DirectDriveDave
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Central air hydronic. (I think that's the correct term)
Type of Heat?
- Thread starter beekeyknee
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norgeway
Well-known member
During the 80s
I worked for a heating contractor, I serviced oil and gas units of all types,the furnaces made today do use less fuel, but when you factor in replacing them every 10 years or so, its not such a deal, for instance, in my hometown there are many Waterbury oil furnaces from the 50s still running, I used to service a furnace in a Church that was installed in 1947....a York, oil furnace, and its still running, as for me, I like hot water baseboard heat with a gas boiler, oil is good, but its so high now its rediculous, and I would much rather have a gas furnace with a cast iron burner and pilot light than this stuff made today, yeah, it burns a little more gas but you have virtually no service calls, I know of a Janitrol in Lenoir that was put in in 1960, and other than a fan belt has never had a screw turned on it, and the pilot light has never been out!
I worked for a heating contractor, I serviced oil and gas units of all types,the furnaces made today do use less fuel, but when you factor in replacing them every 10 years or so, its not such a deal, for instance, in my hometown there are many Waterbury oil furnaces from the 50s still running, I used to service a furnace in a Church that was installed in 1947....a York, oil furnace, and its still running, as for me, I like hot water baseboard heat with a gas boiler, oil is good, but its so high now its rediculous, and I would much rather have a gas furnace with a cast iron burner and pilot light than this stuff made today, yeah, it burns a little more gas but you have virtually no service calls, I know of a Janitrol in Lenoir that was put in in 1960, and other than a fan belt has never had a screw turned on it, and the pilot light has never been out!
No One Could Have Predicted
Shale gas would have such an effect on NG prices. It is so dirt cheap today compared with oil that many who had been holding off pulling the trigger are converting to gas.
Here in NYC at least for older and many new apartment buildings it is steam heat all the way. You find many older buildings still have their old coal fired boilers, just that the burners and whatnot have been changed over to either oil or natural gas. It is interesting to peek into basement windows of buildings on Park Avenue and such to see those massive boilers with beautiful detailing on the heavy doors that used to open and close for coal. Someone is charged with keeping those units spit and polished because most every one shines.
Grew up with forced air and hated it as it is too dry and blows dust all over. Much prefer steam heat. Mind you the system has to be maintained well or you get knocking, clanking, rusty water pouring all over and so forth.
Problem many older buildings have especially large apartment is that over the years as the structure settles the radiators can shift slightly as well. This results in things going out of whack IIRC.
The other worry for all older homes with steam/hot water heating is that back in the day heating contractors tended to oversize boilers to compensate for "drafty" buildings. If the place has a modern insulation job along with sealing of cracks and new windows (in short making the place air tight), you can find the heating system is just too powerful. IIRC this also happens when a new boiler must be purchased as replacement or as part of a building renovation.
Shale gas would have such an effect on NG prices. It is so dirt cheap today compared with oil that many who had been holding off pulling the trigger are converting to gas.
Here in NYC at least for older and many new apartment buildings it is steam heat all the way. You find many older buildings still have their old coal fired boilers, just that the burners and whatnot have been changed over to either oil or natural gas. It is interesting to peek into basement windows of buildings on Park Avenue and such to see those massive boilers with beautiful detailing on the heavy doors that used to open and close for coal. Someone is charged with keeping those units spit and polished because most every one shines.
Grew up with forced air and hated it as it is too dry and blows dust all over. Much prefer steam heat. Mind you the system has to be maintained well or you get knocking, clanking, rusty water pouring all over and so forth.
Problem many older buildings have especially large apartment is that over the years as the structure settles the radiators can shift slightly as well. This results in things going out of whack IIRC.
The other worry for all older homes with steam/hot water heating is that back in the day heating contractors tended to oversize boilers to compensate for "drafty" buildings. If the place has a modern insulation job along with sealing of cracks and new windows (in short making the place air tight), you can find the heating system is just too powerful. IIRC this also happens when a new boiler must be purchased as replacement or as part of a building renovation.
Oh yes,
NYC recently banned buildings from burning the most nasty grades of heating oil (basically bunker fuel)
NYC recently banned buildings from burning the most nasty grades of heating oil (basically bunker fuel)
<blockquote>Grew up with forced air and hated it as it is too dry ...</blockquote> Heat pumps are forced-air systems but are not so drying. I don't get static shocks from door knobs, etc.
