Time For a New Furnace

[Chetlaham]

Who makes the Speed Queen of Gas Furnaces? Who makes the best 2 pipe furnaces in terms of longevity? Right now I've got a 16 year old Heil h9mpd100j20c2 single stage high efficiency gas furnace and its acting up again. It has been eating replacement parts for years and the insides are rusted out from the evaporator coil raining down condensate all over the internals.

I want something that is like a modern Speed Queen Washer- crude, rude, reliable and with easy to obtain replacement parts. The rest is trivial to me.

 

[phillymatt53]

Chet, I wish I could help you there, but I've got a Crown boiler/radiator system.
Installed in 2002, 3 years before I moved into the house, it's doing just fine.
Crown's based in Philly by the way, and a popular choice here.

Your's is a central air system?
My one friend's got a Lennox system that he had put in back in 1999, and every year he has it checked out by a professional.
Never has any issues from what I've heard.

 

[DADoES]

Window units and gas space heaters seem the "crudest" choice available. It separates the two functions and eliminates the concern of evaporator condensate on the internals (of a heat exchanger?). Individual gas space heaters in each room also seem the most reliable for the heating function, without any complicated temperature control?

 

[Chetlaham]

Window units and gas space heaters seem the "crudest" choice available. It separates the two functions and eliminates the concern of evaporator condensate on the internals (of a heat exchanger?). Individual gas space heaters in each room also seem the most reliable for the heating function, without any complicated temperature control?

Ideally, a millivolt draft Furnace. Sadly I don't have a chimney, wish I did though. If I had the option I would take your idea though. With a dedicated through the wall sleeve for the ACs.

 

[combo52]

There are many good, hot air, gas furnaces, you’re generally best with a high-efficiency 90+2 pipe system with ECM fan motor, but it’s really impossible to recommend something because we have no idea where you live if you’re in South Florida get the cheapest thing you can if you’re somewhere where you actually need heat, I would go with my recommendation.

I have a 17-year-old American standard trane system. It’s been wonderful.

It’s also a good idea to take care of your equipment. Why did you let it keep leaking and ruin the furnace you should’ve been able to fix that.

John L

 

[Chetlaham]

Chet, I wish I could help you there, but I've got a Crown boiler/radiator system.
Installed in 2002, 3 years before I moved into the house, it's doing just fine.
Crown's based in Philly by the way, and a popular choice here.

Your's is a central air system?
My one friend's got a Lennox system that he had put in back in 1999, and every year he has it checked out by a professional.
Never has any issues from what I've heard.

Yes, central heat and cooling. No radiators or hot water. I had baseboard hot water in the early 2000s and it was nice. But forced hot air with an over sized gas furnace makes for decadent heating. I love oversized HVAC equipment. Contrary to what all the HVAC guys will tell you now. I despise the trend. As long as the exhaust PVC isn't yellowing its fine in my book.

 

[phillymatt53]

Yes, central heat and cooling. No radiators or hot water. I had baseboard hot water in the early 2000s and it was nice. But forced hot air with an over sized gas furnace makes for decadent heating. I love oversized HVAC equipment. Contrary to what all the HVAC guys will tell you now. I despise the trend. As long as the exhaust PVC isn't yellowing its fine in my book.

Another reason why I'm prone to liking boiler/radiator heat is...... it's silent.
Throughout the house, upstairs, downstairs, no annoying "whoosh" of air blowing and no "turbine" fan noise.
Plus.... no possibility of dust blowing from the vents, no filters to change.
In fact, the only sound I hear when the system's running is a very, very faint hum from the Taco circulation pump down on the boiler. - which uses a magnetic-coupled impeller.

Back in 2018, I upgraded the system with the Honeywell electronic ignition system, which means no more wasted gas keeping a pilot lit.
And I designed a temp sensor module on the hot water exit line which, when the system thermostat shuts off, the circulator pump stays on, circulating the residual hot water through the house until the water becomes luke warm.

I probably increased the boiler's efficiency level from the 80% originally, to maybe 90%.
Needless to say, my heating bill's not bad considering..... I like a warm house for my old bones. LOL!

