Robert, i am looking forward to see how this turns out, i don't see how you can make that "thing" more fabulous than the SuperUnimatic. Robert all this flap about bearing failure and such. Are the bearings in these newfangled F/L's, as beefy as those in the vintage Westy or your whirlpool combo? Im disappointed that your 50 year old F/L designs are in good shape, and these New machines have bearing failure, in such a short time. well good luck with your project and be careful, that bustin loose and chewing though the outer drum even though it is plastic is very scary. arthur
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Robert this is really going to be exciting!!! Thanks for taking the time to share this adventure with all of us. One has to wonder if this experience won't turn you into a "front-loading washer fan"!!!! It's fun looking at the pictures you have posted as I reconize many of the parts in the pictures after having had so many problems with my Sears HEt4 washer.
toggleswitch2
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 23, 2008
- Messages
- 5,000
Spank me? I DARE YOU !
oh Terry you hush now! *LOL* Even through we all know it is bound to happen eventually, let's play along and agree with Robert as he says "NEVER, NEVER, NEVER!"
(ducks and runs.)
oh Terry you hush now! *LOL* Even through we all know it is bound to happen eventually, let's play along and agree with Robert as he says "NEVER, NEVER, NEVER!"
(ducks and runs.)
Mould
Hi Robert, no moldy bits here, just the build up of black stuff sometimes in the dispenser, but thats related to fabric softener!!!
So this machine, has just two suspension strutts?? and two concrete blocks top & bottom for stability??
Am looking forward to seeing just what water level & usage these machines can operate operate at efficiently!!
Hi Terry, what have you had wrong with yours etc??
Cheers, Mike
Hi Robert, no moldy bits here, just the build up of black stuff sometimes in the dispenser, but thats related to fabric softener!!!
So this machine, has just two suspension strutts?? and two concrete blocks top & bottom for stability??
Am looking forward to seeing just what water level & usage these machines can operate operate at efficiently!!
Hi Terry, what have you had wrong with yours etc??
Cheers, Mike
vivalalavatrice
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2005
- Messages
- 1,031
Vai Robert!!!
Sei tutti noi...
I'm really close to you, as I just finished my Super just this last fall.
I'm really impatient to see the videos!!!
GREAT! This challenge sounds me like Josephine Cochraine said "if nobody's going to invent it... well, I'll do by myself!"
Bye
And keep us up-to-dated!!
Diomede
Sei tutti noi...
I'm really close to you, as I just finished my Super just this last fall.
I'm really impatient to see the videos!!!
GREAT! This challenge sounds me like Josephine Cochraine said "if nobody's going to invent it... well, I'll do by myself!"
Bye
And keep us up-to-dated!!
Diomede
Not too surprising on the sludge. Filthy clothes, detergent ignorance and cold water will bring about this result in any machine, top or front loading. How many have ever raised the top of a GE Filter-Flo and found a similar coating of goo? A Whirlpool/Kenmore belt or direct-drive can get just as gross. Families with small children and/or babies generate mountains of some of the most disgusting laundry - turning their washing machines into sewage processing units. The tendency for people to not prep or pre-treat their laundry, stains and special items in any way also contribute a fair share of trouble to the plumbing of appliances. Just wait until they take the phosphates out of dishwasher detergents, we'll see sludge like this in those machines too.
Hopefully, you'll be able to design a set of programs to combat these forces!
Hopefully, you'll be able to design a set of programs to combat these forces!
Before ya know it, there will be a "Clean Dishwasher&qu
I can't wait to see what you do with this machine Robert!!! You'll have to make it do the classic Price Is Right buzzing sound each time it fails to balance and has to try again!! I think another trip to Minneapolis will be in order soon!!!
I can't wait to see what you do with this machine Robert!!! You'll have to make it do the classic Price Is Right buzzing sound each time it fails to balance and has to try again!! I think another trip to Minneapolis will be in order soon!!!
Clean Dishwasher Cycle
LOL!
Don't forget the Cold-Water Cascade for "Virtually Clean Dishes"
LOL!
Don't forget the Cold-Water Cascade for "Virtually Clean Dishes"
redcarpetdrew
Well-known member
Thank you Gansky for beating me to it. This has long been my annoyance with the Neptune owners. Granted, the machines had their issues BUT alot of those mold, mildew and smell issues were because of user AND saleperson indifference and/or stupidity. They bought a high end, high performance washer and treated it like the old $199.00 beater they just got rid of. Trying to educate that (set in her ways) little old lady about how to use it and what kind of soap to use is like knocking down the great wall with your skull but hurts worse. Worse when the salesperson (who knows diddle about the product) tells them to use the wrong detergent, etc!