Dry Indoor Air From Forced Heating
At least with radiators you can place bowls or pots of water on top to release vapor, not so with forced air. Had terrible winter dry skin growing up because of that darned forced dry air heating. Then there was the noise each time the system revved up.
Am told today's forced air systems are much better. They can be equipped with all manner and sorts of filters and you can even add a humidifier. Indeed with modern thermostats you can control not only the desired temperature but relative humidity of indoor air. Thermostat will then control heating and or even the AC, along with the humidifier to get things were you want.
Awhile ago there seemed to be a lot of noise about in floor radiant heat with copper or PVC tubing. You couldn't get away from a home improvement show or what not without some homeowner or contractor from Maine to PA raving about such systems. Don't seem to hear much about them today, maybe because the hype has died down and they have become a common thing.
At least with radiators you can place bowls or pots of water on top to release vapor, not so with forced air. Had terrible winter dry skin growing up because of that darned forced dry air heating. Then there was the noise each time the system revved up.
Am told today's forced air systems are much better. They can be equipped with all manner and sorts of filters and you can even add a humidifier. Indeed with modern thermostats you can control not only the desired temperature but relative humidity of indoor air. Thermostat will then control heating and or even the AC, along with the humidifier to get things were you want.
Awhile ago there seemed to be a lot of noise about in floor radiant heat with copper or PVC tubing. You couldn't get away from a home improvement show or what not without some homeowner or contractor from Maine to PA raving about such systems. Don't seem to hear much about them today, maybe because the hype has died down and they have become a common thing.
Forced air, oil fired, very old furnace (30years) located in the crawlspace under the house. Terribly inefficient and sooo expensive to run. $250 a month on average and that's keeping the house at 61 with an occasional splurge to 63. Space heaters in the rooms we use the most so its not all bad. Defintaley a new furnace is in the plans for this year. Its really time.
My "ex-house" had the best of both worlds. Gas fired hot water heat with recessed radiators in the walls under the windows and seperate central air mounted in the attic. Damn, I miss that house. The ex, not so much, but I sure do miss that house.
My "ex-house" had the best of both worlds. Gas fired hot water heat with recessed radiators in the walls under the windows and seperate central air mounted in the attic. Damn, I miss that house. The ex, not so much, but I sure do miss that house.
I know where you are coming from Laundress. I also grew up with forced air heat with a converted to oil furnace from coal. It was so dry, walking across a room with a rug and touching anything gave you a shock. My first apartment had hot water radiators that were wonderful. Oil is still expensive but significantly less than gas at $3.44/gal. Natural gas pipeline is less than 7 miles away from me but I will never see that equivilent of natural @ $1.79 vs. 3.89 for propane. Not enough people here, just like cable.
Near Me, 'Round Here:
Seems like it's always NAT. GAS, though there have been truck-delivered oil firing the furnace, via. a big tank beside the furnace (or outside of one house in the back yard, which likely about 10-15-years-ago has probably long-disappeared!)
-- Dave
Seems like it's always NAT. GAS, though there have been truck-delivered oil firing the furnace, via. a big tank beside the furnace (or outside of one house in the back yard, which likely about 10-15-years-ago has probably long-disappeared!)
-- Dave
Some pundits are already predicting that the shale gas boom won't last and that NG prices will skyrocket so people shouldn't convert from oil. Meanwhile the USA has so much of the stuff we're running out of places to store.
This boom in NG is killing coal. Read in the WSJ last week many coal towns in KY and elsewhere are in dire straits as mines close or drastically scale back production. Power plants are switching to NG or closing their coal burning operations because electric from NG atm is so much cheaper they cannot compete. Then there are all those pesky new regulations from the Obama administration regarding coal. [this post was last edited: 12/7/2013-01:45]
This boom in NG is killing coal. Read in the WSJ last week many coal towns in KY and elsewhere are in dire straits as mines close or drastically scale back production. Power plants are switching to NG or closing their coal burning operations because electric from NG atm is so much cheaper they cannot compete. Then there are all those pesky new regulations from the Obama administration regarding coal. [this post was last edited: 12/7/2013-01:45]
I have a two stage Trane XV90, Nat gas furnace., with a Honeywell VisionPro IAQ stat. House is very comfy since the change out from a oversized '69 Chrysler AirTemp.
The old furnace was way oversized, and heat was very uneven from a blast of heat, and short run cycle.