 

[william8]

I'm with John, if you knew it was leaking condensate from the evaporator coil, why wasn't it fixed? It either has a clogged drain, or it was installed incorrectly. Since it's leaking at the rear, and the drain is at the front, I'd put money on incorrect installation.
I have a Trane 95+ installed in 2016, it has never leaked, or had any other issues. I inspect it annually for issues.

My last furnace was a Lennox 80%, worked great for 22+ years, and was still going when I replaced it, but my homes original 1975 exhaust stack had rotted out. Cost to replace all that double wall vent pipe through the roof, was MORE than the cost of a new furnace and adding air. Stick with the HE furnace type, PVC is cheap.

The installation is far more important than the brand, as your unit shows. And if the company that worked on it could never fix it...don't call them.

May even want to call someone else, and see if it really needs replacement. Most heat exchangers have a 20 year warranty, though yours would probably be denied do to the installation.

Not sure what you mean about oversized systems, they usually die an early death from insufficient airflow. The trend for decades has been an oversized system due to "rule of thumb" installs. Hire a company that will do a proper manual J measurement.

 

[Chetlaham]

Not sure what you mean about oversized systems, they usually die an early death from insufficient airflow. The trend for decades has been an oversized system due to "rule of thumb" installs. Hire a company that will do a proper manual J measurement.

ABSOLUTELY NOT. NEVER. MY BODY MY CHOICE. I WILL NEVER LET THE NORMANDY LANDINGS GO IN VEIN.

I DESPISE manual J sized systems. My AC is currently specked that way and it is awful. As have been some of my past properties. The system runs all the time when new just to stay at 74*F, register air is warmish, indoor temp goes up anytime I cook, run the dryer, leave the house ect and gets worse as the system ages.

Manual J assumes ideal scenarios, idea systems, ideal use and ideal structures. And that power interruptions and portable generator will never take place.

Cooling I want sized by a factor of two and heat by a factor of four.

So a home that requires a 2 ton AC unit will get a 4 ton and a home that requires 25,000 BTUs of heat on the coldest says will get a 100,000 BTU furnace.

It is a myth that an over sized heating system will die an early death. It is myth that an over sized AC will lead to cold clammy air. It is a myth that the evaporator will frost up or the heat exchanger will crack.

Nothing more than another energy saving ideological gimmick.

 

[Chetlaham]

Another reason why I'm prone to liking boiler/radiator heat is...... it's silent.
Throughout the house, upstairs, downstairs, no annoying "whoosh" of air blowing and no "turbine" fan noise.
Plus.... no possibility of dust blowing from the vents, no filters to change.
In fact, the only sound I hear when the system's running is a very, very faint hum from the Taco circulation pump down on the boiler. - which uses a magnetic-coupled impeller.

Back in 2018, I upgraded the system with the Honeywell electronic ignition system, which means no more wasted gas keeping a pilot lit.
And I designed a temp sensor module on the hot water exit line which, when the system thermostat shuts off, the circulator pump stays on, circulating the residual hot water through the house until the water becomes luke warm.

I probably increased the boiler's efficiency level from the 80% originally, to maybe 90%.
Needless to say, my heating bill's not bad considering..... I like a warm house for my old bones. LOL!

Not saying you're wrong but the way I see it is that convectors become clogged with dust over time. No smell when the heat comes on in the fall with forced air.

Forced hot air isn't drafty. With an correctly sized gas furnace hot airs comes quick, and it is very hot which makes for a luxurious experience. If I have my feet underneath the vent of my kitchen or bathroom sink I have to move my feet otherwise it becomes very painful. A blower off delay runs the fan for 90 second letting the heat exchanger cool. This delay can be adjusted if the air coming out becomes to cold during the cool down period.

 

[vacerator]

There are two manufacturers today for every furnace brand. Lenox, and the Carrier concern. Judging by our 2008 Lenox 95% plus 2 stage variable speed furnace, I say the inducer fan motor, etc, is better quality than the others. Only a minor chirp from it so fat and a drop of light oil on the exposed brass shaft bearing quiets it up all winter long. No other issues as yet. Our neighbors Bryant is newer and has already had two inducer motors replaced.

