As FL's gain more and more market share in America (at least this seems to be the trend based on my observations) will TL's one day come to an end as we know them? Could they be done in by government mandates of water usage that simply could not be met by conventional top-loaders?
The era of traditional TL's(coming to and end?)
- Thread starter tuthill
- Start date
launderess
Well-known member
Top loading washing machines with central beaters (agitators), will indeed die a slow death if water and energy restrictions get anymore tighter in the United States. Top loaders need enough water to move through the laundry, too little and you are beating clothing against itself and the beater, which causes fabric damage, besides poor cleaning results. Of course the problem could be eliminated by using less than full wash loads, but setting the machine to it's highest water level, but that just prolongs wash day.
Problem right now is that washing machines like many other major appliances are more and more becoming "consumer" goods, rather than durable goods. It's rare to have a washing machine last five years, much less the ten or fifteen our grandmother's units had for a lifespan. With such short lifespans, consumers are not willing by and large, to pay huge sums of money for new washers, and that hurts R&D into keeping top loaders alive. No company is going to pour the resources into designing a top loader that can deal with energy regulations if they cannot forsee selling enough units in a period of time to recoup costs.
Problem right now is that washing machines like many other major appliances are more and more becoming "consumer" goods, rather than durable goods. It's rare to have a washing machine last five years, much less the ten or fifteen our grandmother's units had for a lifespan. With such short lifespans, consumers are not willing by and large, to pay huge sums of money for new washers, and that hurts R&D into keeping top loaders alive. No company is going to pour the resources into designing a top loader that can deal with energy regulations if they cannot forsee selling enough units in a period of time to recoup costs.
Interesting point about the "consumer" goods. It seems to me with all the technology we have today that a manufacturer could make a decent front loading machine that would last "forever." like a center dial 'tag. Cars in the 70's were never known for reliability but today we have cars that can easily log 200,000+ miles
twinniefan
Well-known member
cashbacks as well
Tuthill and Laundress,
As well as mandated water usage and energy efficiency standards,the state governments of Queensland,New South Wales and now South Australia offer consumers between $150.00 and $200.00 cash back for purchasing washing machines which have a minimum 4 star water efficiency rating and I think the same for energy.
Now the only top loading machine available here which is eligible for this rebate the the Fisher And Paykel Aquasmart models,no other top loader meets these standards so if you would like this rebate you most likely will go for a front loader,although funnily enough there is also a national standard which requires a minimum level of proper rinsing which actually some front loaders fail to meet,so what do governments want I wonder?.
Do these type of inducements exist in the U.S.A.as well?
Cheers.
Steve.
Tuthill and Laundress,
As well as mandated water usage and energy efficiency standards,the state governments of Queensland,New South Wales and now South Australia offer consumers between $150.00 and $200.00 cash back for purchasing washing machines which have a minimum 4 star water efficiency rating and I think the same for energy.
Now the only top loading machine available here which is eligible for this rebate the the Fisher And Paykel Aquasmart models,no other top loader meets these standards so if you would like this rebate you most likely will go for a front loader,although funnily enough there is also a national standard which requires a minimum level of proper rinsing which actually some front loaders fail to meet,so what do governments want I wonder?.
Do these type of inducements exist in the U.S.A.as well?
Cheers.
Steve.
launderess
Well-known member
Nope, aside from various rebates from appliance makers for products.
toggleswitch
Well-known member
Where's my check?
~The state governments......Australia offer consumers between $150.00 and $200.00 cash back for purchasing washing machines which have a minimum 4 star water efficiency rating....
There were energy company rebates of $75 to $150 for front-loading washers not long ago when I bought mine.
~The state governments......Australia offer consumers between $150.00 and $200.00 cash back for purchasing washing machines which have a minimum 4 star water efficiency rating....
There were energy company rebates of $75 to $150 for front-loading washers not long ago when I bought mine.
In Maryland, Energy Star rated appliances were and might still be exempt form sales tax.
