The fabric softener debate from a hair care P.O.V.

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Cybrvanr

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Not sure if many of you all have seen pictures of me or not, but I have very long hair, it goes about halfway down my back. Maintaining hair this long, of course, requires special care. One of those is to wash it properly. In the Front loader vs top loader thread, the debate over using fabric softeners has come about. The issue is that if one doesn't use too much detergent, then fabric softener is not needed. Fabric softener is an oily based substance that bonds with the fabric. Only a surfactant added to the water will remove it. One theory is that a cycle is started so that the user will consume too much detergent to wash fabric softener out (and thus minimize a "dirty" feel to the article) Then, the clothes will become stiff and harsh...so F.S. will then be needed.

Okay, so how does this apply to hair care? Well, I've been to many places to get my hair shampooed and trimmed up over the years, and they all say that the natural oils are the best hair conditioner. For anyone who has any length to their hair is familiar, human hair does require a little bit of oils in it to keep it healthy, silky and shiny. Shampoo manufacturers even state on the bottle to repeat washing until hair is "squeaky" clean, then apply conditioner. This is the WRONG way to do it according to salons, and my own experience! I wash my hair every other day, and lightly shampoo it only once, and rinse it out with plenty of water. My hair stays very nice, silky, and tangle free, and I DON'T use conditioner in it (which is like fabric softener for hair!)

So, looks like hair care and fabric care are very similiar. I've been using the "less is more" idea with laundry detergent too, and have never needed to use fabric softener. Part of this too, is proper loading and useage of the laundry equipment too, but I have never had an issue where the clothes are not claned properly, even though I use less than the recommended amount of detergent...on both my hair and on my clothes!
 
I only lather the hair once, never repeat. Haven't used conditioner in years. But I do use fabric softener. On my clothes. :-)
 
Oh this is going to be a long one LOL

Coming from someone who had chest length hair for 10 years, works with chemicals daily, and has feet high stacks of trials, tests, and information, you've posted the right question LOL. OK, for starters, to have healthy, manageable, shiny hair WITHOUT the use of a conditioner you must have a healthy cuticle. While oils are indeed an important part of hair protection and sheen, the cuticle is the pinnacle of good hair. The cuticle is the main source of protection for the hair shaft. Overlapping layers of what look like fish scales cover the hair strand. Everytime you brush it, color it, curl it wash it, you chip off some of those scales and nothing can put them back on or repair them no matter what they say. That being said, it sounds to me like you have a healthy cuticle. A healthy cuticle lies completely flat against the hair shaft giving the hair shine, manageability, and movement. You basically have the dream head of hair. Moves, shines, keeps it's shape( and doesn't require a conditioner to do that). This is labeled as "Normal Hair". As for the rest of us (Double Processed Platinum Blonde highlights)................Actually, as I sit hear, it might just be a REALLY good idea (if you are interested). There are 2 books on the market that will explain in depth Why conditioners work, why shampoo's work, hair bonds, and ingredient breakdowns that will completely clarify the myths and truthes about hair care products and in understanding how they work, clarify the fabric softener issue LOL it's the same principle. One of them is called "The Beauty Bible". The other is called "Don't Go Shopping For Hair Care Products Without Me". The author is Paula Begoun. She has a website with links to her books, products and knowledge. They are absolutely fascinating reading and there is a TON to be learned in them. A lot of the information can be applied to everyday products once you understand how they are formulated. So at this point I think I'll get off my Soap Box and let Paula take over LOL. Follow the link :)

Best Regards,
Geoff

http://www.cosmeticscop.com
 
For years I had hair down to the small of my back. Well, if I combed it out straight, that is; it's normally quite curly.

I think I used a gallon of conditioner for every pint of shampoo! A lot of people said not to shampoo every day, but that just sounded icky to me. I was careful to shampoo only the top and let the ends stay untouched by shampoo. Then the reverse for conditioning; ends only. Still, my hair was pretty dry. Of course, in those days, I dyed it regularly.

(I actually did buy conditioner by the gallon, with the pump on the top.)

Now my hair is Short 'n Sassy and the only conditioner I use is the one that's built into the shampoo.

I did toy with the idea of using Downy on my hair but was put off by the smell. Don't know why it wouldn't work, though. Wool is hair, after all.

What I really needed was some of that old-fashioned heavy pink Creme Rinse that you can't find any more. Now it's all conditioner with exotic ingredients and a price tag to match.

