cehalstead
Well-known member
What is the ratio/formulas for using TSP with detergent? Should I use liquid or powder detergent with TSP?? Any other advice for using TSP with detergent would be greatly appreciated.
TSP/detergent ratio
- Thread starter cehalstead
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The amount to use depends on the hardness of your water and the soil level in the laundry load. You do not need it with liquid detergents because they buffer hard water with different chemicals and you won't need enough to worry about if you have a water softener. A good way to find out how much of it you need is to fill the washer and once it starts agitating, but before adding detergent or laundry, start with 1/4 cup of STPP to see how much it takes to make the water feel silky. That's a good estimate of how much you will need. Use less for smaller loads and less water and more for large loads with heavy soil. You are going to be very happy with the results STPP can bring to your laundry. Your washer will be happy too because STPP eliminates the buildup of film, mineral scale, scum in hidden places and oil rings at the water line.
I thought using TSP in the washer was a no-no...?
I use about 1 tsp of STPP in the Miele when I wash with grated Fels Naptha. Otherwise I don't use it because we have pretty good water in my area of Atlanta.
I use about 1 tsp of STPP in the Miele when I wash with grated Fels Naptha. Otherwise I don't use it because we have pretty good water in my area of Atlanta.
cehalstead
Well-known member
TSP/STPP
Maybe I am confusing two different products...can someone explain the difference?
Maybe I am confusing two different products...can someone explain the difference?
I'm sure Madame Laundress
will explain, when she shows up.
Lawrence/Maytagbear
will explain, when she shows up.
Lawrence/Maytagbear
Fels-Naptha
Peter -
What do you wash with grated Fels-Naptha? I have considered buying some, but have not done so yet. Do you use it only for delicates?
Peter -
What do you wash with grated Fels-Naptha? I have considered buying some, but have not done so yet. Do you use it only for delicates?
Trisodium phosphate is not as effective at sequestering calcium-magnesium salts as sodium tripolyphosphate. Water softening agents that combine with calcium and magnesium to form soluble complexes instead of insoluble precipitates are called sequestering agents. TSP has a higher concentration of phosphates than STPP, and a 1% solution has a pH of 11.95. Sodium tripolyphosphate contains less than half the phosphate of TSP and a 1% solution has a pH of 9.60. TSP is actually better at detergency than STPP. This is why it can be used by itself in an aqueous solution to remove soot from fireplace bricks. It has better emulsifying power (dispersing soil and holding it in suspension) than STPP. TSP rinses away slightly better than STPP but, being more alkaline is also more corrosive. Both are about average in "wetting" or penetrating power.
When I read the question, I thought it was about STPP, not TSP. Alkaline builders in detergents neutralize the acids present in soiled garments, raise the alkalinity of the washing solution to make it act efficiently, sequester the calcium-magnesium salts and actually saponify (turn into soap)some of the fats or fatty acids present in the soil of the load. Alkalies also help in the dispersion and suspension of certain types of oily soil. TSP with its higher alkalinity is better at saponification of oily soils than STPP. When phosphates were used to manufacture detergents, the greatest water-softening capacity per dollar of cost was with STPP. With all alkaline detergents, products such as silicates were added to protect the parts of the machine from various forms of damage.
So, if you are treating oily soil, TSP would be more effective than STPP. Make sure that the powder detergent you are using contains some silicate compound to protect the machine and always double the rinsing to remove the alkalinity from the machine and the clothes. Because of its alkalinity, I would not use TSP in the washer regularly and only in small amounts when I did. It would probably be safer to deal with smaller oily stains with TSP and detergent in a plastic pail of water as hot as the fabric can stand; just don't let it come in contact with your hands. You can double your chances of removing an oily stain by treating it with a product like the gel formula of Spray and Wash before washing or soaking it in the TSP/detergent solution.
This information came from the book Industrial Detergency, edited by William W. Niven, Jr., printed in 1955 and long out of print.
When I read the question, I thought it was about STPP, not TSP. Alkaline builders in detergents neutralize the acids present in soiled garments, raise the alkalinity of the washing solution to make it act efficiently, sequester the calcium-magnesium salts and actually saponify (turn into soap)some of the fats or fatty acids present in the soil of the load. Alkalies also help in the dispersion and suspension of certain types of oily soil. TSP with its higher alkalinity is better at saponification of oily soils than STPP. When phosphates were used to manufacture detergents, the greatest water-softening capacity per dollar of cost was with STPP. With all alkaline detergents, products such as silicates were added to protect the parts of the machine from various forms of damage.