The newer Whirlpool units actually HAVE a clean cycle and instructions on how to use it, recommending bleach only. It helps! See below picture.
"The seal is a lip seal". It looks exactly like the lip seal on the MAH style Neptunes. The end result looks just like a failed Neptune tub bearing/seal too.
Robert, in one of your pictures I can see just a piece of a Maytag wringer but with a clear tub! Could you post a pic or two of it as I've never seen a clear tub before? PLEASE???
RCD
The newer Whirlpool units actually HAVE a clean cycle and instructions on how to use it, recommending bleach only. It helps! See below picture.
"The seal is a lip seal". It looks exactly like the lip seal on the MAH style Neptunes. The end result looks just like a failed Neptune tub bearing/seal too.
Robert, in one of your pictures I can see just a piece of a Maytag wringer but with a clear tub! Could you post a pic or two of it as I've never seen a clear tub before? PLEASE???
RCD
redcarpetdrew
Well-known member
Here's the Maytag badged unit. Same machine but for some reason, they say "with Affresh" on this one. This has been a very popular color with the customers.
RCD
RCD
I have to agree with Andrew when he said that most of the problems that people experienced with the front loaders were user caused. I have been using a front loading washer now for 23 years. 20 with the White Westinghouse spacemate and now 3 years with the Sears HEt4. I have never once in all those years had a mold or "smell" problem. I am sure that many of these problems are caused by owners that use hot water washers rarely or never and that they use way to much liquid fabric softener in each and every load.
Mold/Smell
With the Frigidaire I was using for a while, I NEVER had a mold or smell problem....until one day.
I ALWAYS left the door open on it after a load to let it dry out. One weekend I forgot, and shut the door. Came back and it smelled like musty old mold. I ran some bleach through it on hot water and took care of the problem
My own personal thoughts with the mold is that people just don't leave the machine open to let it dry out. Those front loaders are pretty well sealed up when they're closed, so the water has no place to really evaporate to. I also tend to wipe out the door seal to get rid of the water that used to stand in there. Moisture creates a moist, humid environment which bacteria and mold THRIVE on...
Just my own $.02...
With the Frigidaire I was using for a while, I NEVER had a mold or smell problem....until one day.
I ALWAYS left the door open on it after a load to let it dry out. One weekend I forgot, and shut the door. Came back and it smelled like musty old mold. I ran some bleach through it on hot water and took care of the problem
My own personal thoughts with the mold is that people just don't leave the machine open to let it dry out. Those front loaders are pretty well sealed up when they're closed, so the water has no place to really evaporate to. I also tend to wipe out the door seal to get rid of the water that used to stand in there. Moisture creates a moist, humid environment which bacteria and mold THRIVE on...
Just my own $.02...
ronhic
Well-known member
I agree with ttuee2006
I have never used bleach in a washing machine in my life...for any reason at all....
I do the following and have NEVER had a problem...
- grab 2 old face washers
- wipe out the boot with one;
- wring it out and leave to dry; and
- place the other folded in 2 or 3 over top of door which I just push to...
This leaves a gap about 2-3" all the way around the door
Problem solved
I have never used bleach in a washing machine in my life...for any reason at all....
I do the following and have NEVER had a problem...
- grab 2 old face washers
- wipe out the boot with one;
- wring it out and leave to dry; and
- place the other folded in 2 or 3 over top of door which I just push to...
This leaves a gap about 2-3" all the way around the door
Problem solved
Robert
I can help. In this configuration there is information flowing back and forth from the motor to the Control board, it's not just voltages going one way.
That 'T" symbol is an electronic tachometer which tells the MCB what speed the motor is turning at. So when the MCB calls for 2000 RPM spin it keeps varying the field coils electrically until the tach matches 2000 RPM's.
The Vcc will be the minimum operating voltage ( which can be anywhere from a volt to 8 volts DC) that the MCB needs to operate just like the power supply in your computer. It will also act as a reference voltage so the MCB can measure other voltages and compare.
The dotted box on the right is most likely the input board/cycle board where the user selects 2000 RPM spin etc. That board will also house the rectifier that will protect and convert 120V AC into millivolt DC to run the MCB.