Hmmm. Where was I going with this? Anyone know? 'Cause I sure don't remember!

veg
 
ok guys.. HAIRDRESSER is in the house !

The hairdresser is now checked in.
Im not going to make this a long thread. using the RIGHT products( shampoo AND conditioner)will make hair, soft, managable, shiney and tangle free.
Longer hair is older hair, and needs to be treated correctly!(especially highly damaged hair.)
I've NEVER been one to agree to use food( IE Eggs, mayo, Oil treatments) on hair, as they WILL NOT penatrate the hair shaft, ONLY COAT IT!
using fabric softner on hair? NO WAY!thats just wrong!!
Professional haircare products are best.Reason why? They are BETTER QUALITY! BTW, Hair conditioners ALWAYS cost more, they DO MORE work!

the hairdresser has left the building...

Rich
 
Long beautiful hair

I have to agree with geoff "You basically have the dream head of hair. Moves, shines, keeps it's shape( and doesn't require a conditioner to do that).
Hairdresser once told me years ago, a healthy head of hair did NOT require conditioner.
We go thru tons of it in this house. Im constantly having to switch brands in order to get it to what I want. Which is basically, just be straight, in Texas humidity. I resort now to using *Bio-silk*. Love the smell, and a "little dab will do ya"!

After chemically processing my own hair after 30 freakin' years, I decided to let it go back to "au natural". It's coming along nicely, nice grey! Can't wait to see the final results, which should take another year.

Pink cream rinse in the large quart and half-gallon jugs, are still sold in some of the 99 cent stores here. They really stink. Some of it is imported from Mexico. It's not the same stuff I think veg was talking about that was available from the 70's....but yeah, I would love to find some of that stuff again.
 
Paula is a scam. She doesn't llike ANYTHING unless she's making money on it. How do you think those companies have been able to stay in business since before her grandmother was born if their products didn't do anything.

Paula's been singing the same old song for years and years. If she were right, she's be famous by now since she's been on many, many tv shows when they're desperate for a filler to take up a little time. If she really wants to sell her products, why not just sell them for what they are--cheap but probably OK for lower middle class people.
 
OH MY GOD

There are 3 suppliers of raw ingredients in the US. The Salon products get their ingredients from the SAME HIGH QUALITY ingredient manufacterers as the drug store brands. There is no such thing as "Elite" ingredients. That is what the Product representatives tell you and it is pure puffery. Dimethicone or cyclomethicone wether in a drug store brand or a Salon brand are the same damn thing, Silicone Oil! There are no differences in ingredients between the 2 brands. Now, that being said. I personally like Bumble and Bumble. The 5 bottles I have on my shelf in the shower total more than $120. NOW, could I get the same quality in a drugstore brand?? You BET!! I just like the smell of the B&B products. I get my hair done every 5 weeks and just grab a new bottle everytime I go. This is a convenience thing and not a quality issue. I'm willing to pay the extra money to not have to go to the store and I'll pay extra for the fragrance, which is basically what I am paying for seeing that the ingredients cost a penny an ounce for the shampoo and HALF a penny for the conditioner. Can I get the same results with Pantene? You Bet. Do I pay extra because I think I'm getting something superior?? HARDLY!! I just Like Bumble and Bumble. Alas, to each their own.
 
Well I have to agree with Geoff above. Nothing sells like vanity and the cosmetic and hair care industry have that down pat. How many exotic shampoo ingredients have we been subjected to over the 20 years, from the lowly egg shampoo, then beer shampoo right on the a veritable cornucopia of fruits and vegetable medleys, most notable Aloe and or Jojoba. Now I hear all the raves about Shea butter? what the H is Shea butter and what's it doing in a shampoo LOL.
Now I can just imagine how much actual Aloe Vera juice is mixed into a 5000 gallon vat of shampoo fixins, one drop or two? That's all they need to do to make the claim legal and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars advertising it.
My next chagrin to all that puffery is about the essential oils and amino acids, vitamins etc in shampoo, what the heck are amino acids and vitamins going to do to dead cells, which is what hair is, dead cellular matter other than the root it's dead folks, no amount of vitamins and minerals will bring it to life. Eat the vitamins and minerals and you'll probably grow better looking hair. Does anyone remember only a few years ago CR did some testing on shampoo's, sent out blind samples for feedback and one of the highest rated people liked was Palmolive Dish Detergent. Well that's my rant and I'm stickin to it.
 