Now it's -2˚f, and it's running a steady 1st stage. The IAQ stat controls the humidifier, fresh air intake into the house.
The BIGGEST mistake people do with adding a programable t-stat, mostly on the Honeywell lines, they don't read all the the pages in the book.. If the t-stat isn't set up for hot water heat or high effe forced air, they don't offer the comfort.
My dream system is hot water heat Geo system w/ infloor heat.
The old furnace was way oversized, and heat was very uneven from a blast of heat, and short run cycle.
Now it's -2˚f, and it's running a steady 1st stage. The IAQ stat controls the humidifier, fresh air intake into the house.
The BIGGEST mistake people do with adding a programable t-stat, mostly on the Honeywell lines, they don't read all the the pages in the book.. If the t-stat isn't set up for hot water heat or high effe forced air, they don't offer the comfort.
My dream system is hot water heat Geo system w/ infloor heat.
Mayguy your system sounds much like mine. I think for me the key is CAC- continuous air circulation. The air is circulated so the temp in the house is totally even, I keep the humidity at 50%, with the CAC the humidifier runs when needed. Since my space was limited the humidifier had to be mounted in the cold air return,and as such I have to use hot water for the humidifier since cold would not generate enough moisture.
Much the same as you we had a humongous over-sized furnace. The house is large 3500+sq ft and the first furnace was undersized. We replaced it with a 150,000btu monster that heated up too fast and then cooled down almost as quickly. Had a very good company come out and properly size the unit, dual stage 80,000btu unit. It's rare for the second stage to kick in, so the system sips gas most of the time.
If anyone is considering a new furnace I very much recommend finding a reputable company to come out and do a heat loss analysis and get the right equipment.
Much the same as you we had a humongous over-sized furnace. The house is large 3500+sq ft and the first furnace was undersized. We replaced it with a 150,000btu monster that heated up too fast and then cooled down almost as quickly. Had a very good company come out and properly size the unit, dual stage 80,000btu unit. It's rare for the second stage to kick in, so the system sips gas most of the time.
If anyone is considering a new furnace I very much recommend finding a reputable company to come out and do a heat loss analysis and get the right equipment.
Sizing inportant! The old one was about 115,000 BTU, and this one is at 60k.. 40k for 1st stage. Bigger isn't always better!
I had a Manual J done, and the results came back to about 50k furnace, but 60k was the only options.
I had a Manual J done, and the results came back to about 50k furnace, but 60k was the only options.
I've got a combination of a 1989 Trane XL Gas furnace -- the 90 means its 90% efficient, I understand -- and electric radiant heat in the concrete basement floor.
As Tim (wayupnorth) says, the in-floor radiant heat isn't great for responding to temp swings. It takes hours, in fact, when starting from cold (first it has to heat up all that concrete!) It's great once it gets going, though it uses 3300 watts just to heat part of the house -- yikes.
The furnace is so old the HVAC guy who does tuneups is always applying pressure to replace it. I can't see the cost benefit, though. You can get a furnace that's more than 90% efficient now, but only at a huge initial cost. As long as this one is working and you can get parts for it....
As Tim (wayupnorth) says, the in-floor radiant heat isn't great for responding to temp swings. It takes hours, in fact, when starting from cold (first it has to heat up all that concrete!) It's great once it gets going, though it uses 3300 watts just to heat part of the house -- yikes.
The furnace is so old the HVAC guy who does tuneups is always applying pressure to replace it. I can't see the cost benefit, though. You can get a furnace that's more than 90% efficient now, but only at a huge initial cost. As long as this one is working and you can get parts for it....
@launderess: The coal bust in eastern Kentucky is truly sad for the people involved. I spent a lot of time in Harlan, Ky. until recently and it is as bad there as the WSJ article says.
There are a combination of factors involved.... In addition to shale gas, the fact is most of the best and easiest coal has already been mined, and what's left is deep and/or in narrow seams that makes the miners work on hands and knees in many cases.
Eastern Ky. coal used to be in high demand because of its relatively low sulfur content, but as power plant emissions regulations have grown tighter, utilities have been forced to install expensive scrubbers at most plants regardless. Having the scrubbers, ironically, means they can burn much higher sulfur coal from the Illinois Basin and still put out fewer emissions than before.
The killer has been that the price of Eastern bituminous coal has stayed stubbornly high for years at around $75/ton, as I recall, and Wyoming coal can be delivered to the southeast for much less. TVA has announced they will not be buying any more Appalachian coal for this reason.