The settings from the Cycle board are turned into control voltages which tell the processor on the MCB what is expected of it. Say at 5 volts dc you run the motor back and forth for wash at 6 volts you put it into spin etc.
So the MCB is constantly monitoring the Cycle Board and the Motor and the little onboard computer on the MCB is telling the motor what to do.
You should also know these Duets have a flaw in the door switch monitor circuit. Those pink wires flowing from the door to the board at the upper back. Due to vibretion the wires tend to loosen the metal contacts on the board and the board being cheaply made stops working unless you jiggle the wires to get contact reestablished on the ciruit board. I have repaired this problem on vintage Receiver circuit boards but I have been told that these newer boards are made with such thin cheap copper traces that they can't be repaired and can only be replaced. So hold onto both boards from the machines and if one appears bad send it to me and I can try to resolder the traces on it.
GOOD ON YOU EDDY , We always knew he was a closet front loader type! There is hope for everybody else!
jet
I can help. In this configuration there is information flowing back and forth from the motor to the Control board, it's not just voltages going one way.
That 'T" symbol is an electronic tachometer which tells the MCB what speed the motor is turning at. So when the MCB calls for 2000 RPM spin it keeps varying the field coils electrically until the tach matches 2000 RPM's.
The Vcc will be the minimum operating voltage ( which can be anywhere from a volt to 8 volts DC) that the MCB needs to operate just like the power supply in your computer. It will also act as a reference voltage so the MCB can measure other voltages and compare.
The dotted box on the right is most likely the input board/cycle board where the user selects 2000 RPM spin etc. That board will also house the rectifier that will protect and convert 120V AC into millivolt DC to run the MCB.
The settings from the Cycle board are turned into control voltages which tell the processor on the MCB what is expected of it. Say at 5 volts dc you run the motor back and forth for wash at 6 volts you put it into spin etc.
So the MCB is constantly monitoring the Cycle Board and the Motor and the little onboard computer on the MCB is telling the motor what to do.
You should also know these Duets have a flaw in the door switch monitor circuit. Those pink wires flowing from the door to the board at the upper back. Due to vibretion the wires tend to loosen the metal contacts on the board and the board being cheaply made stops working unless you jiggle the wires to get contact reestablished on the ciruit board. I have repaired this problem on vintage Receiver circuit boards but I have been told that these newer boards are made with such thin cheap copper traces that they can't be repaired and can only be replaced. So hold onto both boards from the machines and if one appears bad send it to me and I can try to resolder the traces on it.
GOOD ON YOU EDDY , We always knew he was a closet front loader type! There is hope for everybody else!
jet
sudsmaster
Well-known member
Neptune 7500
I've had a Neptune 7500 (solid door) for about eight years now, and have NEVER had a problem with mold or odor with it.
I never leave the door open to "air out", either. And I've never run chlorine bleach in it, either.
However I run at least one hot (130F boosted) wash a week in it. I also use STPP in most loads (except when I use liquid detergent).
The 7500 has different control logic that sends it into an accelerated tumble pattern during the last rinse. This helps to dislodge any debris that collected at the top of the tub and maybe also around the boot.
Whatever it is, it works.
The washer was serviced at the three year mark. Along with the motor, motor controller, and main board, the "spider" that the belt rides on was replaced (it had cracked). At the time the serviceman said the seals and bearings were in fine shape. I think he did replace the seal just as SOP whenever a tub is pulled. And of course the tub/boot were squeaky clean.
I've had a Neptune 7500 (solid door) for about eight years now, and have NEVER had a problem with mold or odor with it.
I never leave the door open to "air out", either. And I've never run chlorine bleach in it, either.
However I run at least one hot (130F boosted) wash a week in it. I also use STPP in most loads (except when I use liquid detergent).
The 7500 has different control logic that sends it into an accelerated tumble pattern during the last rinse. This helps to dislodge any debris that collected at the top of the tub and maybe also around the boot.
Whatever it is, it works.
The washer was serviced at the three year mark. Along with the motor, motor controller, and main board, the "spider" that the belt rides on was replaced (it had cracked). At the time the serviceman said the seals and bearings were in fine shape. I think he did replace the seal just as SOP whenever a tub is pulled. And of course the tub/boot were squeaky clean.
redcarpetdrew
Well-known member
Rich, your MAH7500 also has a vented door to help the washer breathe with the door closed. The older MAH3000/4000 didn't come with that until series 53 or if it was updated with the PHA rework kit.