As for machines lasting longer than 5 years, Mieles have an excellent record for longevity. Many others will last a long time with proper care and maintenance. If a washer has been cared for and looks almost brand new, the owner is more likely to figure it is part of maintenance to replace a tub bearing and center seal in a 10 to 15 year old Maytag to keep it functioning instead of getting rid of it and buying new. Of course, those who do get rid of such machines provide great machines for rebuilders who will give them a thorough going over, stick a couple of parts in them and let them wash for another 10 or more years.
As for machines lasting longer than 5 years, Mieles have an excellent record for longevity. Many others will last a long time with proper care and maintenance. If a washer has been cared for and looks almost brand new, the owner is more likely to figure it is part of maintenance to replace a tub bearing and center seal in a 10 to 15 year old Maytag to keep it functioning instead of getting rid of it and buying new. Of course, those who do get rid of such machines provide great machines for rebuilders who will give them a thorough going over, stick a couple of parts in them and let them wash for another 10 or more years.
Does anyone remember.....
The reserve program when the Maytag Neptunes were first introduced????
The reserve program when the Maytag Neptunes were first introduced????
Another part
of the reservation program
of the reservation program
My local utility offers an Energy Star rebate program. I received individual rebates of $100-150 on two refrigerators, a dishwasher and my front-loading washer. Unfortunately, I've read in the local paper that this will be the final year such rebates are offered.
vivalalavatrice
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2005
- Messages
- 1,031
TLHA?
I wonder why US market haven't considered yet the TLHA like a solution to this problem... It would be the maintaining of the TL confort together with the FL convenience...
The problem is the same... only Staber make'em overthere... none have thought to import such kind of machine from Europe?
France is the place where they're most common...
What about this patent we saw producted by the Equator in April 2006 with the name of Cobra-Hybrid being a waser-dryer combo?
I wonder why US market haven't considered yet the TLHA like a solution to this problem... It would be the maintaining of the TL confort together with the FL convenience...
The problem is the same... only Staber make'em overthere... none have thought to import such kind of machine from Europe?
France is the place where they're most common...
What about this patent we saw producted by the Equator in April 2006 with the name of Cobra-Hybrid being a waser-dryer combo?
vivalalavatrice
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2005
- Messages
- 1,031
TLHA?
I wonder why US market haven't considered yet the TLHA like a solution to this problem... It would be the maintaining of the TL confort together with the FL convenience...
The problem is the same... only Staber make'em overthere... none have thought to import such kind of machine from Europe?
France is the place where they're most common...
What about this patent we saw producted by the Equator in April 2006 with the name of Cobra-Hybrid being a waser-dryer combo?
I wonder why US market haven't considered yet the TLHA like a solution to this problem... It would be the maintaining of the TL confort together with the FL convenience...
The problem is the same... only Staber make'em overthere... none have thought to import such kind of machine from Europe?
France is the place where they're most common...
What about this patent we saw producted by the Equator in April 2006 with the name of Cobra-Hybrid being a waser-dryer combo?
toggleswitch
Well-known member
~I wonder why US market haven't considered yet the TLHA like a solution to this problem...
It is my understanding that the interpretation of the American consumer maket at the time front-loaders made their latest "grand en-masse debut" was that we would not (easily) tolerate:
1- Small porhole/openings.
2- Small cpacity machines.
3- Slow time-consuming machines ("Time is money")
4- Inconvenience of bending/awkward loading.
5- Poor performace, lack of bleach and excessive temperatures. (Cultural norms are hard to change!!!!)
So the classic and well-known front-loader was Americanized.
(Super-size it for only 99 cents!).
A- Bigger drum and door. Outer cabinets reconfigured to be approximatley 27" x 27" (the existing "standard"), some even deeper.
B- A quick cycle/programme time of 30+/- minutes.
C- Hot and cold fill.
D- On-board heater only on TOL models, not mandatory.
