STPP, Borax, Washing Soda

[stan]

This subject came up at work, I was looked to by two people for answers.
One girl that has a top loading Kenmore, who uses a clear non scented liquid dertergent, has discovered Borax, and has been adding it along with her detergent, and is getting what she says is..great results. (1/4 cup) Especially for odor removal. She says everything comes out cleaner, brighter and fresher with its addition.
Someone else who has a modern FL machine, using liquid detergent (dont know what) says he has discovered Washing Soda, and uses 2 TBLS added along with his detergent, and swears the same for its addition.
Both claimed their machines and laundry sinks where cleaner with their additions.
Yesterday, I decided to give them both some STPP
Suggested the TL user to try adding 3 TBLS of the STPP to her loads (when I use STPP, thats the dosage I've found that breaks the water for me, in my TL machine)
And suggested the FL user to try adding 1TBLS to his, instead of the Washing Soda.
The TL user was so happy with her Borax, but was willing to try the STPP. However she used her Borax too. She's says the STPP and her Borax performed very well together.. better than her Borax and detergent alone.
The FL user has not tried replacing his Washing Soda with the STPP..yet. He wasn't using very much of the soda anyway..so
I was reluctant to throw in another additive for them to play with.. but it's done now.
I did my best to explain that all three were water softeners, and explain their differences.
Anyone have thought as to the can of worms I've opened?

 

[arbilab]

Maybe just my water-- typical one part per thousand dissolved solids-- I get VERY soft towels with Tide + STPP, concentrated in a twintub.  No suds to speak of, not hard to rinse. 

 

Wouldn't use LFS if you paid me.

 

[launderess]

You are confusing your friends

Because you are confusing the properties of the three various substances. *LOL*

Yes, borax, STPP and washing soda are all substances that to some degree all provide base pH level in water. Also yes all three will soften water by binding hard minerals (phosphates are non-precipitating, while borax and washing soda are precipitating), but after that things begin to vary by substance.

Borax actually releases small amounts of oxygen in water. Not as much as hydrogen peroxide, but still enough to help deal with whiffy laundry. The natural antibacterial and antifungal properties of borax also help bring down stink levels. Result is fresh smelling laundry.

https://www.20muleteamlaundry.com/about

Washing soda (pH of 11) (also known as sodium carbonate, sal soda, or soda ash) is higher on the pH scale than borax (9.3).

The higher pH means washing soda cuts grease, boosts cleaning power, but also will neutralize acid based soils found on laundry (and their associated odors). Since most if not many fluids excreted by humans are slightly acidic to neutral, the raised pH in wash water will help cope with whiffyness. Perhaps not as effectively as borax, but never the less.

Liquid laundry detergents tend to run neutral to only slightly alkaline. Unlike powdered detergents which rely upon washing soda and other caustic substances which tend to be base pH. This explains why so many who use liquid detergents exclusively complain some or all of their washing still has a whiff about it after all is done. Your friend who added borax found out what many of us know; she put back what was missing in a liquid detergent and "boosted" performance.

Personally when not using oxygen bleach always add a bit of borax to loads where using liquid detergents. It boosts cleaning power, gets rid of smells, and by raising the pH level helps keep my washers clean and smelling fresh.

Quite honestly don't see the need for washing soda these days. If anything would go with STPP which does everything caustic soda does, but is far gentler to fabrics.

 

[tomturbomatic]

Stan, I am glad that they thanked you for your generosity and expertise and noticed the improvement so it was not an exercise in throwing pearls before swine. The comment about the improved appearance of the laundry sink was surprising verging on nauseating. Those of us who grew up in the days when laundering was treated as serious business are a vanishing breed. Youngsters don't care about the finer points so most laundry products cater to their lowered expectations. Fragrances are worn to deal with the lack of complete soil removal.

Maybe they will share their knowledge with others thanks to you!

 

[stan]

Thanks dear

I hope I didn't confuse them too much LOL
I did my best to explain the differences between precipitating and non-precipitating water softeners.
And while only suggesting.. I was firm with the washing soda user, the he at least try to replace the soda with STPP and see.
The girl is very observant about her laundry (unusual these days) she is a mother with two teenage boys and her husband is a painting contractor, so she has some dirty laundry to deal with.
Because she has a TL machine, she was willing to follow my recommendation of water testing.
I suggested that she fill her washer to med/high with warm water (no clothes) and allow agitation to begin, then feel her water..then begin to add the STPP by 1 teaspoon at a time, until she felt the water break. She said she felt this happen at 9 tsp (3 Tbsp) She then added her Borax and felt the water slip a bit more, and decided that that was her sweet spot.
Her conclusion for her dosage was 2 to 3 Tbsp STPP and her new found freind..Borax.
The dude with the FL machine... Well I sugested he fill a 1 gallon bucket and add STPP by Tsp until he felt water break. Then multiply according to how much water the machine uses. Since I'm unfamiliar with FL machines my guess was about 6 gallons? And guessed that 1 Tbsp would suffice?
Whats funny to me, is that while she was willing to try the STPP, she had to also try the water test to see if she felt comfortable with my dosage recommendation..Which for her, ended up being the 3 TBLS.
I don't use STPP that often so I gave her about 2 lbs of the stuff, so she is set for a little while.

 

[stan]

Her

Conclusion now is that she loves Borax, but can't live without STPP.
She was very happy with Borax and her liquid detergent, as it boosted her cleaning and odor removal.
With the water spiked with Borax and STPP.. she said her laundry coming out if the dryer smelling like it's been dried outside.
Now that she's also been introduced to pure sodium percarbonate, she even happier.
I suggested that for her white loads that she drop the Borax, and use STPP her liquid and 2 Tbls of her oxygen bleach. Pre soak 30mn then move on to Reguler cycle. She's a happy camper.
She then presented a set of sheets that she'd had a while (they been laundered in just liquid detergent) and they were dingy with set in body oil.
I handed her a container with pure TSP. I suggested she do a pre soak with hot water and 2 Tbls of the TSP for 15 min
( her machine dose a 4 min agitation when set on presoak)
Then dump out, refill using 1 Tbls of her STPP and 1 Tbls of her oxygen bleach, 2 Tbls of her liquid detergent, Reguler cycle on warm, with the second rinse option turn on.
Again she's very happy with results. She even texted me pics of the water during the presoak to show the TSP breaking loose the nastiness (is that a word)
I cautioned her that the TSP was only for occasional use.
Staying with her Borax STPP should prevent that from happening again.
Guess I've converted someone! Or made her dangerous! LOL

 

[iowabear]

Interesting. I do wonder if their problems could be more easily solved by using top-shelf detergents and the right water temperatures and cycle times.

 

I use Tide HE powder with bleach in my FL Neptune - hot for whites, warm for everything else, and I usually select a cycle that gives a 25 minute wash period.  Except for liquid bleach for white towel loads I've never used any additives.

 

Barring the occasional salad dressing/oil stain, everything comes out as clean as I could hope for.

 

I would think that with the effectiveness of modern detergents there would be a smaller market for additives in general.  But as I don't buy them I really don't pay attention.

 

 

 

[launderess]

Have found with TOL detergents

Such as Persil and Tide really don't need to add STPP; so reserve phosphates for when using any of the soaps in my stash such as those boxes of Persil.

What one does add (depending upon what is being washed) is oxygen bleaches (if not included already with detergent), and or borax (to help with whiffy laundry).