 

[Chetlaham]

There are two manufacturers today for every furnace brand. Lenox, and the Carrier concern. Judging by our 2008 Lenox 95% plus 2 stage variable speed furnace, I say the inducer fan motor, etc, is better quality than the others. Only a minor chirp from it so fat and a drop of light oil on the exposed brass shaft bearing quiets it up all winter long. No other issues as yet. Our neighbors Bryant is newer and has already had two inducer motors replaced.

Thats my biggest fear. Ending up with another unit that eats parts. It is even more confusing because for each brand there are various tiers and grades. Some good, some better some terrible some best. It is so hard to figure it out and I am already exhausted from just scratching the surface.

It is things like this that really make me long for a world where everyone was like myself. Each furnace would be profoundly over engineered and guaranteed to last 40+ years right out of the box without a single repair. Replacement parts would be cheap, plentiful and easy whenever needed.

Wouldn't be to difficult to pull off in all electric heat world where every furnace is of resistance coils but even that concept is so cheapened that 15 years without repair is a lucky outcome.

 

[vacerator]

Chet, our Lenox has the Fasco motor. I would try and buy one that has them. Mexico parts I think are better than China. In the late 90's to 2000's, my cousin the hvac guy told me Fasco motors from Mexico weren't the best, but times have changed. I have no idea what Lenox or other brands are using today.

 

[phillymatt53]

Chet, our Lenox has the Fasco motor. I would try and buy one that has them. Mexico parts I think are better than China. In the late 90's to 2000's, my cousin the hvac guy told me Fasco motors from Mexico weren't the best, but times have changed. I have no idea what Lenox or other brands are using today.

Fasco motors are used in a lot of products, including those bathroom ceiling ventilators.
The key to insuring long term reliability is to occasionally (yearly) check them for lubrication and add a few drops of 30 weight oil to the shaft bearing, if it's a sleeve bearing.
Because that end of the motor is prone to more rotational stress because the fan blades or squirrel cage are mounted there.
If an imbalance due to dust buildup on the fan blades accumulates, it increases vibration.

 

[wayupnorth]

I have a New Yorker oil fired boiler that handles both heat and hot water for my 2000 sq. ft. house. Its now just over 30 years since it was first installed and still runs fine. It has had some parts replaced over the years but the combustion chamber is still snow white, thanks to the power vent that purges all the combustion products outside. There is no natural gas here, so propane is the only other choice and propane is more costly than oil. I do have 2 -330 gallon oil tanks and one fill-up lasts me an entire year. Every fall I shop around for the best price on oil and did save 11 cents a gallon on this years fill-up. I hope I can keep that trusty boiler going and let the next person here worry about ever replacing it.

 

[philcobendixduo]

I've been very happy with my 2014 Bryant 96.5% single stage gas furnace and A/C unit.
It is a counterflow installation and I've had zero problems with it.

 

[william8]

ABSOLUTELY NOT. NEVER. MY BODY MY CHOICE. I WILL NEVER LET THE NORMANDY LANDINGS GO IN VEIN.

I DESPISE manual J sized systems. My AC is currently specked that way and it is awful. As have been some of my past properties. The system runs all the time when new just to stay at 74*F, register air is warmish, indoor temp goes up anytime I cook, run the dryer, leave the house ect and gets worse as the system ages.

If your system runs all the time, then it is NOT properly sized, or not charged correctly. We already know it wasn't installed properly, what makes you think it's sized properly? Mine runs about 4- 5 hours a day in the summer, on a 90-95 degree day, to keep the house at 69 degrees. Something isn't right, which is obvious from the pictures.

Stop with the "We fought WWII for appliance freedom " nonsense, please. It's embarrassing.

Manual J assumes ideal scenarios, idea systems, ideal use and ideal structures.

No, it takes everything into consideration, insulation, windows, sealing. The hottest expected days, and the coldest.

Cooling I want sized by a factor of two and heat by a factor of four.

So a home that requires a 2 ton AC unit will get a 4 ton and a home that requires 25,000 BTUs of heat on the coldest says will get a 100,000 BTU furnace.
That will cause

That will cause the house to cool faster, cycle more, and never remove the humidity.

