Steam Heat

[austinado16]

When we restored our 1903 Victorian, I chose to go with a modern natural gas fired hydronic heating system. So we have a small boiler in the craw space. It's about the size of carry-on luggage. It houses a burner and water pump.

Each room in the house has a long baseboard style radiator and in the kitchen, master bath, and around the bed in the master bedroom, we have heated floors.

I grew in Alaska with an oil fired version of this system, and having lived in a home with a cheesy 70's era forced air system, there was no way I wasn't going to have baseboard radiant heating.

Love this system! The entire house is warmed, as if there is a fireplace running. The system also feeds a continuous hot water tank, so we have unlimited hot water.

 

[miele_ge]

Dave, that would be great

Thanks for offering to ask around about the radiators. I had found a guy in Massachussetts who dealt in them but he never would call me back. I suspect he has more than he needs right now. But you never know.

Alan

 

[volvoguy87]

Okay

I'm away from home right now, then I'll be visiting my family for Thanksgiving, but I'll ask all along the way. I'd take them, but I don't own a steam system on which I could use them

Cheers,
Dave

 

[mistereric]

I miss living in a home with radiators and baseboards. Since I moved into my own home, a slab house in NJ, I've been unimpressed with the forced air system. I suppose I am lucky that they didn't run ductwork under the slab in asbestos lined pipes (!) but the above-the-ceiling ductwork is awful for heating. The Continuous Air Circulation model sounds like it would be helpful but I wonder if it can be retrofitted into a system from 2004.

I guess i'll stick with my electric blanket.

 

[toggleswitch]

Those Danfoss brand non-electric thermostatic valves that regulate air to the air-vent valve are superb; they are the BEST.

Personally I think they need to be made MANDATORY in NYC where there is no other way to control steam heat within the apartment. Well except of course in any room that has a wall -thermostat, especially it if controls THE BUILDING.

Here is a Heat-Timer brand computerized control system for steam boilers. I saw it in the field today. With a Heat-Timer system my idea is put two thermostats connected in parallel and then use those as a high temperature limit (in series with the Heat-Timer) to over-ride the Heat-Timer system.

I think the biggest problem with cheating complaints in New York Cit it that tenants expect to be be able to run around in short-sleeves and shorts in mid-winter. I had a landlord complain bitterly to me that in his building his Caribbean-born (and other tenants from hot climates) want to recreate the tropical climatic conditions indoors in winter. UH that's not the intention of the heating laws. Apparently they also have no clue how expensive heating a building is.

My understanding is that the higher models have a yellow case and record when the heat is actually on and off. A tenant with an axe to grind can cause MAJOR problems if they scream "NO HEAT" to the authorities. Some do it just for kicks I have heard.

http://www.heat-timer.com/En/Index.aspx

 

[toggleswitch]

Quote: The Continuous Air Circulation model sounds like it would be helpful but I wonder if it can be retrofitted into a system from 2004.

I'm sure it is possible. You will need a continuous-duty, multi-speed blower motor.

In a perfect world the fan speed during heating is normally slower than the cooling speed anyway.

Worse case scenario is that you can find or make a timer and/or relay that effectively turns on the "FAN" switch of your thermostat (by closing that circuit in the wires feeding the thermosat)

Perhaps 3 minutes "ON" and 12 minutes "OFF"

Rinse, repeat, incessantly.

BTW I have an idea for a "destratifier" to be placed in the utility room that will suck and blow air into your dining room...let's speak.

 

[launderess]

Heat Complaints From Multiple Unit Housing

In NYC ranges the gamut IMHO. However will say at least in our area/my little sampling the problems come from buildings that have improperly sized/designed heating systems.

Many NYC apartment/condo/co-op buildings are >25 or >50 and in some cases >75 years old. Obviously heating systems have changed quite allot over the years,also changes to the building to preserve energy such as double or triple pane windows. What usually happens is the boiler is either still sized or designed to heat a "leaky" building,when in reality it is not that drafty.

Because the heating system has not been overhauled since FDR, or JFK was in office you have situations such as:

Lower floors are roasting, while upper floors are "cold"
Constant problems with "jack hammering", mainly because units are trying to control the heat by closing or partially shutting valves.

Speaking of boilers:

Amoung those with "money to burn" set, Buderus is supposed to be the schnizzel! *LOL*

http://www.buderus.us/products/oilheating/oilconventional/logano115ws.html

 

[whirlcool]

In the building I lived in with steam heat the upper floors were the hottest with the lower floors the coolest. And of course, I was on the top floor!

Maybe I should have counted my blessings. We could have had a miserly landlord and had no heat at all!

 

[toggleswitch]

Yes, it's my loo........

Normal "naked" steam convector ("radiator") in recessed radiator enclosure. Cover removed to show guts.

Air flows up through finned "coils" by natural convection.

Yes people, I had them cleaned and painted INSIDE as a proper lady who knows how to keep house would! One does not paint-on the covers, should there be a need to gain access. [this post was last edited: 11/13/2010-00:31]

 

[toggleswitch]

A simple layer of aluminum foil serves to limit heat output GREATLY [double thick for ordinary foil, or one layer of heavy-duty (thicker) foil].

This is much preferable to touching the steam (supply) valve, in that such valve MUST be all-the-way open or tightly closed. No in-between or it will bang more than an attractive hooker during fleet week.

One simply rolls-up the foil from the rear an inch (say 2.5cm)or more for greater heat across the unit, as needed. [this post was last edited: 11/13/2010-00:46]

 

[toggleswitch]

In the living room I installed this valve (brass with red handle) below the air-vent valve to keep the radiator cool. The radiator, once cooled off, will not re-heat.

