time line question for dishwashers

[cehalstead]

When did the automatic dishwasher truly begin cleaning with no pre-rinsing? I know each one of the ones we had progressively got better, and the first one I can say actually washed dishes was my 1990 GE. However, there was a gap from 1973 to 1990...the other GE just wouldn't die, and I know that improvements were constantly made....

 

[westytoploader]

I believe that it all depends on the design of the machine. The last time I used my 1975 Whirlpool Imperial 540 (last November), I didn't pre-rinse anything, used the Super Scour cycle which heated the water, and everything came out clean. I would like to try it again, and it, along with my GE Portable washer, need to be used, but that involves a little "modification" to the new kitchen sink, unless I can wheel both in the bathroom...;-)

 

[appnut]

Well let's see, over the years of postings, I remember Tomturbomatic talking loading & runnning friends' Westinghouse Roll-out dishwasher with water temp boost; Tom's family got one of the first Whirlpools with the revolving spray arm design in about 1959 or 1960 that cleaned excellently. Whirlpools in general were very good cleaners in the 1960s. Our 1968 Waste King did very very well when I was able to put dirty dishes in the load when the mother wasn't looking; and our 1970 Rotorack, just like what Jetaction brought home, did an excellent job with scrambled egg and rice. Gansky & Jetcone have 1950-s KitchenAids that cleaned exceptionally well when loaded properly and had correct hot water supplied. The list goes on & on. Even my 1987 GE PotScrubber GSD1200 handles Bob loads without a care in thee world and pics here prove it. So now you see there have been various brands starting in the 1950s that did extremely well. Mind you, machines form the 1950s were designed to be run after every meal or every two meals. My GE can take off oatmeal cooked in the bowl after it's been sitting for up to a week (with Cascade Complete). And that brings up another point, detergents today perform MUCH BETTER than their elders of the 1950s & 1960s.

 

[maytagbear]

I think ONE of the keys

to dishwasher performance is the spray arm-pump design, rather than the impeller design.

Our first dishwasher was the midline Maytag belt-drive, and it was excellent.

However, as far as I can tell, the biggest improvement in dishwasher performance has to be enzymes in the detergent.

My current dishwasher is a lower level (though not totally BOL) GE, and it cleans very well.

Lawrence/Maytagbear

 

[deeptub]

"No prerinsing" has been a claim for literally over 40 years (see link).

I've never prerinsed things that I've put into KitchenAids as old as 1966.

Some friends have a GE Potscrubber from the very early 70's that does a marvelous job without prerinsing. It has a bypass microfilter in the back bottom of the tank.

On the other hand, another friend had a late 90s rock bottom of the line GE-made Kenmore and my sister had a late 90s very BOL Whirlpool. Neither of these machines would clean a load that I had loaded. Kenmore friend always prerinsed and my demo of how she didn't need to ended in embarassment. (SEE! SEE! I TOLD YOU!) My sister refused to give in to rinsing, so she often just ran hers twice.

I currently have two mid-70s KitchenAids, a KDS-17A (last single washarm) and a KDS-18 (first double washarm). I put all sorts of nastiness into them and they seldom miss. They might leave a burned-on particle now and then. The KDS-18s 104 minute Soak n' Scrub cycle (nearly 40 minutes of alternately soaking and washing added to the front end of the normal cycle) is especially terrific (maybe even overkill) with today's enzyme detergents. And it's still faster than the normal cycle on most new machines.

I think "no prerinse" machines have been around for many many years, but, especially in the past, often only at higher price points.

Pardon Our Interruption...

 

[tomturbomatic]

GE dishwashers made a radical leap in cleaning when they came out with the bow-tie stainless steel impeller. It cleaned better than the first GE wash arm machines which were way underpowered with big wash arm openings because of no filtration, but a pump driven by a 1750 rpm motor instead of KitchenAid's 3400 rpm motor with filtration. KitchenAid's washing improved greatly with the 15 series, along with capacity. It's true that the WP machines with the Gorman-Rupp pump washed very clean, but they were not dependable at all. Lots of service problems.