It is a myth that an over sized heating system will die an early death. It is myth that an over sized AC will lead to cold clammy air. It is a myth that the evaporator will frost up or the heat exchanger will crack.It is a myth that an over sized heating system will die an early death. It is myth that an over sized AC will lead to cold clammy air. It is a myth that the evaporator will frost up or the heat exchanger will crack.

Yet your current system held up so well...Find a new HVAC company.

 

[william8]

There are two manufacturers today for every furnace brand. Lenox, and the Carrier concern. Judging by our 2008 Lenox 95% plus 2 stage variable speed furnace, I say the inducer fan motor, etc, is better quality than the others. Only a minor chirp from it so fat and a drop of light oil on the exposed brass shaft bearing quiets it up all winter long. No other issues as yet. Our neighbors Bryant is newer and has already had two inducer motors replaced.

There are more than two companies, yes they have consolidated a bit ,but still more than two manuacturers.

Daikin Industries: A Japanese company that is the world's largest HVAC manufacturer, owning brands like Goodman and Amana.

Carrier Global Corporation: A major U.S. company that owns brands such as Bryant, Payne, and Heil.

Midea Group: A Chinese company with a significant global presence.

Gree Electric Appliances Inc.: Another large Chinese manufacturer.

Johnson Controls: An American-Irish company that owns brands like York, Coleman, and Luxaire.

Lennox International Inc.: A prominent U.S. company.

Trane Technologies plc: A U.S. company that manufactures under the Trane and American Standard brands, among others.

Rheem Manufacturing Company: A U.S. company that also produces Ruud systems.

There are probably a couple more smaller companies.

 

[Chetlaham]

No, it takes everything into consideration, insulation, windows, sealing. The hottest expected days, and the coldest.

Right, under ideal situations and ideal equipment. The real world varies more than generalized or idealized assumptions cemented in a book derived upon the consensus of people not involved with any given property or piece of equipment.

That will cause the house to cool faster, cycle more, and never remove the humidity.

I prefer it that way

Yet your current system held up so well...Find a new HVAC company.

I will go for a different company.

Stop with the "We fought WWII for appliance freedom " nonsense, please. It's embarrassing.

Freedom, period. That means freedom to choose, freedom to sell and freedom to do business with ease based on discretion. Rule of thumb was a monster smash success for everyone.

 

[william8]

Right, under ideal situations and ideal equipment. The real world varies more than generalized or idealized assumptions cemented in a book derived upon the consensus of people not involved with any given property or piece of equipment.

It's not under ideal conditions. If you have no insulation, it takes that into consideration, or old poor quality windows, lot's of window area, or just an old house. Even which direction the house faces. None of those are ideal conditions. It a proven science. Do a little research.

And if you install a bigger system, you will need bigger ducts.

I prefer it that way

You like high humidity? That's what makes it clammy. What's the current Delta T?

Freedom, period. That means freedom to choose, freedom to sell and freedom to do business with ease based on discretion. Rule of thumb was a monster smash success for everyone.

More nonsense. That's not why we fought WWII.

 

[Chetlaham]

It's not under ideal conditions. If you have no insulation, it takes that into consideration, or old poor quality windows, lot's of window area, or just an old house. Even which direction the house faces. None of those are ideal conditions. It a proven science. Do a little research.

And each on of those will vary from home to home. Manual J has no way of knowing how many times a front door will open, how long a bath exhaust fan will run, whats cooking for lunhc, ect.

And there is the fact that a system sized to run near continuously on the hottest or coldest days has its own limitations. If there are rolling blackouts, I'd rather have that gas furnace be able to heat the home in 30 minutes vs 12 hours.

And if you install a bigger system, you will need bigger ducts.

Not by much. Right now my furnace is oversized 2-4x by class J, and the duct work is what most would consider "normal". There is no yellow of the exhaust pipe, so nothing is being pushed into the realm of premature failure.

You like high humidity? That's what makes it clammy. What's the current Delta T?

The humidity level is nowhere is high as its made out to be with a 2x oversized system.

More nonsense. That's not why we fought WWII.

We fought WWII to stop an ideology that was doing away with freedom, liberty, dignity and the pursuit of happiness. That includes a free open market and the right to choose.