So, if you are treating oily soil, TSP would be more effective than STPP. Make sure that the powder detergent you are using contains some silicate compound to protect the machine and always double the rinsing to remove the alkalinity from the machine and the clothes. Because of its alkalinity, I would not use TSP in the washer regularly and only in small amounts when I did. It would probably be safer to deal with smaller oily stains with TSP and detergent in a plastic pail of water as hot as the fabric can stand; just don't let it come in contact with your hands. You can double your chances of removing an oily stain by treating it with a product like the gel formula of Spray and Wash before washing or soaking it in the TSP/detergent solution.
This information came from the book Industrial Detergency, edited by William W. Niven, Jr., printed in 1955 and long out of print.
cehalstead
Well-known member
sorting out the confusion
THANKS!!!!!!
THANKS!!!!!!
Wouldn't use TSP for laundry, as it is highly caustic and quite harsh on fabrics. In fact my vintage laundry books (circa 1940's) advised women if possible to chose another means of softening water besides TSP (borax, washing soda on the low end, STPP/Calgon,Climatine, and other polyphosphates at the top), as TSP would ruin their hands.
TSP is not even considered a non-parcipating (sp?) water softener like STPP, it forms cloudy water just like washing soda and borax. This means hard water minerals are not sequestered and can end up on one's laundry and washing machine parts.
Using very harsh/alkaline laundry products can lead to a process called encrustation. This is where hard water minerals (mainly calcium) build up on textile fibers rendering them harsh feeling.
Alkaline substances are used in laundry to cause textile fibers to swell, thus releasing dirt/oils. However while swollen, calcium (found in some degree in all water), can enter the fibers and as the fibers return to their normal state, become trapped. This also is what leads to encrustation, and harsh feeling laundry. Sort of what one gets when doing laundry with heavy amounts of washing soda (another highly alkaline substance).
Laundry sours to an extent can remove some of the damage, but many top shelf commercial and even domestic laundry detergents avoid the problem all together by having a neutral pH or slighly acidic. Rather than harsh base chemicals to release soils from textiles, these detergents rely upon high quality surfactants and enzymes. This explains why one is seeing more and more liquid detergents, as they nearly all are pH neutral or acidic, (most rely on citric acid water softeners, and do not contain washing soda, a common substance in all powdered detergents).
Ph neutral detergents, when properly formulated will clean without harming textile fibers and since they are pH neutral, do not require a "sour" final rinse. This is why commercial laundries love liquid detergents as they save money by skipping an extra step. Also certain men's shirts are harmed by aggressive laundry sours. In fact if one reads the care label it will usually state either not to use a laundry sour, or what type should be used.
Powdered detergents can be made pH neutral, but it is a more complex process, reflected in the high cost of these top shelf detergents.
L.
TSP is not even considered a non-parcipating (sp?) water softener like STPP, it forms cloudy water just like washing soda and borax. This means hard water minerals are not sequestered and can end up on one's laundry and washing machine parts.
Using very harsh/alkaline laundry products can lead to a process called encrustation. This is where hard water minerals (mainly calcium) build up on textile fibers rendering them harsh feeling.
Alkaline substances are used in laundry to cause textile fibers to swell, thus releasing dirt/oils. However while swollen, calcium (found in some degree in all water), can enter the fibers and as the fibers return to their normal state, become trapped. This also is what leads to encrustation, and harsh feeling laundry. Sort of what one gets when doing laundry with heavy amounts of washing soda (another highly alkaline substance).
Laundry sours to an extent can remove some of the damage, but many top shelf commercial and even domestic laundry detergents avoid the problem all together by having a neutral pH or slighly acidic. Rather than harsh base chemicals to release soils from textiles, these detergents rely upon high quality surfactants and enzymes. This explains why one is seeing more and more liquid detergents, as they nearly all are pH neutral or acidic, (most rely on citric acid water softeners, and do not contain washing soda, a common substance in all powdered detergents).
Ph neutral detergents, when properly formulated will clean without harming textile fibers and since they are pH neutral, do not require a "sour" final rinse. This is why commercial laundries love liquid detergents as they save money by skipping an extra step. Also certain men's shirts are harmed by aggressive laundry sours. In fact if one reads the care label it will usually state either not to use a laundry sour, or what type should be used.
Powdered detergents can be made pH neutral, but it is a more complex process, reflected in the high cost of these top shelf detergents.
L.
The Laundress Returns!
Welcome back to posting!
Bryan,
I use grated Fels Naptha for general laundry, but usually only for whites and/or washing in hot water. It's just a switch for me, something different to wash in. It has a very neat smell while washing (tho' I can't really smell it in the Miele), and I love the smell of clean clothes after drying. I still haven't quite got the correct balance of STPP and soap, which usually means oversudsing, but since it is soap, the suds disappear quite quickly during the wash drain.
Welcome back to posting!
