always seem to have their appeal, and there are always those with the means, particularly in NY: witness the success of audio "salons" such as Oswalds Mill Audio in Dumbo, with their $50K speakers, oswaldsmillaudio.com. Fortunately for us peons there are some terrific bargains to be had in used St. Charles, and there's much treatment of that subject on the eponymous retrorenovation.com

 

[hydralique]

If St. Charles could really compete with the upper-end European cabinet manufacturers it would be great as shipping from Europe is a real pain. A couple of years ago I did a major remodel of a nice mid-century house and the owner chose Italian cabinets. They weren't cheap, I think about 75K for 22 lineal feet of cabinets plus a 7'-6" x 4' island, but this did include countertops and Bosch and Thermador appliances. The owner originally wanted Viking appliances and German cabinets but that was pushing things too close to 100K. The Italian cabinets were very nice, but of course it took forever to get them and then somehow the upper cabinet flipper doors arrived in the wrong finish, plus something else got damaged during installation. These items had to be reshipped which took about 6 weeks, and then installed after the owner had moved into the house which meant more coordination between the kitchen contractor, general contractor, and the owner. This also meant working in an otherwise finished kitchen and the new wood floor got scratched. The general contractor blamed the kitchen contractor, the kitchen contractor said the scratch was there first but nobody had noticed (most likely untrue), and the owner refused to pay either until the scratch was fixed. Thankfully the general contractor's flooring guy was able to fix it but I don't recall if the kitchen contractor ever reimbursed the general contractor for the repair. What a PITA!

 

For most projects I much prefer to design the cabinets which can then be built and installed by a local cabinetmaker. That way he's responsible for both manufacturing and installation, and if a non-standard cabinet size is needed (this is very common with a remodel) it is no problem at all, and any mistakes get rectified in a week or so rather than a month or two.

 

[circlew]

I've always thought anything by Viking was way overpriced. This new company may contract the manufacturing out to a company that already makes metal cabinet, such as those used in labs.