KitchenAid's original Soak cycle for heavy soil was intended for use with enzyme dishwasher cleaning agents, but just about the time the cycle came out, enzymes developed a terrible reputation. The laundry additives with enzymes were heavy on phosphates and, when not rinsed adquately or deactivated by high temperatures, were found to be residing in elastic portions of undergarments and eating away at people's midsections resulting a very bad rashes where you do not want to be seen scratching an itch. So the enzyme soak agents for dishwashing had to hide out until the energy saving movement brought us lower water heater settings and longer dishwasher cycles that heated the water as they washed on a 15 amp circuit so they washed a good deal longer than previous machines, except for the early Westinghouse machines with the guaranteed 140 degree wash from its water booster that heated the water as it washed. It could extend the wash, especially in the years before they had a detergent dispenser that was more than a round screen container about the size of a 1/4 cup measure, by as much as an hour because there was no pre wash or pre rinse to warm things up a bit. The heating element was around 750 watts so that the machine would operate on a 15 amp 120 volt circuit. The portion of the wash cycle where the heating delay took place was euphemistically called "power soak." The portable versions, which looked suspiciously like D&M machines in the late 50s and early 60s, did have an insulated double wall tub and insulated top to help hold the heat that was added to the water.

 

[deeptub]

Tom, I had noticed that the KD-16 manual suggests an enzyme product called Pan-Dandy for the soak cycle. I had wondered why such a thing had gone away. Leave it to humanity to universally shun enzymes because they were problematic in the laundry.

I liked KitchenAid's water heating AFTER they learned from their mistakes on the 19 series. Heat the first wash to 140 degress quickly with the (completely submerged) dual element energized at 1600 watts (or 1500 or whatever it was) and the pump off, then get on with the show. My parents' Superba 21, with the temperature at the tap around 125, finishes its normal cycle at right around 75 minutes. Of course once Whirlpool took over, they quickly cheapened the Custom 21 and Imperial 21 with a low wattage water/drying heater up out of the sump and a protracted wash, saving what by then they called SureTemp Water Heating for the Superba line. That also let them use a cheap plastic drying fan duct as well.

And speaking of cheapening--I'd like to know what a KitchenAid dishwasher actually costs to make these days. My sister got a new one a few months ago. I put one of her heavy cast-iron pots in the left front of the lower rack and watched the door twist as I did. That would NEVER happen on a 23-series and older model. Pity.

T.

 

[mikepaquette]

Ge Bowtie impeller Verses the Bakealite

I have been looking for a bowtie GE for years now. I had these while growing up & the bakealite ones I have now do not compare . Capacity or cleaning. I have seen the Forbiden cycle on the bakealite but would love to see the forbiden cycle of the GE Bowtie machine. I agree with Tom, BIG improvement with the bowtie impeller. Go figure when I was younger these GE with the bowtie impeller were everywhere. Now I cannot find one . Someday hopefully. Mike

 

[tomturbomatic]

Tom, the thing that got me about the 21 and 22 Su-Pu-Bas, aside from only one rinse after the wash, was that they wasted all of that time heating the water and then dashed it against cold dinnerware, reducing the temperature to around 100 degrees by the time the machine drained from the first wash. It should have circulated as it filled to pull what little heat might have been in the water, Then heated it for washing. Hobart must have been encouraging everyone at the plant to drink the Kool Aid after the 18 series. The 19s were insanity, unless you lived in a Florida house where the water pipes, both hot and cold run, uninsulated, through the concrete slab and the hot water is cold as soon as you shut it off.

 

[gadgetgary]

Bow Tie

Can you explain or show a picture of the GE Bowtie impellers? What year were they in production? Model #'s?
Do I have one in my GE2800?

Thanks,

Gary

 

[appnut]

Gary, you GSD2800 is a sppray-arm or wash-arm design, not an impeller. The bowtie impeller looked kinda like a metal bowtie that spun at 1800 rpms to throw water to wash. See my description above.