Installers exercised their freedom to practice discretion and came up with rule of thumbs which worked near 100% of the time for the realistic conditions encountered. Sellers exercised their freedom of an open market to create products which worked in near 100% for those rule of thumb installations. Customer was happy, the installer was happy and the equipment seller was happy.

Today between regulations, laws and the "hey you were wrong all along"...

 

[william8]

And there is the fact that a system sized to run near continuously on the hottest or coldest days has its own limitations. If there are rolling blackouts, I'd rather have that gas furnace be able to heat the home in 30 minutes vs 12 hours.

I guess you missed where mine only runs 4-5 hours a day in the summer. And it was sized by manual J.
If you want comfort, improve your sealing, insulation, etc.

80% of home have undersized ducting. The rest of your post sounds like conspiracy theories. I don't engage in those.

Why would installers want to install undersized systems, that cost less, and make less profit? Just silly.

We fought WWII to stop an ideology that was doing away with freedom, liberty, dignity and the pursuit of happiness. That includes a free open market and the right to choose.

Please read a history book. We were fighting a dictator. Not for a free and open market.

 

[Chetlaham]

I guess you missed where mine only runs 4-5 hours a day in the summer. And it was sized by manual J.
If you want comfort, improve your sealing, insulation, etc.

80% of home have undersized ducting. The rest of your post sounds like conspiracy theories. I don't engage in those.

Why would installers want to install undersized systems, that cost less, and make less profit? Just silly.


Please read a history book. We were fighting a dictator. Not for a free and open market.

Even on the hottest days?

As I said, nothing indicates my duct work is undersized.

Please quote what you believe what I said sounds like a conspiracy. Because as far as I'm concerned your throwing out random terms in hopes of de-railing what I said.

We were fighting an ideology that forbid a free and open market.

 

[vacerator]

We are talking about gas fired forced air heating here, not gravity air nor oil, or hot water baseboard heat.
Climate being a factor for running time, and the colder weather states require better windows, attic and wall insulation. I have seen many furnace replacements and never different ductwork installed beyond the furnace output plenum for the new fit. Only when a room addition or a second floor requires new ducting.

 

[vacerator]

Chet, have you had your current furnace heat exchange inspected?? Is the rust from that?

 

[william8]

Even on the hottest days?

Yes, although it may run an hour longer over 100. My house has excellent insulation, improved windows, and complete air sealing.

As I said, nothing indicates my duct work is undersized.

It will be if you make the heater 4 times larger than it needs to be, and the return sure looks smaller than mine, which is 60k BTU. Have you measured static pressure? That's the only way you will know. And you never did state the Delta T of the current system.

Please quote what you believe what I said sounds like a conspiracy. Because as far as I'm concerned your throwing out random terms in hopes of de-railing what I said.

Nothing more than another energy saving ideological gimmick.

The real world varies more than generalized or idealized assumptions cemented in a book derived upon the consensus of people not involved with any given property or piece of equipment.

Today between regulations, laws and the "hey you were wrong all along"...

Is that enough? Another science denier...

We were fighting an ideology that forbid a free and open market.

What nonsense. That was the least of our concerns at the time.

Why aren't you fighting the current administrations ideology against a free and open market?

 

[william8]

We are talking about gas fired forced air heating here, not gravity air nor oil, or hot water baseboard heat.
Climate being a factor for running time, and the colder weather states require better windows, attic and wall insulation. I have seen many furnace replacements and never different ductwork installed beyond the furnace output plenum for the new fit. Only when a room addition or a second floor requires new ducting.

He wants to increase his BTU 4x, that would require bigger ductwork:

Cooling I want sized by a factor of two and heat by a factor of four.

Many houses could benefit from larger ductwork, but the cost on an existing structure is prohibitive.

 

[vacerator]

Ok Willem I understand. The variable speed blower wouldn't compensate?

 

[william8]

Chet, have you had your current furnace heat exchange inspected?? Is the rust from that?

Looks like it's coming down from the AC coil. The exchanger is in the bottom compartment. That's why I suggested he have it inspected. May not need a new furnace yet.

He also talks about "yellowing" PVC, so he doesn't understand the high efficiency furnaces do not have hot exhaust. That's why they can use PVC. Usually just around 100f.