Reworded and Rephraised

As I sit back and read my poorly worded and generally crass words above, I must take a step back and re-word in a much nicer more experience minded tone. I do apologize for my abrupt fingers. At work tonight I compounded a solution we call "L.E.T" (Lidocaine-Epinephrine-Tetracaine and a small amount of Sodium Metabisulfite.)This is a solution used for Eye lacerations before they inject Novocaine and stitch you up. All of the ingredients I use for LET come in their raw, powdered form from 1 of only 3 manufacturers. We happen to use Gallipot. Now, Say I made up 3 batches of LET. All were compounded from the same ingredients, from the same manufacturer. I name batch 1, Paul Mitchell, Batch 2, Suave, and batch 3, Geoff's Miracle Numbing Concoction. This is PURELY hypothetical, but say you walked into an ER and the Nurse or Doctor named off 3 of the brands they were going to use on your eye before they stitched you up. How many of you would pick Geoff's Miracle Numbing Concoction?? Now honestly think about that. 3 different names, same ingredients, same raw ingredient manufacturers. You would most likely pick the more expensive more well known name, even though they cost the same to produce, look the same, ARE the same. On a different note, there is a FABULOUS product on the market called Tend-Skin. It is a wonderful solution used for razor bumps. Tend-Skin also costs about $50 for 8 ounces. I refuse to pay $50 for this solution, even I have my limits. So I actually MAKE my own version at work using the same basic ingredients. I do add a little fragrance to mine because both Tend-Skin and my formula smell horrible because of the nature of the ingredients. It works just as wonderfully, has the same consistency, and costs about 50 cents to make. I am very happy with my own formula, it works just as well and is saving me $49.50 Product manufacturers spend MILLIONS advertising their products. A lot of that cost gets trickled down to the consumer in the way of higher product pricing. A non-advertised product will surely cost less only due to the fact that they have no overhead advertising costs. We are all properly propagandized by manufacterurers. If you can afford the higher prices and like the product, By all means, go for it. Just don't be fooled into thinking that you are buying a higher quality. On that note, I bid you all a wonderful Goodnight as I drift off to bed. Venus, Thank you for your input. Stevie, Thanks for adding me in as an afterthought LOL Thank you dahhling, big kiss LOL.
 
ingredient breakdown for Pete

PeteK,

Shea Butter is the fat extracted from the seed of the Shea nut. It contains a high concentration of amino acids and fatty esters. What does this mean for your hair and skin? It basically means it's an emollient that can coat and protect from dryness and heat LOL. Doesn't sound so luxurious now does it?? LOL. Amino acids are good water binding agents for the hair and skin. Vitamins provide anti-oxidant benefits. So here's what they do. Amino acids attract water to the hair and skin. Shea Butter provides an emollient sheath to help hold the moisture in, and Vitamins IN THEORY will help prevent free-radical damage. Put it all together and what sounds exotic becomes a rather basic and rather plain form of moisturizer LOL. Amazing how they can apply whatever exotic terms they want to an ingredient but when it comes down to the nitty gritty, it's all VERY basic :)
 
No more greasy kid stuff sasy an old commerical ad.

Said: Stevie, Thanks for adding me in as an afterthought LOL Thank you dahhling, big kiss LOL.

U R never an after-thought.

P.S. dont pay a lot for grease. Olive oil works too and we know exactly what it its made of, and where it comes from.
 
Embalming

"My next chagrin to all that puffery is about the essential oils and amino acids, vitamins etc in shampoo, what the heck are amino acids and vitamins going to do to dead cells, which is what hair is, dead cellular matter other than the root it's dead folks, no amount of vitamins and minerals will bring it to life"

I realized this a long time ago. Once the hair shaft leaves the follicle, it's a 'dead" issue. We're basically all morticians trying to embalm dead protein in various ways for as long as we can.
 
Fabric softener

As for favric softener, maybe my sense of touch is screwed up, but honestly, clothes don't seem to be any "softer" when I use FS.

Therefore, I tend to use it only when I want the smell and/or elimination of static cling, especially when drying synthethic favrics which can really build up a charge.
 
Thread title

But what does "P.O.V." mean?

1/2 tsp of Garnier Frutis shampoo in the shower for the hair, and 1 tsp of Snuggle in the washer for the last rinse.
 
I have loved fabric softener since the days of Sta-Puf and NuSoft. Currently I use Mexican fabric softener "ensueno" which has a lavender scent, otherwise, I love April Fresh Downey as it leaves a nice scent on the clothes.
Fabric softener is also great if you get the heartbreak of suds lock.
 
