Thermador dishwasher observations, updates and questions.

[ultralux88]

Well, firstly despite looking at the model plate and seeing both the model and the date code, I called it a THD4600, when it is actually a 4800... And now onto things that don’t make me feel like a moron... LOL

The first thing I’ve noticed is that it is loud, but it does wash quite well, I’ve found I like, of all things, Regular wash with heated dry and sani steam on. The racks are a bit of a thing to be reckoned with, both in that I need to find at least a new lower one, and that they are quite different to load. I find myself leaving out one silverware basket and one of the upper rack dividers most of the time, fitting things I normally would put in the lower rack up there, but they come clean just as well. I definitely feel it holds less than the Whirlpool.

My questions are: does this machine turn the heater on at all during the washes or
rinses on regular? Or is it totally relying on and washing in that 140°F water it wants coming in, with no real assistance in maintaining it? And it IS getting that 140...

Also, the sani steam thermostat seems to be bad, it started just hanging on the steam in the final rinse if you have sani steam on, and since there’s (I assume) no heat while it’s washing without a steam cycle, I like the idea of it steaming in the final rinse real good and hot. It also seems to get rinse aid like results sans the rinse aid... I suppose between the detergent I use (bubble bandit or cascade fryer boil, whichever tickles my Elmo at the moment) and the heated dry, the sani steam likely isn’t needed, but there’s something about the word ‘Sani’ that really steams me up... I’ve discovered it’s a 160°F thermostat, but I don’t know if it opens or closes when it triggers, or if there’s anything particularly special about it. I haven’t removed it from the inside of the door, but from what I can see it seems like a typical appliance thermostat.

 

[appnut]

Given I grew up with a 1968 Waste King cousin, I can answer a couple of things.  Yes, we always left one of the silverware baskets out.  If during the Sani Heat phase during the final rinse, it never seems to satisfy the thermostat, I suggest you let it sit heating for about 10-20 minutes.  First, when it's sitting and trying to heat the water for steam, does the "on" light turn off?  (as in when it's drying, there should be a light that comes on that shows it's heating for drying as well as "on" for the timer is moving) If that's the case, then after 10-20 minutes, push in and hold the start button until the timer advances increments until the pump comes on the circulate the water.  And no, there is no thermostatic hold to heat water during any of the other washing and rinsing phases.  Just for steam or heating for sani-rinse temp level.  but the heater does come on during washing and rinsing to help maintain water temperature.  So it will need 140 degree water.   It's loud, but won't be quite as loud once it's installed in a cabinet.  Hey, it was the 1960s and 1970s, we didn't know any better. 

 

what things are you putting in the top rack that you would normally put in the bottom rack?  

 

 

[chachp]

Pictures?

 

<span style="font-family: georgia, palatino;">Have you taken any pictures of the racks loaded?  Inquiring minds want to know !!  Or at the very least this one does. </span>

 

[bigalsf]

Hi Reggie, glad you've got it running. Did you get the replacement wash arm yet?

Regarding the heating, no Wasteking dishwasher ever did a thermal hold while washing; before the steam series the only water heating in a cycle was for the Sani-Cycle (165 degrees). The user & service manuals indicate that the supplied water temp needed to be at least 150 degrees.

Bob is correct about early models (1964 to about 1969/70); these models did keep the heater on during the main wash & final rinse to maintain water temp. (unless Sani-cycle had been selected). Starting in the early 70's there was no use of the water heater during the cycle (again, Sani-cycle was the exception).

With the steam system I do not believe heat was added outside of the steaming increments; you'll have to check the wiring diagram/timer schematic to determine. The thermostat is inside the door on these models, just above the detergent dispenser. It closes when the proper temp is reached (not sure what that is, probably 165).

So glad you're enjoying the machine. It is unique and definitely loud! And loading, most times, is definitely an exercise in Tetris. The Power Clean series from Whirlpool really revolutionized dishwasher performance ( for example it was their 5th iteration of a dishwasher pump, each iteration better than the last). It's not fair to compare them except to understand why Wasteking dishwashers slid into oblivion; they failed to continue innovating and improve.

Have fun with the machine! And yes post some pics!

 

[ultralux88]

I did get the wash arms, and that made a HUGE difference!

The issue I’m having with it hanging on the final rinse, it sits there with both the Rinse and Steam lights on, and you hear it in there sizzling away, once I lost track of it and the thing sat and steamed for like an hour! I hit the Sani Steam Off button and then held the start button til the timer clicked and it started pumping water again, then it finished the cycle normally, heated dry and all. It’s done this maybe 2 or 3 times. It doesn’t have this issue with Sani off, so I don’t think it’s our good friend Yitka come to visit.

