Type of Heat?

[NYCWriter]

Regardless ...

... of your "understanding" of HVAC, you do not understand my building.

Again, steam heat is the most cost-effective for my -- and most other prewars -- in New York City.

Otherwise, obviously, we wouldn't still be using it.

 

[rapunzel]

Actually, Manhattans district heating system is quite something. It's over a hundred years old and not only provides steam for heating and cooling, but the plants that produce the steam also generate electricity. In terms of pollution and energy efficiency it is actually a very good system and not wasteful at all.

It's so interesting to read about the different approaches to heating. As I mentioned before, in many European homes every hot water radiator has a functional thermostatic control valve, which is clearly not always the case in the US. What NYCwriter says makes sense. The steam is in the system regardless of whether or not someone can control the amount of hot steam going through an individual radiator. The amount of steam that flows through the radiator pipes of a building is not going to effect heating costs for individual consumers nor makes it any difference to the efficiency of the steam plant itself. This leads me to think that most European apartments and houses use hot water heating. Unlike Manhattan, European consumers are charged according to how much heat they use with each radiator in their houses or units. Although, pricing and usage patterns would depend on whether or not heat for an apartment building comes from a distant heating plant or is generated by an oil or gas furnace inside the building.

In many parts of Germany they use trash to generate steam for district heat and electricity generation as well. These trash burning plants have very efficient filtration systems built into their stacks to reduce pollution to negligible levels and have done so since the 1970s. Just like Manhattan, the steam is piped to thousands of consumers and it's a great system. Though, I did not like how heat output for all radiators in an apartment building was controlled somewhere else whereby from midnight until the early morning hours the water supply for heating was cooler then during the day and evenings.

During the sixties I remember the smell of burning coal in winter. Lots of older apartment buildings did not have central heating systems and people still used coal burning stoves in their apartments for heat. I still remember how warm and toasty our apartment was, but also how labor intensive to clean and maintain as well.

 

[dj-gabriele]

CIT: "The amount of steam that flows through the radiator pipes of a building is not going to effect heating costs for individual consumers nor makes it any difference to the efficiency of the steam plant itself."

So they invented a system that breaks the laws of physics?!?! Come on!
If you need to produce that additional heating somewhere and that automatically translate into a higher cost.
Would you think that a radiator (or any system) giving off 1 kW of heating power needs the same energy (ant thus circulating steam) of one giving off 1,5 kW?!?

As far as district heating is concerned, I can tell you that it is used here too, most often associated with co-generation in many garbage burning plants and as said it's tightly regulated to limit polluting emissions.
But it's far from being as efficient as a heat source as a local condensing boiler: this is because hot water generation combined with electricity generation is on the 80% range of efficiency compared to over 100% with a domestic heater.
That's why pure district heating is not used anymore!
It only thrives in those realities where it also serves other purposes (burning of waste and electricity generation), to put the waste heat to good use.

 

[NYCWriter]

"It only thrives in those realities where it also serves other purposes (burning of waste and electricity generation), to put the waste heat to good use. "

Or if it's the most economical.

 

[dj-gabriele]

As I said with the "modern" developments in HVAC it's not the most economical by any means, sure it was before the advent of modern heating systems (say before the first energy crisis) ...but it would be a boring world if everybody thought the same way

 

[dj-gabriele]

Now, I don't want to hijack the thread and I must say that I find steam heating fascinating as it's a swan dive to a time that I couldn't probably even imagine... let's get back to the original scope of the thread!

I must say that my favourite type of heating is forced air given that there is an automatic heat recovery system, the incoming air temperature is low and that the volume of moved air is small compared to the size of the room.
Sadly (or luckily, you're the judge) of this can only be achieved in a very well insulated building (say European energy class B/C or more).
But you have a totally concealed system (no eyesores whatsoever!) that is fast at warming the house and keeps the air clean with its system of filters and air exchanger!

Given that this can only be obtained in a new or totally restored building my other favourite system is the classic radiator but run at a "low" temperature, around 60°C or less, limiting the air (and dust) movement, no scalding risk and lovely comfort when getting back home putting your cold hands over the warm elements!
Moulded aluminium or steel elements rule in a classy building, almost any designer shape is possible to fit with the furniture and decorations!