It wouldn't be surprising that once the natgas industry has everyone on the hook, the price will shoot up. It's happened before.
There are a combination of factors involved.... In addition to shale gas, the fact is most of the best and easiest coal has already been mined, and what's left is deep and/or in narrow seams that makes the miners work on hands and knees in many cases.
Eastern Ky. coal used to be in high demand because of its relatively low sulfur content, but as power plant emissions regulations have grown tighter, utilities have been forced to install expensive scrubbers at most plants regardless. Having the scrubbers, ironically, means they can burn much higher sulfur coal from the Illinois Basin and still put out fewer emissions than before.
The killer has been that the price of Eastern bituminous coal has stayed stubbornly high for years at around $75/ton, as I recall, and Wyoming coal can be delivered to the southeast for much less. TVA has announced they will not be buying any more Appalachian coal for this reason.
It wouldn't be surprising that once the natgas industry has everyone on the hook, the price will shoot up. It's happened before.
The house here is using a 100,000 BTU input American Standard natural gas boiler that is original to the home from 1965. Home has 3 levels with a zone for each floor, radiation is all from AS baseboard units. There is no dynamic zone control, only static balancing valves. Years ago my brother Jeff added a water temp setback control to vary the system temperature based on outdoor temperature.
A couple years ago I added a two piece Honeywell IAQ programmable thermostat. I had a Honeywell Chronotherm III that was many years old but it started to act flakey, short cycling the heat calls at times. I chose the IAQ as it made it easy to interconnect the separate air handler for the central cooling system.
One rub with this house is that it has inadequate baseboard area, ideally there should be 40-50% more. To keep the house at temp on the coldest and most windy days the water temperature runs as high as 220F. Not sure what I'll have to do when I transition to a high efficiency boiler, since they can't get nearly as hot. Of course the high boiler temperature just means the flue losses are ridiculous.
Overall I really like the hot water heat, its quiet, even and never drafty. It is pretty slow at temp changes but it still pays to setback at night. I have a small 12v inverter and a 24ah AGM battery that could run the 1/24 hp circulator pump and the low voltage control circuit for hours. Its a lot easier then trying to start and run a forced air blower. So far there have been no significant winter power outages so its never been an issue. The downsides with hot water are the need for a separate cooling system and no air filtering or central humidification.
A couple years ago I added a two piece Honeywell IAQ programmable thermostat. I had a Honeywell Chronotherm III that was many years old but it started to act flakey, short cycling the heat calls at times. I chose the IAQ as it made it easy to interconnect the separate air handler for the central cooling system.
One rub with this house is that it has inadequate baseboard area, ideally there should be 40-50% more. To keep the house at temp on the coldest and most windy days the water temperature runs as high as 220F. Not sure what I'll have to do when I transition to a high efficiency boiler, since they can't get nearly as hot. Of course the high boiler temperature just means the flue losses are ridiculous.
Overall I really like the hot water heat, its quiet, even and never drafty. It is pretty slow at temp changes but it still pays to setback at night. I have a small 12v inverter and a 24ah AGM battery that could run the 1/24 hp circulator pump and the low voltage control circuit for hours. Its a lot easier then trying to start and run a forced air blower. So far there have been no significant winter power outages so its never been an issue. The downsides with hot water are the need for a separate cooling system and no air filtering or central humidification.
Heat choices most of the time you DON'T have the heat or cooling source you would like-often have to take what comes with the house or building.Right now have a BOL Lennox HVAC system. spring summer-GREAT as an AC.But during the winter-LOUSY as a heater-the Heat pump I have is inefficent.Would rather have gas-but too costly to put in at this time.So I live with the Heat pump and a couple of Heat Smart portable heaters-those work well.I can throttle back the heat pump.When it is cold--below freezing the unit is too inefficeint to use.But cope with it anyway.It is serviced yearly.And of course change filters every month.
Most homes in this area use gas for heating and most don't have central air. The older homes have in-floor or in-wall gas room heaters. The more modern homes have central forced air.
My home is no exception: forced air gas heat. It has some advantages: relatively cheap heating fuel (at least, currently), relatively efficient (depending on how air tight and insulated the ducting is, and how efficient the furnace is). It's actually an upgrade from my previous residence, which had one downstairs wall gas heater for the entire two story house. Yes, it was chilly in most of the house in the winter.