RCD
RCD
wringer_clean
Well-known member
Leaving the washer door ajar when finished with using the machine is critical with front loaders.
Across the big pond, people just know to leave the door open slightly when not in use.
And Robert, as you modify your Duet we'll be looking for "the light show" ... the one thing missing from the stock Duet washer is lighting for the tub..
Also, it has very weak water drama ... spray jets would be very nice, especially if they are backlit.
You've always raised the bar so know our expectation are rather high.
We'll be watching and looking for grand results.
More to come ....
Pat
Across the big pond, people just know to leave the door open slightly when not in use.
And Robert, as you modify your Duet we'll be looking for "the light show" ... the one thing missing from the stock Duet washer is lighting for the tub..
Also, it has very weak water drama ... spray jets would be very nice, especially if they are backlit.
You've always raised the bar so know our expectation are rather high.
We'll be watching and looking for grand results.
More to come ....
Pat
Thanks Jon, great information. You're right about the VCC line supplying power to the Motor Controller Board. I took some multimeter readings tonight and my findings are slightly different as follows:
The VCC line:
It seems that 120 volts AC is applied to this line, the frequency changes somewhat but no where near as much as the on the IN/OUT line. The frequency is stable at 60hz when the motor is not running.
The IN/OUT line:
This also appears to be running AC current, but here are my readings:
During wash tumble: 0.68 volts/165 hz
During pause between reversing the tub direction: 0.44 volts/60hz
Medium Spin speed: 1.5 volts/195 hz
High Spin speed: 1.9 volts/283 hz
Go figure, lol.
I'm liking Ben's idea of using a external VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) to drive the motor, this will be easier to control via either a PC or Microcontroller chip. I'm also thinking its time to learn how to program a microcontroller chip as opposed to using a pc to run the machine.
The VCC line:
It seems that 120 volts AC is applied to this line, the frequency changes somewhat but no where near as much as the on the IN/OUT line. The frequency is stable at 60hz when the motor is not running.
The IN/OUT line:
This also appears to be running AC current, but here are my readings:
During wash tumble: 0.68 volts/165 hz
During pause between reversing the tub direction: 0.44 volts/60hz
Medium Spin speed: 1.5 volts/195 hz
High Spin speed: 1.9 volts/283 hz
Go figure, lol.
I'm liking Ben's idea of using a external VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) to drive the motor, this will be easier to control via either a PC or Microcontroller chip. I'm also thinking its time to learn how to program a microcontroller chip as opposed to using a pc to run the machine.
Yes I have been
reading up on microchip controllers for a few years now, I have a programming board. The book I was using is called "PIC Microcontrollers Project Book" by John Iovine. You progam the chips using BASIC which I already know. He has a shopping list with a small breadboard, BASIC compiler you load onto your computer and through the compiler and breadboard you program the chips.
You may find you have another more advacned computer language you know that will let you try another chip architecture? Let me know.
The problem I find is there are so many types of microchips on the market and there are several different languages I counldn't decide which would be best for a washer. I wanted to run the motor AND take out the timer and create a wash program and store that on the microcontroller.
It looks like your in/out line is the signal line for triggering each function.
These chips & boards are getting more robust I am surprised that the board can take a 120V directly so there must be a converter on the board itself these days.
MY NEPTUNE steps down the voltage for the controller on the machine control board in the backsplash. Then the micro-controller handles the 120V 10 amp current to the motor via the MCB and relays like you put into the SuperUnimatic machine.
Your DUET sounds more compact than the 10 year old Neptune.
reading up on microchip controllers for a few years now, I have a programming board. The book I was using is called "PIC Microcontrollers Project Book" by John Iovine. You progam the chips using BASIC which I already know. He has a shopping list with a small breadboard, BASIC compiler you load onto your computer and through the compiler and breadboard you program the chips.
You may find you have another more advacned computer language you know that will let you try another chip architecture? Let me know.
The problem I find is there are so many types of microchips on the market and there are several different languages I counldn't decide which would be best for a washer. I wanted to run the motor AND take out the timer and create a wash program and store that on the microcontroller.
It looks like your in/out line is the signal line for triggering each function.
These chips & boards are getting more robust I am surprised that the board can take a 120V directly so there must be a converter on the board itself these days.