E- Wattage/amperage draw tempered to work on our 120v circuitry/system.
[NOTE: washer and GAS dryer were traditionally configured to work on ONE 20a 120v circuit (1,920 watts where 120v x 20a x 0.80%)
(1,920w = 16a total, with a 10a washer + 6a dryer.
Here is a news-flash. Compacts and portables have not yet been hit with mainstream and name-brand front-load washers. So where is everyone with 21" square (53cm2) front-loaders? In the past essentially only Whirlpool made compacts domestically and slapped everyone else's badge on them.
To get 21" machines we may HAVE TO begin seeing HAFL-ers.
and that is not a bad thing! And to get them at 18" wide (40cm) would be even more fabulous!
It is my understanding that the interpretation of the American consumer maket at the time front-loaders made their latest "grand en-masse debut" was that we would not (easily) tolerate:
1- Small porhole/openings.
2- Small cpacity machines.
3- Slow time-consuming machines ("Time is money")
4- Inconvenience of bending/awkward loading.
5- Poor performace, lack of bleach and excessive temperatures. (Cultural norms are hard to change!!!!)
So the classic and well-known front-loader was Americanized.
(Super-size it for only 99 cents!).
A- Bigger drum and door. Outer cabinets reconfigured to be approximatley 27" x 27" (the existing "standard"), some even deeper.
B- A quick cycle/programme time of 30+/- minutes.
C- Hot and cold fill.
D- On-board heater only on TOL models, not mandatory.
E- Wattage/amperage draw tempered to work on our 120v circuitry/system.
[NOTE: washer and GAS dryer were traditionally configured to work on ONE 20a 120v circuit (1,920 watts where 120v x 20a x 0.80%)
(1,920w = 16a total, with a 10a washer + 6a dryer.
Here is a news-flash. Compacts and portables have not yet been hit with mainstream and name-brand front-load washers. So where is everyone with 21" square (53cm2) front-loaders? In the past essentially only Whirlpool made compacts domestically and slapped everyone else's badge on them.
To get 21" machines we may HAVE TO begin seeing HAFL-ers.
and that is not a bad thing! And to get them at 18" wide (40cm) would be even more fabulous!
That's the Neptune that I have since new but did not go on there reservation list. Just went into the local Maytag dealer not home depot, won't buy appliances from them, I like to deal with the local guy. What I was wondering was that when I purchased my Neptune, it came with a video tape of the machine and how to use it. Do the new machines come with a dvd on the proper usage of their new machine?
Jon
Jon
laundramatt
New member
Not as long as I have breath in my lungs and enough money to buy toploaders!!!
I am always interested to know where governments get the figures for their mandates from. Are they decided on best overall pactice and performance outcomes for consumers, or some kind of arbitrary consensus that only supports their agendas? Lets face it, it is clear that their priority isn't clean, well rinsed laundry nowadays, but to get people to save water and energy by hook or by crook and largely for their own political/selfish reasons.
Here in Australia, the rebate that is paid to consumers actually comes out of their own pockets anyway. Considering the relative high cost of TOL front loaders, it is a paltry sum. With the low-end front loaders it is a waste of money and as environmentally sensible as leaded petrol. So, here people are being hoodwinked into believing that they are getting a financial reward for being environmentally pro-active. What it really means is that they are motivated into buying products that may not even be what they want, that exact a much higher total cost to the environment than Australian made top loaders and it is pro-actively helping the decline of our domestic white goods industry. Last, but not least, here in Australia consumer tests now show that many front loaders, which are very highly rated for utility savings, actually underperform in overall terms.
I guess if governments mandate variety out of existence, people will become used to the existing standard of the day and not notice any resulting decline in performance.