 

[chachp]

Thanks for the pictures

 

<span style="font-family: georgia, palatino;">It looks like a fun machine to play with.</span>

 

[rp2813]

Reggie, the impression I got from using my Thermador was that those curlicues on the bottom rack were meant to maintain orderly loading.   They were not BobLoad-friendly but I did my best to overcome the obstacles, as seen in the pictures below.  Note the bottom rack sagging under the weight of the load.  This never happened on any other dishwasher I've BobLoaded before or since.

 

As for the noise level, I'm afraid that even when shoehorned inside a proper enclosure, my machine made short work of earning the title of  Thundering Thermador.  There are simply no two ways about/around it.

 

[ultralux88]

I don’t have an “On” light on this one, it just has the ones by the various cycle stages. If it’s on, either the wash rinse or dry light will be on. If it’s steaming, it’ll have wash or rinse as well as the steam light. It hangs up with rinse and steam on the sani rinse.

I also just had the dishwasher do it to me again, and how I got it going again was to just hit the sani steam off button. As soon as I did I heard the time start advancing again, and it finished the cycle.

 

[eronie]

Sounds to me like a bad thermostat.

 

[ultralux88]

That’s my feeling on it. Everything seems to be working fine, yet it never satisfies the mechanism on sani steam.

But what’s really ‘baking my noodle’, to quote the Oracle, is why the regular wash would be better at solving the yibbles and bits problem than the heavy steam. I’d think the rinse between the prewash and main wash would help, as well as the extra time with hot detergent to dissolve them.

 

[stevet]

steam/sani thermostat and yibbles too!

Have you determined if the hold thermostat is a normally open or normally closed thermostat? I have a number of thermostats from older Kitchenaids that function at different temperatures. Notably one at 165 degrees. Check the wiring diagram and see if you can tell which type it is or the service manual if available in the Ephemera section or maybe one of the other guys who may be more familiar with the brand and its workings can tell us and we can see if we can get it to work better for you.

And let's face it, you have a one arm wonder machine so the amount of water that hits the top of the tub and bounces back down to the sump is limited by the loading of the wares. KA had the same issues with their early machines in that regard, though they sure pumped a heck of a lot of water up there. Enzyme based detergents "should" work better to dissolve food particles and work well with today's long cycles. They have lots of time to do the work they were designed to do. Also, most machines provide the correct amount of heating of the water to activate the enzymes as well.

Machines of yore had those really fast wash times and between time and temperature, detergents just may not eliminate the yibbles we all hate. Thus all manufacturers use multiple wash arms and almost all have a separate arm that sprays down now.

No dishwasher is a garbage disposer. Scrape off as much food as you can and give the machine the best chance of doing the job it was designed to do. Not saying to prewash the dishes, just be reasonable and sensible.

 

[ultralux88]

Well, I solved he yibbles and bits issue by making absolutely certain that all cups and glasses on the top rack sit over one of the rails that prop them up at an angle. Since doing this, I haven’t seen a single yibble or bit. I’ve also been more careful about where I place Gladware lids and containers. As far as the detergent goes, the modern detergent did extremely well at removing the food soils from dishes, but not so much on stains, like coffee cups get, or plastic food containers. But the yibbles were off the charts. The Bubble Bandit and Cascade fryer boil does MUCH better at removing stains, and much better at removing the yibbles, but it struggles with some of the food soils in cookware. I’ve been using the modern stuff in the prewash and the Cascade in the main one, and this seems to give me the best results with no yibbles and bits.

I haven’t taken the door panel off yet, but I need to. I saw a wiring diagram for a THD3600 when searching on here, but it doesn’t say anything about close or open on rise. I have an issue now in the same region, the dispenser has been buzzing sometimes, sometimes it’s not opening at all, and on others it’ll fly all the way open in the prewash.

 

[eronie]

The thermostat is close on rise causing timer to move forward.

 

[ultralux88]

Well, I was assuming it would be a close on rise, but I’m in unfamiliar territory and thing can always work differently than I’d expect.

Well, we had a close call, the detergent dispenser buzzing and occasionally not opening up, or opening all the way up too in the first wash. Finally, it just quit doing anything at all. Thankfully it was a simple fix. And I see where the thermostat in there is too. I need to measure the thing and see what size I need. I’m also going to replace the seals on the detergent and rinse dispensers.

 

[appnut]

Reggie, I hope this new little hiccup turns out to be a big blessing in disguise.