MY NEPTUNE steps down the voltage for the controller on the machine control board in the backsplash. Then the micro-controller handles the 120V 10 amp current to the motor via the MCB and relays like you put into the SuperUnimatic machine.
Your DUET sounds more compact than the 10 year old Neptune.
Jon, yes I just picked up the book you were using the other day and I also ordered the book that Lee is using "PIC in practice by D W Smith". Have you seen Lee and Diomede's microcontroller washer timer projects in this thread linked below? I was quite impressed with both of them and now I want to learn this as well. These books are well written and it seems easy enough to learn. The computer programming and interfacing part will be easy for me, I'll just have to learn breadboarding which can't be all that difficult.
http://www.automaticwasher.org/TD/THREADS/MODERN/20610x19.htm
http://www.automaticwasher.org/TD/THREADS/MODERN/20610x19.htm
I just replaced the water valve in my Duet ($43 damn it!) and so while I was poking around in the machine, I checked the door boot (inside) and all the plumbing underneath. Other than a rusty nail/tack that made it's way to the pump protector and a small string of lint in the one of the holes, there was nothing but clean, clear water in mine. I even pushed a bottle brush up into the tub-to-pump hose and found no slime, sludge or other nasties. I removed the pump and it was also very clean, the outlet drain hose was fine as well.
I always leave the door ajar when done using the machine and am careful about sorting, loading and using only HE detergents in mine. It's the rare load that gets washed in cold water - generally use hot or warm and I do run the machine with bleach now and then with whites. I've never used any washer cleaning product or made a specific cycle and chemical potion to "clean" the washer.
I always leave the door ajar when done using the machine and am careful about sorting, loading and using only HE detergents in mine. It's the rare load that gets washed in cold water - generally use hot or warm and I do run the machine with bleach now and then with whites. I've never used any washer cleaning product or made a specific cycle and chemical potion to "clean" the washer.
This might be a good time to bring this up. Three weeks ago I walked through my laundry area in bare feet as we usually are down here in Florida and thought damn, why are my feet wet. I didn't dream there could be a problem with my machine as I hadn't used it in six days. My first thought was that I must have a leaky hose. I had gotten down to check out how wet the rug was and believe me it was wet..As I was getting up I noticed that a very small trickle of water was running out of my HE4t washer. I never close the door tightly either when I am done washing. I looked inside and the tub was full of water up to the top of the boot and running over. Now this is more water than has ever been in this machine! I closed the door and hit drain and spin. Called Sears and they came out two days later. Problem, bad water valve!! Thank heavens I bought a five year service contract...Service call $169.00 water valve, $62.00 I don't think I will ever walk past this machine again without checking inside to make sure it isn't leaking again. For sure will never leave the house for more than a day without turning off the water to the machine. This is the fourth major part that has been replaced on the machine in less than a year. I guess if it breaks again they are suppose to replace the machine. So just a word of warning, turn those faucets off if you are going to be gone. Oh yes, the machine will be three years old Aug. 1st.
Robert
Lees' board is what I was trying to achieve they are such cool projects! I didn't know about them thank you! I will order that book too!
We could digitize all the vintage cycles of each machine so that when the physical timers finally fail for the last time we could still run all these machines as original. And we could build any kind of new machine with all the knowledge we have aquired working on all these machines over the years. That experience has to be way ahead of any new engineer entering the field today!
Mahalo,Jon
Lees' board is what I was trying to achieve they are such cool projects! I didn't know about them thank you! I will order that book too!
We could digitize all the vintage cycles of each machine so that when the physical timers finally fail for the last time we could still run all these machines as original. And we could build any kind of new machine with all the knowledge we have aquired working on all these machines over the years. That experience has to be way ahead of any new engineer entering the field today!
Mahalo,Jon
sudsmaster
Well-known member
Suggestion box
All the electronic fiddling is fine... but...
How about rigging up a "Halo of LED's" to light up the interior?
And once that is done, how about inserting a color video camera (ala endoscope) connected to a small LED flat panel display on the console, with an internet connection, so that one can view the wash process remotely?
All the electronic fiddling is fine... but...
How about rigging up a "Halo of LED's" to light up the interior?
And once that is done, how about inserting a color video camera (ala endoscope) connected to a small LED flat panel display on the console, with an internet connection, so that one can view the wash process remotely?
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