Now, vivalavatrice asks why we don't just change to horizontal axis top loaders, where we should get the best of both worlds. If that were the case, why are manufacturers continuing to develop new vertical axis designs and technologies? Because the answer to your question, vivalavatrice, is no. A lot of the reasons for which people reject horizontal axis machines are still there. Over recent years there have been far more interesting design developments for vertical axis machines than front loaders. With top loaders, designers have been thinking a little more outside the square to achieve environmental standards it seems. Plus, they still offer consumers the choice between utility saving programs and standard operation. Anything that has been somewhat revolutionary in European washer design of late, seems to have fallen by the wayside. I also don't think that it is appropriate or good business practice to impose European washer design standards on the rest of the world.
Anyway, I don't think that the time has come to write off vertical axis washers just yet. It is clear that there are people who are convinced that they should be wiped off the face of this earth, but what do they know?
Here in Australia, the rebate that is paid to consumers actually comes out of their own pockets anyway. Considering the relative high cost of TOL front loaders, it is a paltry sum. With the low-end front loaders it is a waste of money and as environmentally sensible as leaded petrol. So, here people are being hoodwinked into believing that they are getting a financial reward for being environmentally pro-active. What it really means is that they are motivated into buying products that may not even be what they want, that exact a much higher total cost to the environment than Australian made top loaders and it is pro-actively helping the decline of our domestic white goods industry. Last, but not least, here in Australia consumer tests now show that many front loaders, which are very highly rated for utility savings, actually underperform in overall terms.
I guess if governments mandate variety out of existence, people will become used to the existing standard of the day and not notice any resulting decline in performance.
Now, vivalavatrice asks why we don't just change to horizontal axis top loaders, where we should get the best of both worlds. If that were the case, why are manufacturers continuing to develop new vertical axis designs and technologies? Because the answer to your question, vivalavatrice, is no. A lot of the reasons for which people reject horizontal axis machines are still there. Over recent years there have been far more interesting design developments for vertical axis machines than front loaders. With top loaders, designers have been thinking a little more outside the square to achieve environmental standards it seems. Plus, they still offer consumers the choice between utility saving programs and standard operation. Anything that has been somewhat revolutionary in European washer design of late, seems to have fallen by the wayside. I also don't think that it is appropriate or good business practice to impose European washer design standards on the rest of the world.
Anyway, I don't think that the time has come to write off vertical axis washers just yet. It is clear that there are people who are convinced that they should be wiped off the face of this earth, but what do they know?
launderess
Well-known member
Problem with vertical axis top loaders grows as one tries to design uber sized units that hold what Americans consider "standard" capacity for a top loading washing machine, about 18lbs. Consumer Reports panned Staber's unit because of "capacity" issues.
There are great washing machines out there, both top loading and front loading that have more features than any of us could ever want, and are built for the duration; problem is they are mainly commercial units that would set one back several thousand, which is what a domestic washer would cost built to those specs. Sadly Amercian consumers, for the most part, have a hard time getting their heads around washing machines that cost upwards of one thousand dollars or more.
There are great washing machines out there, both top loading and front loading that have more features than any of us could ever want, and are built for the duration; problem is they are mainly commercial units that would set one back several thousand, which is what a domestic washer would cost built to those specs. Sadly Amercian consumers, for the most part, have a hard time getting their heads around washing machines that cost upwards of one thousand dollars or more.
Amercian consumers, for the most part, have a hard time gett
...that cost upwards of one thousand dollars or more.
Why does that come as a suprise? For decades American consumers have come to expect quality products at very reasonable prices. Naturally, many older people, who still know about quality are lamenting the new direction of (non) durables.
This is what I find so very fascinating. People will squawk on about the environment, energy, carbons and utilities and all that jazz, but nobody says a word about the environmental cost of globalization and its cheap and nasty throwaway crap. Now when we pay top $$$s we don't even have any guarantees that we are getting top quality. My case in point is my four year old 63 inch Samsung rear projection tele. I paid $6000 for it and had nothing but trouble. They don't even make parts for it anymore. So, next time it goes bung that'll probably be the end of it, even though it is still under extended warranty.