In order for steam in a one-pipe sytem to enter the raditator, air must be purged. It is this valve's function (i.e. the upper chrome thingy) to stop the steam from escaping, one the air has been purged. It is a simple mechanical, thermostatically-operated valve.

The aluminum foil here is just used to show that it can be used to limit heat! I now tend to use the red-handled valve!

Eventually I will extend the air-vent pipe/tubes to outside of the "radiator" enclosure and place a Danfoss-type automatic mechanical thermostatically-operated valve that respond to room temerature to regulate the heat output of this and other units in the apratment. [this post was last edited: 11/13/2010-00:44]

 

[toggleswitch]

Quote: In the building I lived in with steam heat the upper floors were the hottest with the lower floors the coolest.

The upper floors should have the faster air-vent valves. They have a bigger hole (*COUGH*) to vent air quicker.

The lower floors should have slower ones.

RARELY are buildings properly balanced this way. [this post was last edited: 11/13/2010-00:46]

http://www.inspectapedia.com/heat/Steam_Vents.htm

 

[toggleswitch]

Here's the loo heater, covered.

Painting the inside makes them look fabulous!

 

[toggleswitch]

Gorton.

Scarily "Double Ds" are the biggest!

http://www.gorton-valves.com/specify.htm

 

[sudsmaster]

Forced Air Comfort

Yes, there is a chill factor when the systems first come on, and often when they cycle off, when they blow cold air for a a minute or less.

However, I noticed the overall comfort level of my home improved dramatically with the forced air system, when I sealed off air leaks in the ceiling and put in ample insulation in the attic. There is still a heat delivery problem in the master bed/bath addition, which I attribute to a poor duct design (the ductwork to those rooms is of a smaller diamter than that serving the rest of the home), but overall the system functions well and there is not an overly freeze/thaw effect when the home is properly insulated.

Never lived with steam heat, although one apartment we lived in San Francisco had hot water heating. It was ok but difficult to regulate, so I wound up leaving a window open above the radiator in my bedroom most of the time. My mom later moved to another place with steam heat, which she loved, but when the system broke down the landlord replaced it with individual gas heaters in each apartment, which she didn't like. The steam heat had radiators in each room (including bedroom), while the gas heater was stuck in the entrance hallway where the heat stayed and the rest of the rooms stayed cold. The landlord did this instead of fixing the central system because the steam heat was formerly included in rent, while the cost of the gas for the space heater was on the tenants.

Eventually I'll fix the bad duct design in my current home to correct the heat delivery issue (there also may be an obstruction inside the ductwork leading to that area). When I get a round toit.

 

[suburbanmd]

Convectors

Toggleswitch, my apartment had convectors like that. I got a thermostatic valve which had a separate wall-mounted dial, attached to the valve by a few feet of thin, somewhat flexible tubing. Are those still available?

 

[sudsmaster]

I should add that the chill factor with forced air systems, due to the blower coming on before the heat exchanger has gotten hot, and after the gas has been shut off, is to allow the heat exchanger to come to temperature gradually, and to cool off gradually. This helps to minimize thermal stress on the metal in the heat exchanger, minimizing cracking and helping to prevent leaks. I know it's possible to alter the time that the system blows cold air, but I'd rather have a longer life on the heat exchanger than a little more comfort at the beginning and end of cycles.

The initial forced air is colder than room temp because it's been sitting in the ductwork in an unheated area for a while. On my system it's most noticible on start-up, on the coldest days, but generally lasts only about 30 seconds or less (judging from memory). Even with altering the blower time, there will still be a bolus of cold air in the duct work that will come out at the start of a cycle. Nature of the beast, unless one wants to stick the heater and all the ductwork in a heated air space.

 

[sudsmaster]

Forced air ductwork is rarely insulated,

Maybe 30 years ago, but these days all new ductwork is insulated, usually with an inch or more of fiberglass.

This house was built in '41 and the heated side of the ductwork was simply wrapped in asbestos tape. The unheated side was just bare metal. When I weatherized the house one of the things I did was to use non-asbestos fiberglass/mastic tape to seal all the seams (some of which had worked loose and were leaking), and then cover all the ductwork with foil faced fiberglass 1" insulation, the foil side out. Then I sealed all the joins in the foil covering with foil tape. This effectively insulated the ducts as well as limited the amount of asbestos that might later otherwise become airborne. I also added the same 1" insulation around the return ductwork. Not the best application but I figured it could help keep things warmer between cycles.

The area under the master bed/bath addition already had sloppily insulated ducts. My possible mistake was in not removing that old fiberglass insulation, sealing the seams, and then insulating it. Instead I just installed insulation over the old stuff. It was sealed with foil tape so any leaks probably don't get very far, but I'm probably someday going to remove the outer insulation, seal all the seams, and then re-install the insulation. When I get a round toit.

PS-After I weatherized/insulated the house and sealed/insulated the ductwork, I noticed an immediate difference in the amount of time the furnace would fire up on cold days. Instead of being on for an hour or more, it would come on for only 30 minutes or less on the coldest days. The gas bills (actually number of therms consumed) dropped proportionately - a nice result.

One benefit of forced air systems, not mentioned so far, is that with good filtration it can actually clean up the house air a fair amount. The best filters even remove cooking odors and smoke. In tightly sealed homes, this could be an important factor.

 

[toggleswitch]

Great idea to get one with a remote sensor!

 

[whirlcool]

A little off topic buy pertinent.
While I was in college I had an apartment which had these little gas space heaters. No pilot light, no safety valve. Just a gas on and off turncock. If the gas flamed out it'd just sit there dumping gas into the apartment. These things were all over the place in many different apartment buildings and houses.
I wonder how many people a year those things killed. I know in places like IL & MN, they are illegal.