Bryan,
I use grated Fels Naptha for general laundry, but usually only for whites and/or washing in hot water. It's just a switch for me, something different to wash in. It has a very neat smell while washing (tho' I can't really smell it in the Miele), and I love the smell of clean clothes after drying. I still haven't quite got the correct balance of STPP and soap, which usually means oversudsing, but since it is soap, the suds disappear quite quickly during the wash drain.
cehalstead
Well-known member
many thanks
Thanks to all again for the explanation of TSP/STTP difference.....just wish we didn't have to "boost" our detergent and could have phosphates in them again....
Thanks to all again for the explanation of TSP/STTP difference.....just wish we didn't have to "boost" our detergent and could have phosphates in them again....
If one is using a top shelf detergetnt, "boosting" really is not required IMHO.
While I used to swear by adding STPP to all wash loads, especially whites, have found when using Tide, Persil, or the German commercial detergent, the results were excellent without STPP. Adding STPP made little or no difference, and only meant one could add less detergent. This last bit may not be the huge advantage it is claimed to be; modern detergents, especially top drawer ones are designed to provide a host of cleaning/bleaching/disenfecting properties but must achieve a certian ratio of product to water.Even in soft water, if too little product is used, then one will not receive the full benefit. This is especially true with detergents that contain activated bleaches and or colour protection/anti-dye redeposit chemicals.
Still am using up my stash of STPP, but mainly when doing "soap" washes with vintage Fels or Armour's soap, or for removing detergent residue from vintage linens. Also still have several canisters of Ecolab detergent which contains STPP. Would use it more often, but the scent puts me off, so probably will have them for a long, long, time.
Mind you living in NYS, we do have somewhat soft water, and our lifestyle does not tend to produce very mucky laundry on a regular basis. However even on the rare off chance I do have some really gross items to launder, Tide has not let me down yet.
While I used to swear by adding STPP to all wash loads, especially whites, have found when using Tide, Persil, or the German commercial detergent, the results were excellent without STPP. Adding STPP made little or no difference, and only meant one could add less detergent. This last bit may not be the huge advantage it is claimed to be; modern detergents, especially top drawer ones are designed to provide a host of cleaning/bleaching/disenfecting properties but must achieve a certian ratio of product to water.Even in soft water, if too little product is used, then one will not receive the full benefit. This is especially true with detergents that contain activated bleaches and or colour protection/anti-dye redeposit chemicals.
Still am using up my stash of STPP, but mainly when doing "soap" washes with vintage Fels or Armour's soap, or for removing detergent residue from vintage linens. Also still have several canisters of Ecolab detergent which contains STPP. Would use it more often, but the scent puts me off, so probably will have them for a long, long, time.
Mind you living in NYS, we do have somewhat soft water, and our lifestyle does not tend to produce very mucky laundry on a regular basis. However even on the rare off chance I do have some really gross items to launder, Tide has not let me down yet.
cehalstead
Well-known member
top shelf detergent
Laundress, I agree completely...you can't beat Tide.....
I have soft water here, and I do get dirty at work. In the summertime, the humidity here in the upper South can make for some "gunky" clothes, too. Guess I will stick with Tide...right now, I have original Liquid for colored, Tide with Bleach powder for my linens and towels, and original Powder for my table linens and jeans.
Laundress, I agree completely...you can't beat Tide.....
I have soft water here, and I do get dirty at work. In the summertime, the humidity here in the upper South can make for some "gunky" clothes, too. Guess I will stick with Tide...right now, I have original Liquid for colored, Tide with Bleach powder for my linens and towels, and original Powder for my table linens and jeans.
Did You Know?
P&G actually tests Tide detergents in water from all 50 United States, and in some cases local water supply as well? This is one of the reasons why for generations Tide has been the number one selling laundry detergent in the US.
It is a shame that unlike Persil, we cannot see what exactly is in Tide, am willing to bet they are more the same chemical wise than one thinks.
L.
P&G actually tests Tide detergents in water from all 50 United States, and in some cases local water supply as well? This is one of the reasons why for generations Tide has been the number one selling laundry detergent in the US.
It is a shame that unlike Persil, we cannot see what exactly is in Tide, am willing to bet they are more the same chemical wise than one thinks.
L.
LAUNDERESS! You're back! I was just about to send the virtual posse out to find you.
stpp
I use stpp in my hospital laundry it help keep the whites white and makes the bleach work better it is great for getting blood out too. We use half cup on 25 lb loads and full cup on 75 and 100 lb loads. It is very cheap and we use about half the normal amount of detergent when we use it ... Mac
I use stpp in my hospital laundry it help keep the whites white and makes the bleach work better it is great for getting blood out too. We use half cup on 25 lb loads and full cup on 75 and 100 lb loads. It is very cheap and we use about half the normal amount of detergent when we use it ... Mac