At least I know that my Speed Queen washer is made in the good old US of A and built to last.
...that cost upwards of one thousand dollars or more.
Why does that come as a suprise? For decades American consumers have come to expect quality products at very reasonable prices. Naturally, many older people, who still know about quality are lamenting the new direction of (non) durables.
This is what I find so very fascinating. People will squawk on about the environment, energy, carbons and utilities and all that jazz, but nobody says a word about the environmental cost of globalization and its cheap and nasty throwaway crap. Now when we pay top $$$s we don't even have any guarantees that we are getting top quality. My case in point is my four year old 63 inch Samsung rear projection tele. I paid $6000 for it and had nothing but trouble. They don't even make parts for it anymore. So, next time it goes bung that'll probably be the end of it, even though it is still under extended warranty.
At least I know that my Speed Queen washer is made in the good old US of A and built to last.
laundromat
Well-known member
Cobra
The prototype has been shipped from our Houston office to our factory in China to be tested and modified.No word as of yet on the outcome.All I can and will say is get ready.This model has a 3.3 cu ft capacity.It will be a 220 volt vented model with a 1200 rpm spin.
The prototype has been shipped from our Houston office to our factory in China to be tested and modified.No word as of yet on the outcome.All I can and will say is get ready.This model has a 3.3 cu ft capacity.It will be a 220 volt vented model with a 1200 rpm spin.
Interesting topic!
I remember a time in the 70s, more than once actually, when I came home from being at a friends's house (I was about 10 maybe) and my mother and several of her friends/neighbors were on the back porch talking....I'd hear someone say "I just had to buy a new washing machine". It was a huge deal, the cost outlay, the difficult decision to get rid of the old one, the expectations of the new one, etc. To some it seemed like a stressful purchase. Yes, they sure were durable goods in those days.
If we look at prices of a Kenmore mid-line machine through the years, the prices have remained relatively fixed, even with inflation, so there's no alternative for the machines to have become cheaper and cheaper from a quality standpoint, and thus switch from durable goods to consumer goods.
In 1962 a Kenmore 60 or 70 was priced around $225 or so. My folks paid $269 for a 70 in 1974, and $330 for another 70 in 1983. I paid $359 for mine in late 1986. I also bought a new Mustang in 1986 for $9,000. In 2004 I bought another new Mustang - that one cost me $21,000 and I got nearly 25% off the sticker. I could have bought a Kenmore 70 though for $399 at about anytime in 2004.
The prices for washers and probably appliances in general have not kept up with inflation, which I'm not complaining about, but consumers have forced this to happen, but at the same time have allowed their expectations of machines to drop.
People ask me frequently what I would recommend in a new washer purchase. I usually suggest a Whirlpool made direct drive top loader. Years ago I felt they were junk, but now they look quite good comparatively speaking. I do not believe that a small family or single person would reap the energy saving benefits of an HE machine as compared to the price outlay vs. a well-proven design top loader. A big family or in areas where energy and/or water is expensive, yes. For the rest of us, not yet anyway.
Then again I still hear complaints about the Maytag Neptune's durability and stuff about the class-action lawsuits regarding the HE Whirlpool top loaders (can't remember their name at the moment).
For the moment, and until a front loader is durable enough that we can get $1000 worth of service from it, I'll stay with a top loader as long as they're still made, OR keep working on repairing old ones.
I remember a time in the 70s, more than once actually, when I came home from being at a friends's house (I was about 10 maybe) and my mother and several of her friends/neighbors were on the back porch talking....I'd hear someone say "I just had to buy a new washing machine". It was a huge deal, the cost outlay, the difficult decision to get rid of the old one, the expectations of the new one, etc. To some it seemed like a stressful purchase. Yes, they sure were durable goods in those days.
If we look at prices of a Kenmore mid-line machine through the years, the prices have remained relatively fixed, even with inflation, so there's no alternative for the machines to have become cheaper and cheaper from a quality standpoint, and thus switch from durable goods to consumer goods.