Said: 1/2 tsp of Garnier Frutis shampoo in the shower for the hair, and 1 tsp of Snuggle in the washer for the last rinse.

Damn that boy is tight---er frugal.
 
Frugal? Clark Howard I am not! Very short/thinning hair doesn't need much, nor does the final rinse in a Miele. My towels are absobent and fluffy, not heavy, perfumy and gummy!
 
If only I had hair

I dont have any hair to condition. I dont have low maintanace, I maintanace free hair. With taking 3 showers a day I have no time to fluff and puff. Now back in the 80's when I had some hair before my days of jerry curl juice, I tryed so many different shampoos and conditioners and the results was always the same, a rug! Now I just buy what ever sams has in the biggest cheapest jug.

The fabric sofener debate. Yeah I use it. Not nearly as much as I use to except towels and sheets. Nothing like the smell of april fresh downey after letting the eletric blanket pre-heat the bed before crawling in it.

Scott
 
don't use as the Final Touch

Fabric softeners are not a good idea to use on hair,(though it is said to be a model's secret) for two reasons.Number one,today's softeners are a cationic,i.e.,positive charged surfactant,and secondly,they are alkaline in nature,and hair should maintain a slightly-acidic condition.Perfectly normal,healthy hair does not NEED a conditioner,unless the shampoo is harsh and stripping.Although Paula Begoun has a wealth of good information,she has a very biased,medical-community mentality.Just reading ingredient lists do NOT always tell you everything.For example,you pick up a bottle of shampoo,and it says sodium lauryl sulfate,which is considered a harsh detergent.Thus,you may assume that the product is harsh,when in fact the shampoo may have a low percentage of it,or greatly buffer it with conditioning,or moisturizing agents.And although salon does not necessarily mean better,you may like the blend or balance of ingredients in a salon line better than mass-market lines or vice-versa.A personal example for me was Nexxus Headress leave-in conditioner,one of my all time favorites.It absolutely was superior on my hair.Yet if one read the ingredients,they may say brand B has similar ingredients.But the exact proportions of the ingredients is what did it for me as my hair looked VISIBLY better with it.Unfortunatly,the product was changed about 5 years ago,and I don't care for it now.I LOVED Protein 21 shampoo and Faberge Organics Wheat Germ Oil and Honey shampoo,both which used the supposedly harsh TEA-lauryl sulphate.They were very gentle actually,due to the buffering properties of the total formula.But Paula Begoun automatically downgrades any products with TEA lauryl sulphate,which isn't used much anymore in favor of the super-cheap ammonium laryl sulphate.She is wrong to do so.It's the blend that counts.BTW,most,but not all hair needs conditioning to look and act its best.
 
I remmeber back in the 70's or 80's Consumer Reports did an evaluation of popular shampoos.

Guess what? They found that a common bargain dishwashing liquid, like "Crystal Light" did just as well at cleaning hair as expensive shampoos. That's because they all have the same basic ingredient: SDS or sodium dodecyl laurate. It's a cheap and common high-sudsing surfactant. Of course, the DW liquid won't add any conditioners, so if you need it, you have to follow up with a conditioner. But even then, a conditioner may not be needed if you use a diluted vinegar rinse, to neutralize the alkalinity of the DW liquid.

I recall I tried that method for a while and it worked. But I got lazy and went back to shampoos - especially when I started shopping Costco and I could get a gallon of salon-quality shampoos and conditioner for a song.

As for laundry fabric softeners - they are primarily cationic soaps of long chain fatty acids, such as from beef fat. That's why you will see suds in the final rinse. These cationic surfactants bind to the fabric and impart a soft feel. If you use too much they'll feel greasy. Most washing detergents are anionic or non-ionic surfactants, which will readily displace the cationic fabric softeners when the time is right.

I have sort of longish hair. But the individual strands are very fine - I have measured them at .0015". Most human head hair is .003". In any case, while I still have a full head of hair, I can't grow it much longer than five inches - it tends to split after that. But I'm told it's wonderful to the touch :-).
 
Minor correction: the common surfactant in shampoos and dishwashing liquids is sodium dodecyl sulfate, or sodium laurate. I had some brain fade there.

"Dodecyl" and "Laural" mean the same thing... twelve... that in this case would mean a fatty acid with a chain of 12 carbon atoms... One is Greek ("dodecyl", I think) and the other Latin. I guess the organic chemists liked to cover all the bases.
 

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