 

[passatdoc]

@sudsmaster

my December bill last year was 35 therms. This year, 19 therms. Per the "average temperature" on the bill summary, it was comparably cold both Decembers (this year our morning lows are in the 30s), though last year's December bill covered 35 days, this year's covers only 30 (they adjusted the billing cycle end date during the past year). There is a roughly $6 flat distribution charge. Last year's December bill was $47, this year's $19. Subtracting distribution charges, usage was $41 vs. $13. $41 should be adjusted down by 20% because it was a longer billing cycle, so say $33. I can't see therms on the bill history, only dollar, and it's possible that last year went past tier 1 allotment and was partly billed at the higher tier 2 rate. But it is what it is, gas bills (if not therms) has fallen in half in roughly comparable weather.

I think the old windows were very leaky, perhaps that's what was fixed with the new windows. However, on the day in Sept that they were installed, it was 92 F outside and not surprisingly the house became very warm that day with no windows. After it got dark and it cooled off outside, I opened all the new windows to let in cool air, closing them in the morning. The first post-install day was equally hot outside, but inside temp never went above 72 F---whereas normally weather this warm would have led to inside temps of 78-80 F....never ever would the house have held at 72 F with the old windows (I have no A/C and rely on fans).

 

[foraloysius]

My ideal heating system would be underfloor heating. No radiators to keep clean and no moving of air as much as with a forced air system. Because of my asthma I hate forced air. There is always something wrong with it. Bad filters, dusty pipes, drafts, moving of dust etc. etc.

 

[davey7]

Steam Heat

I've been getting a chuckle out of the steam heat discussion. It's actually quite efficient (90 some %) and doesn't require pumps (at least in smaller systems) as a hot water system would. It really should be even throughout buildings with venting (or traps, if a two pipe system) adjusted to give even temperatures throughout. Some higher end - vapor specifically - systems can have control via valves as hot water does (TRV's on steam just mean the on/off is adjustable rather than being modulating). Keep in mind that our temperatures are more extreme than most of Europe and in the heartland we can have massive temperature drops which steam handles well. District heating is pretty much unknown/non-existent outside of NYC and medical/corporate/academic campuses in the US. There were once many hot water district systems, but most of them are long gone (Oak Park, Illinois, for one, had such a system, FLW's home and studio was connected at one time I believe).

 

[dj-gabriele]

If you put it that way even hot water systems can avoid the use of pumps and most systems till the 50/60s were designed that way.
Now they all have circulation pumps simply because they can be made much more efficient with improved flow (lower temperatures) and thinner piping (less water, hence thermal inertia) and you can position the boiler anywhere in the building and not necessarily in the basement.

Also regarding efficiency I'd be delighted to expand my knowledge, will you please show me which steam boilers have efficiencies in the high 90% and how is the system arranged? Thanks! I just checked some makers to make sure and they only have systems with 80-82% efficiency at best (Lennox, Crown, Slant/Fin, Peerless)

 

[sudsmaster]

Reminds me... my mom moved into a nice little apartment in SF a few decades back. When she moved in, it had steam heat - a radiator in the living room and one in her bedroom. Worked very well for her, even though it was on the 1st floor. The heat was included in the rent.

Then rent control came along. Then the furnace/boiler "broke down". The landlord responded by removing the steam heat system and putting in separate gas fueled room heaters for each apartment. Only one problem. The heater in my mom's apartment wasn't in the bedroom, it wasn't in the living room, it was in the entrance hall that was considerably removed from both, closest to the kitchen. Needless to say, it didn't work worth a damn, she had to stand next to the damn thing to get warm. Plus, she got socked with the monthly bill for the gas.

Why they didn't put the heater in the bedroom, I'll never know. That would have made the most sense. The landlord did other things to cut costs - like remove all the fuse boxes in each apartment and instead have a single circuit breaker at the building service entrance - one 40 amp breaker for her whole apartment. I doubt very much it would have prevented a wiring fire, especially since the apartment wiring was still knob and tube, but somehow he got away with it. The apartment fuse box was simply bypassed with twist on connectors. I would have done something about it, but I didn't discover it until she was moving out to an assisted living facility. Another tenant implored me not to report it because the landlord would use the cost of any fix as an excuse to raise the rents. But it couldn't have been up to code.