In 1962 a Kenmore 60 or 70 was priced around $225 or so. My folks paid $269 for a 70 in 1974, and $330 for another 70 in 1983. I paid $359 for mine in late 1986. I also bought a new Mustang in 1986 for $9,000. In 2004 I bought another new Mustang - that one cost me $21,000 and I got nearly 25% off the sticker. I could have bought a Kenmore 70 though for $399 at about anytime in 2004.
The prices for washers and probably appliances in general have not kept up with inflation, which I'm not complaining about, but consumers have forced this to happen, but at the same time have allowed their expectations of machines to drop.
People ask me frequently what I would recommend in a new washer purchase. I usually suggest a Whirlpool made direct drive top loader. Years ago I felt they were junk, but now they look quite good comparatively speaking. I do not believe that a small family or single person would reap the energy saving benefits of an HE machine as compared to the price outlay vs. a well-proven design top loader. A big family or in areas where energy and/or water is expensive, yes. For the rest of us, not yet anyway.
Then again I still hear complaints about the Maytag Neptune's durability and stuff about the class-action lawsuits regarding the HE Whirlpool top loaders (can't remember their name at the moment).
For the moment, and until a front loader is durable enough that we can get $1000 worth of service from it, I'll stay with a top loader as long as they're still made, OR keep working on repairing old ones.
Are Americans stupid? Or do we just play them on TV?
I have just found this forum.
And I have to ask myself, why are my fellow Americans idiots?
Forget about the FL/TL argument -- folks on both sides have their good and silly points to make. But why, why, why does every product have to be dumbed down for the USA?
My wife and I have had FLs for almost 14 years. The first one was awesome -- infinitely variable temperature controls from ambient cold to 95C, had a great selection of programs, etc.
An unfortunate accident caused us to have to replace it a few years ago. It was a piece of junk by comparison.
We've just bought a replacement Bosch FL. Another piece of junk, that Lowes is taking back. We'll be getting a Whirlpool Duet to replace it. But, give me a break; it has an internal heater, but only the stupid 'hot warm cold' settings. No particular settings for spin speed, etc.
I didn't think we were so stupid as a nation not to be able to operate appliances, but, maybe we are?
Unlike many of you , I DO believe that front loaders, if properly built, are better machines. But it is that caveat that is in question.
Nate
I have just found this forum.
And I have to ask myself, why are my fellow Americans idiots?
Forget about the FL/TL argument -- folks on both sides have their good and silly points to make. But why, why, why does every product have to be dumbed down for the USA?
My wife and I have had FLs for almost 14 years. The first one was awesome -- infinitely variable temperature controls from ambient cold to 95C, had a great selection of programs, etc.
An unfortunate accident caused us to have to replace it a few years ago. It was a piece of junk by comparison.
We've just bought a replacement Bosch FL. Another piece of junk, that Lowes is taking back. We'll be getting a Whirlpool Duet to replace it. But, give me a break; it has an internal heater, but only the stupid 'hot warm cold' settings. No particular settings for spin speed, etc.
I didn't think we were so stupid as a nation not to be able to operate appliances, but, maybe we are?
Unlike many of you , I DO believe that front loaders, if properly built, are better machines. But it is that caveat that is in question.
Nate
brant_ix
Member
Hey Nate...
You might want to look at the MayTag Epic 9700.
It gives you a lot more options, spin speed, Deep Soak, and Rinse and has better reliability over the Duets since they were the old KitchenAid Models retagged. Consumers and Consumer Reports give them 4.8 and 4.9 *'s out of five for satisfaction and options.
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_02637892000P?v
You might want to look at the MayTag Epic 9700.
It gives you a lot more options, spin speed, Deep Soak, and Rinse and has better reliability over the Duets since they were the old KitchenAid Models retagged. Consumers and Consumer Reports give them 4.8 and 4.9 *'s out of five for satisfaction and options.
