Tale of Two Mieles, revisited

[sudsmaster]

OK, I got a Miele W1065 washer last summer, and was a bit disappointed that it seemed to have some issues. Lots of grunge to clean out, residual suds, and a nasty kind of grinding noise at the start of spin cycles (intermittant, though). I call this one Miele #1. Once the spin cycle gets going, the sound sort of goes away.

Recently I procured another W1065 with a faulty main relay. I'll call this one Miele #2. I fixed the relay and discovered that #2 didn't make nasty noises of Miele #1. Ok, maybe a very brief kind of buzz grind, but not the prolonged sound #1 makes.

What I'm puzzling over is just what the noise is. After hearing what a defective relay can sound like (faint to loud buzzing, depending on defect), I'm sort of leaning to the idea that there's a bad relay in the spin portion of the motor circuit. I'm told there are no brushes in the Miele motor, so I guess we can rule that out.

More troubleshooting is probably in order to try to narrow down the possibilities. For a time today I thought maybe the sound was from the pump, but since it doesn't make the sound until the spin portion of the program starts up, I think we can rule out the pump at this time.

Anybody have any ideas (that is, besides just leaving that poor Miele alone)?

 

[foraloysius]

I'm told there are no brushes in the Miele motor, so I g

Have you checked that yourself? My somewhat newer Miele has a motor with brushes so it wouldn't surprise me if yours had them too.

 

[launderess]

Oh I Don't Know

When I queried a Miele tech about spare parts for my W1070, in case one wished to start laying in a supply, the man consulted the parts list and reported the motor didn't have brushes.

The 1900 series OTHO has brush motors, at least the 1918 does because have known and read of persons having to have them replaced due to wear.

L.

 

[foraloysius]

It is possible that they don't have them but you never know with Miele. They aren't always very open about what series have them and what series don't.

 

[sudsmaster]

Next time I have Miele #1 open, I'll take a look for brushes.

But I would have thought that if it were a brush issue, that it would make this noise all the time - tumbling and spinning. It just seems to make the noise on the last tumble or two before it goes into a spin, and then it fades away.

This is why I'm thinking it's a buzzy relay - causing even more nois as it kicks the motor into high speed spin. Finding the problem relay will be tricky, because it will mean running the machine with the front panel open, so I'll have to select the 1/2 load option so the water doesn't flow out of the door, etc.

No big hurry on this, after all I have two more Mieles that run relatively quietly (the 1918 makes a faint buzzing sound with each tumble, but nothing I'm too worried about).

 

[MrX]

It's quite easy to tell which one you have.

AC motor will turn the drum almost silently, you'll just hear a the splashing of clothes and water and a slight hum.

DC (brush) motor will make a slight whine at low speed when turning i.e. "normal" washing machine noise.
At spin it will sound quite like a jet engine taking off as it reaches max RPM.
AC version doesn't produce the same whine.

 

[sudsmaster]

Yes, what I described as a "faint buzz" with the tumbling of the 1918 may be the "brush whine" you speak of. It's not bad, and I'd put it in the main house but first I need to find the loud rattle that accompanies the pump when it reaches the end of the pumping. It's probably the drip tray, but not sure. As mentioned before, the 1918 has brushes so it makes sense.

One W1065 runs more or less silently - no whine during tumbling - so I'm guessing it has no brushes. The other one is mostly silent except for the buzz grind as it nears spin time. So probably no brushes there, either, just some other problem.

 

[timon90]

It could maybe be a capacitor that are beeing "charged" up right before the spin, to get the big "kick" to start the spin. I know some machines here that does that. I have a Elto at home that have a buzzing sound right before the spin starts. But some machines buzzes more than other.

 

[sudsmaster]

Timon,

Thanks for that info. There is a huge capacitor at the front bottom of the machine, near the motor. I wondered what it was for; it's probably for exactly what you said. The next time I have the machine open I'll try to run a 1/2 load cycle and rapid to the last rinse/spin area to see if I can detect (by careful touch) if it's the capacitor that is giving out the noise.

 

[launderess]

While doing the housework today, do need to get to some laundry. Will try and remember to listen for any sounds as the machine goes between graduated and final spins.

L.

 

[brisnat81]

Most Miele's Still have brush motors

My mother has a brand new one, bought in September last year. Its the BOL model and has a brush motor. You can hear a slight whirring during wash, (One way is louder than the other) and the spin is quiet. It is only the top 2 or 3 models that have the brushless motor.

We have the TOL W2888 from the last series. During wash, all you can hear is water. During the spin it is that quiet, you can hear all of the rattles and squeaks in the cabinet, and the shock absorbers squelching around.

We had a MOL W2515 from the last series that now lives with Michaels mother. A slight whirring during the tumble and a quiet spin.

On the old machines, (Pre 1987) or so, there are actually two motors attached to a common drive shaft. The Induction motor on one end is for spin (Thus why the spin is so quiet) and the brush motor on the other end is for tumble.