 

[rapunzel]

Gas heaters in bedrooms

Probably not allowed. Was that gas heater flued to the outside? Or did the fumes discharge into the hallway?

I have two unflued gas heaters in the main living area. They work well, but you have to keep a couple of windows slightly opened for fresh air to circulate. There is residue from burning off the gas which is most noticable on my windows. It's like a thin greasy film. On very cold days I may have to turn up the thermostat and after a while that does affect air quality to the point where I might come down with a headache if forget to allow sufficient amounts of fresh air in.

What town in Alsaka put in district heating during the 1800s that even included the town's streets and sidewalks to keep them snow and ice free?[this post was last edited: 1/2/2014-18:41]

 

[wayupnorth]

All I care about is I have heat right now. It is -11 right now outside here and I am less than 20 miles as the crow flies to the Atlantic Ocean. Big snow has not hit us here YET but is causing a big mess in Southern New England. This morning at the end of US Route 1 in Northern Maine it was -47 Before the wind chill. Fortunately, I was not one of the 100,000 plus homes that lost power due to last weeks ice storm.

 

[NYCWriter]

Again ...

"As I said with the "modern" developments in HVAC it's not the most economical by any means, sure it was before the advent of modern heating systems (say before the first energy crisis) ...but it would be a boring world if everybody thought the same way "

Steam heat IS the most economical if it means the alternative is to spend $5 million to switch to an entirely new HVAC system.

Spending $5 million just to save a few thousand a year on the heating bill would be absolutely asinine.

Which is precisely why so many buildings in NYC continue to stick with their "antiquated" steam heating systems.

 

[moparwash]

I've got....

ssssssssss....Steam Heat!

 

[DADoES]

 
<blockquote>Why they didn't put the heater in the bedroom, I'll never know.</blockquote> As Olav said, open-flame gas heaters likely were against code at that point.  My grandmother had that situation when her gas plumbing had to be rebuilt some years ago.  Gas space heaters were no longer allowed in bedrooms or bathrooms so the lines to those points had to be capped.  The only location she could have a heater was the kitchen, which is at the full-opposite side of the house from the two bedrooms.  We got around it by installing a window unit with heat (for supplementing when necessary), which also had to go in the kitchen, and ran the fan on it to blow the gas heat to the bedrooms.  The house is small so the workaround was quite effective.

 

[foraloysius]

Gas heaters

Overhere gas heaters with a dual pipe have been popular for a very long time. They have been around here since the sixties (or longer, but I don't remember that...). They are very adequate for heating bedrooms in houses that don't have central heating.

 

[foraloysius]

This is how they vent.

 

[beekeyknee]

Since this thread is still going, which I didn't expect, I'll response to Launderesse's reply way up top. When I was in college I was living in an old dormitory building that had bangin' pipes. I complained and the super came and took the vent off the side of the radiator, placed a five gallon plastic bucket beside it and said if water starts to come out I was to catch it in the bucket.

I was lying in bed and all of a sudden boiling water shot out the side of that radiator and hit the wall. I ran over, grabbed the bucket and proceeded to catch the water. I had left my door open and the super went down the hall. The bucket was filling extremely fast and I began to scream repeatedly for help. He and his assistant came running and turned off the valve. They were laughing because I was screaming so loud.

Looking back on it now I find it amusing but also frightening. I could have been badly burned. Funny; I haven't thought of that in years.

 

[retro-man]

I live in Boston also part time and I am on the 9th floor. I have forced hot air heating, but it is off from a central hot water system. The building was constructed in 1986. The main boiler is on the roof and hot water is run through each unit to an air exchanger. There is a thermostat is the living room which controls the blower. The hot water is constantly circulated through out the building 24/7. As soon as your turn it up the blower starts and instant heat. The same system is used in summer for A/C. There is a tower on the roof for cooling the water that is again circulated 24/7 through the building. It is quite efficient system all year round. Heat and A/C is included in the condo fees. This type of system allows tenants individual comfort as they please. We open windows a lot on sunny days because of the amount of heat the sun generates. I am on the southwest side of the building so I get a lot of solar gains.
Jon