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_02637892000P?v
passatdoc
Well-known member
cashbacks for front loaders (twinniefan)
Some parts of the USA do not have water shortages. In areas where water must be conserved, cashbacks are more common. I live in Southern California and received two cashbacks (we call them rebates) for my Frigidaire 2140 FL:
1. $100 from the government water agency
2. $35 from the natural gas utility, which is privately owned, though subject to government regulation
FLs use less water and thus less hot water, because American machines fill from both cold and hot water lines. There usually is no rebate from the electric utility, because these machines don't directly save on electricity, unless one has an electric water heater. Higher end models with onboard heaters probably use more electricity when a high temperature cycle is selected.
When I bought my Bosch dishwasher seven years ago, I received a $50 rebate from the gas utility (again, because of savings of hot water; our dishwashers fill from the hot water tap and the heater fires up only when the hot water line temperature is below the selected rinse temperature). There was no water agency rebate or electrical rebate.
I also own a two year old Frigidaire refrigerator and there was a $50 rebate from the electric utility because this model uses less electricity than previous models.
Some parts of the USA do not have water shortages. In areas where water must be conserved, cashbacks are more common. I live in Southern California and received two cashbacks (we call them rebates) for my Frigidaire 2140 FL:
1. $100 from the government water agency
2. $35 from the natural gas utility, which is privately owned, though subject to government regulation
FLs use less water and thus less hot water, because American machines fill from both cold and hot water lines. There usually is no rebate from the electric utility, because these machines don't directly save on electricity, unless one has an electric water heater. Higher end models with onboard heaters probably use more electricity when a high temperature cycle is selected.
When I bought my Bosch dishwasher seven years ago, I received a $50 rebate from the gas utility (again, because of savings of hot water; our dishwashers fill from the hot water tap and the heater fires up only when the hot water line temperature is below the selected rinse temperature). There was no water agency rebate or electrical rebate.
I also own a two year old Frigidaire refrigerator and there was a $50 rebate from the electric utility because this model uses less electricity than previous models.
passatdoc
Well-known member
ps
For readers outside North America, typical hot water line temperature is 140F/68C. A basic FL model without an onboard heater therefore cannot run a wash hotter than the temperature of the hot water line that supplies the washer. My Frig 2140 has no heater and thus cannot wash at temperatures above what are in my hot water line. For most people, a 60-65 C wash is adequate.
If one is trying to sterilize towels or diapers, 70 or 80 C may be better. In North America, this is possible in more expensive models that include an onboard heater (as nearly all dishwashers have) to boost the water temp to 70 or 80 C. Because we use 120V current, the process takes a long time, and a cycle involving the onboard heater will likely take two hours or more....the same as a typical cycle in a European or international machine with cold water fill only (which at least can heat the water with 240V current). Although an onboard heater is considered standard in the rest of the world, in the USA it is an excuse to charge 200-300 dollars more for what is essentially the same washer with a heater, as if this is a "luxury" feature. They can get away with it because most people can wash adequately with no onboard heater using hot water line fill....and people did so for years with toploaders that lacked heaters.
The nice thing about hot water fill in a non-heater machine (or in a heater machine where you don't select the hot/sterilize cycle) is that the wash completes in often 60-75 minutes, often an hour faster than in the rest of the world when one selects say 60C wash temperature.
US machines rarely if ever have a degrees Celsius selector like the rest of the world. Just "cold", "warm", and "hot". To engage the heater, one generally selects the "Sanitize" cycle plus "hot" temp selection, and this combination engages the water heater to boost the temperature to about 80 C or 160F. Most Europeans would expect a washer to quickly heat water from 65 C water line temp to 80 C, since it doesn't have to heat from the cold water line, but because we have only 110V power, the process takes longer than it would in Europe.