When I was in high school we lived in some "modern" apartments in SF that had hot water radiator heating. A radiator in each room. My mom loved it. I usually kept the heater on as low as possible and also kept a window open most of the time in my room.
Also have two fireplaces here with relatively efficient fan driven inserts. Didn't use them at all last winter, but I think I'll be firing them up this winter.
My home is no exception: forced air gas heat. It has some advantages: relatively cheap heating fuel (at least, currently), relatively efficient (depending on how air tight and insulated the ducting is, and how efficient the furnace is). It's actually an upgrade from my previous residence, which had one downstairs wall gas heater for the entire two story house. Yes, it was chilly in most of the house in the winter.
When I was in high school we lived in some "modern" apartments in SF that had hot water radiator heating. A radiator in each room. My mom loved it. I usually kept the heater on as low as possible and also kept a window open most of the time in my room.
Also have two fireplaces here with relatively efficient fan driven inserts. Didn't use them at all last winter, but I think I'll be firing them up this winter.
Steam all the way!
I grew up in modern homes with forced air hearing that were ALWAYS cold. Then I moved to NYC where nearly all the older apartment buildings have steam radiators. I'll never go back.
In fact, when I build my "new" home in Pittsburgh it will be with steam heat and a boiler. "Radiated" heat is so much warmer and more comfortable than forced air. And like others have mentioned, I also have not experienced the "drying" effect with radiators as much as I did with the forced air systems.
Ditto on the dust issue as well. Radiators don't blow it around like forced air does.
An interesting side note, however, about NYC buildings that "overcompensated" for drafty buildings that are now "over-insulated". Now that I'm running a building in Manhattan, I'm learning way more than I ever thought I would about heating systems, plumbing, and masonry. The structural masonry buildings (buildings that are solid brick, as opposed to wood or steel frame with merely a brick facade) that have been retro-insulated are the ones with most of the erosion issues today. They never should have been insulated in the first place. Insulating a solid brick building in the long run will cause major damage to the outside brick, leading eventually to major structural damage. The reason is, brick absorbs moisture, and it needs the interior heat filtering through the walls to the outside to keep the brick temperature moderate, preventing too much freezing of that moisture. When you insulate those brick walls from the inside, you are preventing the heat from escaping, keeping that outside layer of brick from warming up sufficiently, exacerbating the freeze-and-thaw cycles, which ultimately breaks the brick down into dust. Properly constructed and maintained, a solid brick building should last for centuries. But in our zeal for "efficient" heating, we have dramatically shortened the lifespan of these buildings.
I grew up in modern homes with forced air hearing that were ALWAYS cold. Then I moved to NYC where nearly all the older apartment buildings have steam radiators. I'll never go back.
In fact, when I build my "new" home in Pittsburgh it will be with steam heat and a boiler. "Radiated" heat is so much warmer and more comfortable than forced air. And like others have mentioned, I also have not experienced the "drying" effect with radiators as much as I did with the forced air systems.
Ditto on the dust issue as well. Radiators don't blow it around like forced air does.
An interesting side note, however, about NYC buildings that "overcompensated" for drafty buildings that are now "over-insulated". Now that I'm running a building in Manhattan, I'm learning way more than I ever thought I would about heating systems, plumbing, and masonry. The structural masonry buildings (buildings that are solid brick, as opposed to wood or steel frame with merely a brick facade) that have been retro-insulated are the ones with most of the erosion issues today. They never should have been insulated in the first place. Insulating a solid brick building in the long run will cause major damage to the outside brick, leading eventually to major structural damage. The reason is, brick absorbs moisture, and it needs the interior heat filtering through the walls to the outside to keep the brick temperature moderate, preventing too much freezing of that moisture. When you insulate those brick walls from the inside, you are preventing the heat from escaping, keeping that outside layer of brick from warming up sufficiently, exacerbating the freeze-and-thaw cycles, which ultimately breaks the brick down into dust. Properly constructed and maintained, a solid brick building should last for centuries. But in our zeal for "efficient" heating, we have dramatically shortened the lifespan of these buildings.
Huge houses and forced air ...
Most houses over 2500 square feet really should have at least TWO furnaces. And many of the 3500+ square foot homes today have THREE small furnaces. Much more efficient than one furnace trying to heat all that square footage.
Most houses over 2500 square feet really should have at least TWO furnaces. And many of the 3500+ square foot homes today have THREE small furnaces. Much more efficient than one furnace trying to heat all that square footage.
