surgilator and spiralator

[rickr]

Robert,can you tell me what changes were made to the WP/KM from the 1950's to the 1960's to prevent the suds lock problems?
I did add the nylon drain deflector to the 56WP during the rebuild,however that is the only changes I could see from the 56WP to the 65 KM.( I used the tub from a 61 KM during the rebuild to add the lint filter)

Very witty Peter. Too bad of all the machines you listed,only Speed Queen is still in business.

 

[frigilux]

While you're waiting for Robert's reply (that is, someone who actually knows what they're talking about) I think KM/SP began using 1/2- instead of 1/3-horsepower motors at some point in the 1960's. Whether that made a difference, I'm not sure.

Our 1960 KM suds-locked all the time, especially (as Robert noted) with towel loads. As a kid, I would wait for the first spin to start, let it spin just a few seconds, then I'd lift the lid and let the excess water drain; I'd close the lid and away it'd go. It just couldn't get rid of the spun-out sudsy water fast enough to prevent suds lock on its own.

 

[frigilux]

Swirlpool? Make that KM/WP in the above post.

 

[mickeyd]

love to know

Now that we're back to agitator power, I've always wondered about the Philco, since I've never seen one "in person." Can the Philco agitator accept and move more clothes than the classic three ring Frigidaire agitator.

thanks

 

[gyrafoam]

I remember those Philco's could sure roll those clothes over but don't recall how they would handle an oversized or bulky load.

IMO they would not be able to move things around like a Frigidaire no matter which pulsator was used.

Robert should know---or Jimmy------?

 

[rickr]

Yes Frigilux,I'll just wait for someone that knows what they are talking about. Who do you think restored my machines? And why would I say that my 1950's WP suds locks on towels,and the 1960's Kenmore does not? Do you really think I would lie about that? What for?Would you like to come to Indiana with some dirty towels, and see for yourself?
There are people here that know me personally,and they would tell you that I do not deceive anyone. Someone asked a question on this thread,and I simply did my best to answer it,and included the photos for fun.

 

[gyrafoam]

Robert--------

Just to stir the pot---------we had a neighbor who choked her Unimatic to death with Wisk when it first came out! I remember MANY Frigidaires back in the day choking on suds.

As I said before,IMO, I think people back in the day thought you had to have a suds cake a foot thick on top to have good cleaning so they tended to put too much detergent in. Also, I can't speak for what happens chemically as those vintage detergents age on the shelf, but I can speak about how high sudsing most of them were. Tide, Cheer, Duz, Super Suds, Wisk, and good old Ivory Snow soap flakes were really bad. HOWEVER here in Atlanta the water is naturally a bit on the soft side and that might have something to do with all the sudsing I remember.

I remember trying to dose Ivory Snow. It was o.k. with fabrics that did not hold on to water, but with heavy fabrics-----suds-lock all the time----and I remember the directions on the box calling for a "layer of suds".

So ANYWAY, thats my story and I'm sticking to it thhhhhhhhhhhht.

 

[Unimatic1140]

Hi Rick, I'm not quite sure exactly what changed, I'm only going by my observations between what I've seen between the 1950's models and the 1960's/70's models. I suspect the drain trap might have something to do with it.

Sorry Steve I have five Unimatics hooked up working like new, which get used weekly, I have very soft water as well and have had HUGE suds cakes rising up to the top of the open lid, without ever as much as a blink, so how exactly do we explain this...

http://68.89.57.239/VID/TEMP/WCI-58-Wash-Spin-Off.WMV

 

[peterh770]

Whatever the problem with Kenmore was, the Maytag's and Frigidaire 1-18's that I've owned had the same problem! Yes, even my Miele has a problem (with Persil, no less).

Towels = suds lock.

As far as suds lock in a solid tub, it can happen. Someone who had a large capacity SQ solid tub used to get suds lock in his machine. Now, that Steve has seen it and Rober hasn't is not the issue: that it CAN happen has to be admitted. Conditions were right that Steve has seen it and conditions are right that Robert hasn't seen it. But the possibility remains..

 

[frigilux]

rickr--- I'm not sure what happened in translation, but I was definitely not trying to call you a liar or question your knowledge about washers! I've had both a '59 and a '60 KM which had 1/3-horsepower motors and they both suds-locked quite often.

Neighbors who had a KM from later in the 1960's didn't have as much of a suds lock issue, and I think their machine had a 1/2-HP motor. I was just speculating as to whether the larger motor had helped improve the problem, that's all.

Sorry for any confusion--- certainly no insult was intended!