For readers outside North America, typical hot water line temperature is 140F/68C. A basic FL model without an onboard heater therefore cannot run a wash hotter than the temperature of the hot water line that supplies the washer. My Frig 2140 has no heater and thus cannot wash at temperatures above what are in my hot water line. For most people, a 60-65 C wash is adequate.
If one is trying to sterilize towels or diapers, 70 or 80 C may be better. In North America, this is possible in more expensive models that include an onboard heater (as nearly all dishwashers have) to boost the water temp to 70 or 80 C. Because we use 120V current, the process takes a long time, and a cycle involving the onboard heater will likely take two hours or more....the same as a typical cycle in a European or international machine with cold water fill only (which at least can heat the water with 240V current). Although an onboard heater is considered standard in the rest of the world, in the USA it is an excuse to charge 200-300 dollars more for what is essentially the same washer with a heater, as if this is a "luxury" feature. They can get away with it because most people can wash adequately with no onboard heater using hot water line fill....and people did so for years with toploaders that lacked heaters.
The nice thing about hot water fill in a non-heater machine (or in a heater machine where you don't select the hot/sterilize cycle) is that the wash completes in often 60-75 minutes, often an hour faster than in the rest of the world when one selects say 60C wash temperature.
US machines rarely if ever have a degrees Celsius selector like the rest of the world. Just "cold", "warm", and "hot". To engage the heater, one generally selects the "Sanitize" cycle plus "hot" temp selection, and this combination engages the water heater to boost the temperature to about 80 C or 160F. Most Europeans would expect a washer to quickly heat water from 65 C water line temp to 80 C, since it doesn't have to heat from the cold water line, but because we have only 110V power, the process takes longer than it would in Europe.
vivalalavatrice
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2005
- Messages
- 1,031
CLAP CLAP!
Neither I would have been good to say the same...
What else to say my dear PassatDoc?
CLAP CLAP!
Thanks for the precious informations, none knows this important things whether nobody of us dayly comparing the american and the european culture in uses adn habits go to say them!
GoodBye
Diomede
Neither I would have been good to say the same...
What else to say my dear PassatDoc?
CLAP CLAP!
Thanks for the precious informations, none knows this important things whether nobody of us dayly comparing the american and the european culture in uses adn habits go to say them!
GoodBye
Diomede
passatdoc
Well-known member
Prego, prego.
sad fate for this TL-WD set!Those who are sensitive may not want to watch the link.Could this be the sad fate for possibly usuable TL washers out there?did the folks who put these out for the "Crusher"get a new FL set?At their prices--maybe home washers could be an endangered species.At BB the other day say a LG FL washer dryer set where they cost $2300 each! and the matching pedistals were $475Each!!You could buy a nice TL machine for just the price of one pedistal.At the price of that LG FL set at BB-I'll take my clothes to a laundramat or use a cleaners!
oxydolfan1
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2006
- Messages
- 1,764
Isn't that strange? I watched just to see how much metal a washer would crush down to. The dryer seemed far more willing to be consumed...
You know, the front-loaders are still prohibitively expensive in my neck of the woods....yet, there are pretty decent top loaders available at extremely reasonable prices.
A lot of cash-strapped families would be thrilled to buy a preowned TL set even more cheaply. Couldn't an appliance outlet recondition these lightly-used machines, sell them at a profit that would at least cost the user less than a new one, and make up the difference on volume?
Or do even the Kenmores and Whirlpools really least a year or so anyway?
I recently spoke to a big-box appliance salesman and he said the new front loaders are NOT moving.
You know, the front-loaders are still prohibitively expensive in my neck of the woods....yet, there are pretty decent top loaders available at extremely reasonable prices.
A lot of cash-strapped families would be thrilled to buy a preowned TL set even more cheaply. Couldn't an appliance outlet recondition these lightly-used machines, sell them at a profit that would at least cost the user less than a new one, and make up the difference on volume?
Or do even the Kenmores and Whirlpools really least a year or so anyway?
I recently spoke to a big-box appliance salesman and he said the new front loaders are NOT moving.
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