If you remove the grey plastic cover from the motor you'll see the brushes underneath. I've attached a picture of the motor that was in pretty much all Miele's up until the late 80's. The cover is off and you can see one of the brushes.

 

[sudsmaster]

Thanks, Brisnat,

I did a load of bath towels in Miele #2 today (partly because I wanted to compare times with the 1918), and detected a very mild version of the noise that I'm hearing with Miele #1 during the tumbling just before spinning.

I think the W1065 was introduced in 1988, probably after Miele changed its dual motor format. It sure looks like just one motor in there, but one must lie on the floor to get a good look at it, it's that low down in the machine.

 

[brisnat81]

It'll look like 1

If you have a look underneath, you will only see 1 motor. If its long and black, with a grey cap on one end, then its the same as the one I've pictured. It is two motors built as one unit.

If it looks like a grey plastic box, with foam all over it, then it is the later motor.

You wont see two seperate motors under there.

 

[panthera]

Miele

Is infamous for making changes within a series, some of them quite substantial. It is useless to pay attention to anything but the actual parts and electronics present in your washer.
Two cases in point.
I have a G646. It is, depending on which country you live in, either a 230V single phase only or a convertible 3phase or (horrors, let's not go *there* again) what Miele calls two-phase but the anal-retentives call split-phase.
It does and it does not have an extra starting capacitor.
It does and does not permit IR updating...
And so on and on and on.
Twenty some years ago, I had to have my top-loading Miele repaired. The service department of the appliance store I used to work at came out...and found not two but four shock absorbers. Turns out Miele had used them in some units ...their first laser positioning was just not accurate enough...but no listing of this configuration for that model, nor the modified pump housing to accommodate it...
I would never touch a running capacitor. Not just because of shock risk, but if it is marginal or there is something loose, that slight touch might just push it over the edge.
There are all sorts of things which could be causing the noises you are hearing; the pump may have something in the impeller housing which got past the filters or a bearing may be fixing to go...or the valve which prevents water from backing up into the machine from the drains...I've seen all of those cases bring machines into the shop.
Miele has used various motors and various configurations over time. I can't for the life of me think why your model can not, under any circumstances, have brushes - nor why it absolutely must.
A very real possibility is that the wiring for your voltage was not done right, I'd check that. These machines will tolerate a lot of abuse and are over-dimensioned where it counts.
While you are digging around, try to note the T-numbers of the major parts involved. That is the only way for Miele to track things down without an expensive service visit - and if your machine has been modified, you might end up ordering a "right" part that turns out, in this case, to be wrong.

 

[sudsmaster]

"what Miele calls two-phase but the anal-retentives cal

Actually the only anal retentives I know insist on pointing out the multiple names for a single system even though nobody asked ;-).

And since you brought it up, neither of the names you used is really correct; the most appropriate terminology for American 220 volt single phase power is "3-wire, single-phase, mid-point neutral".

Around here all you have to say is "American 220" and everyone will know what you mean. 'Mkay?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_phase

 

[panthera]

Sorry, Rich,

I've had my ass chewed royally several times in the last year for using the common word or phrase on this blog- so out of self-defense, I tend to gripe about that one. You're right - if somebody is gonna bitch, they're gonna bitch -so I'll let go of that one. Sorry to get on your nerves with it.
To be honest, split-phase is the term I learned when I was apprenticed to an electrician, so I guess I'll stick with it. And Miele really does or at least did label their North-American machines "two-phase".
To return to the subject, my neighbor's Miele 'groans' quite a bit when beginning to turn the drum or starts a spin. She says it has always done that. My last two Miele's were top-loaders and both quiet as can be. Still, it would be well worth checking whether the machine had been setup up for its current power supply properly.

 

[launderess]

If one is speaking of a rather "loud" sound, rather not unlike a fast drum beat, then yes it is normal. Well at least my Miele does it before each spin. Between the timer clicking, and other sounds, really haven't paid that much attention to all and sundry sounds this machine makes. All part of the wash day drama.

L.

 

[sudsmaster]

A fast drum beat isn't exactly how I'd describe the sound - I think it's more of a buzz/grind sound. But you are probably describing the same point in the cycle when the sound is made.

As I said, one of the 1065's makes this sound during the entire tumble for one or two tumbles before the washer kicks into spin. The other one does it only briefly at the start of the tumble.

 

[brisnat81]

Tilt it up and see what sort of motor is in there

Hi Rich,

If it is the older style motor, the reason the noise will stop as it goes into spin, is that the spinning is done with an induction motor, the tumbling is done with a brush motor.

As I stated above, My W423 which is about 10 years earlier, has a slight grumble/buzz during the tumble and is silent other than the whoosh and the drain pump during the spin.

Gently tilt it sideways on a 45deg angle and you should be able to see what's underneath. Take a picture or describe what you can see.