 

[Unimatic1140]

Peter, lets be careful with words here. I never said you can't suds lock a solid basket washer, because I have suds locked at least once my Speed Queen, Hotpoint, Philco and Easy. I was refering only to Unimatic washers only. I'm certainly not saying that Steve didn't actually see these Unimatics with their motor protectors popped, because I absolutely believe that he did. What I am saying is I'm trying to figure the root cause, because no matter how hard I try I cannot reproduce those results with my Unimatics.

 

[gansky1]

I haven't experienced a suds-lock in ages, even in the 51 Kenmore (with surgilator) but this machine doesn't have a recirculating filter of any kind. When I was using the 63 Kenmore washer (with self-cleaning glass bead filter) it locked up constantly. I wondered after comparing the two machines if it had something to do with the aeration of the detergent & water through the wash cycle as it was constantly pumped through the filter. The wash water seems to be much more "foamy" than without a filter, as if a lot of air is being whipped into the mix. Of course the roto-swirl agitator is also sucking air into the wash-water as well which might give it more fuel for foam...

I used to have suds problems with the large capacity Speed Queens I've had, part of the problem there may have been the size of the outer tub and the spin-tub whipping up more suds and slowing the spin. As of yet, I've never suds-locked a unimatic or the other solid tub machines I have, I guess I haven't tried hard enough!

 

[lightedcontrols]

OK Gansky....

Add MORE detergent! Your clothes WON'T come clean without a good layer of suds!....Bob Wirth confirms it, and so does my Mom. So I'm convinced! I can tell you from my experience that I've suds locked everything I own.......OK....Steve....not a WORD!!!LOL Mark

 

[peterh770]

Might it be because with the neutral drain the tub can take of to spin and accellerate quicker than a spin drain machine, thus sucking more air through the load to create a suds lock condition, as opposed to a solid tub that just flattens the load against the tub wall?

 

[gansky1]

Could be, Peter, but I've had suds-locks in a 1-18 (spin drain) - which also can really aerate the water a lot to make mounds of foam. The 1-18 has a great spray rinse that helps to knock it down quickly though so it's not as severe as I've had in some WP/KM's.

I'll bet it's just the right combination of ingredients, in any machine, that causes the suds-lock condition. Perhaps if we had a crystal ball dryer like that concept Hamilton, it could tell us!

 

[spinout]

Suds lock was a rare occasion out here...

...Mom's '64 LK and Granny's '68 KM just didn't have suds lock problems, regardless of load type or the amount of suds. One possibility is that the water out here is hard--16 grains/gal--but even after my mom bought a water softener and switched to soap, suds lock just wasn't a problem.

I've semi-suds locked my Hotpoint on a couple of occasions, but that was with a full inner tub of water, a very small load and a lot of detergent. What seems to happen is that the inner tub will drain so quickly that the outer tub can get "overloaded" and the sediment tub will whip up a tidal wave in the cabinet. It doesn't last more than the 20 to 30 seconds it takes to get most of the water pumped out.

BTW, the 3 speed KM/WP and LK's (belt driven) used 3/4 hp motors (that is, on high speed, since they are constant torque) that were necessary to get the requisite 1/3 hp on the extra slow speed.

 

[DADoES]

1962 Whirlpool = FREQUENT suds-lock. Standard capacity, brush filter.

1976 Whirlpool = RARELY suds-lock. 18# capacity, self-clean filter.

 

[gyrafoam]

Oh lawdddd-------

I didn't mean to stir the damn pot this much!

I think it would be awfully hard to duplicate the exact conditions from the old days because:

The water comes from a different source/s(?).
The water is treated with (different) chemicals.
The formulaes of the detergents have changed MANY times since then. Tide and Cheer especially!
Even when using vintage detergents who knows how stable those chemicals are and how they might have changed while sitting on the shelves all these years. I can't answer that. I just think it would be hard to duplicate what I experienced fourty something years ago. (Toggle don't go there!).

So anyway, I just throw this out for discussion. No hard feelings towards Robert were intended----we just agree to dissagree!

 

[Unimatic1140]

Yes I couldn't agree more Steve it would be awfully hard to duplicate the exact conditions from the old days, certainly no hard feelings going either way.

 

[rickr]

A suds lock on a solid tub machine seems hard to imagine,but never thought a Filter-Flo with a perforated tub would suds lock with the huge outer tub they have either....But I've done it to mine a few times.

Very sorry Eugene.I must have read something in your post that was not really there.

One detergent that would be capable of suds-locking any machine,even a Unimatic,would be TIDE With CONCRETE. Do they have that in your stores yet? liquid only,of course. LOL!