Type of Heat?

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beekeyknee

beekeyknee

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 5, 2010
Messages
1,792
Location
Columbia, MO
This has probably come up before, but since it's so cold I was wondering, what type of heat do you all prefer? I have forced air in my house but I grew up with my parents' hot water heat and I love it. The forced air in my house is drafty and dry (with a humidifier) and my parents' is even and comfy. But with radiant heat one has to have a separate cooling system, either in the attic or window units. And hot water or steam is initially more expensive to install. Thoughts?
 
My forced air is perfect, no drafts and quite even. It is designed properly. 2 stage modulating gas burner, continuous low volume fan and humidifier. House was drafty until the right system was installed.
 
This was our first house that had hot water heating as opposed to forced air. I like it. It's quiet and very even heat. Another plus is that the boiler downstairs keeps the whole basement very warm in the winter, actually warmer than the rest of the house. The downside is no central air. Our house is a traditional 4 level split . The mini-split a/c cools the main floor and the ground floor quite well, the basement rec room is always cool in the summer anyways. We just use a couple of portable a/c for the top floor as and when required mostly at night for sleeping as and when required. No point in running them all day as we seldom go up there other than to sleep.
 
My house had electric baseboard heaters and a big wood stove with a furnace type blower with duct work to the main living area. I loved the heat given off by wood but I hated all the work and the mess. I don't like electric heat either...I never felt warm enough and electric heat is very expensive so 4 years ago I got rid of the wood stove and base board heaters. I had a propane (no natural gas where I live) boiler installed and replaced all the electric baseboard heaters with hot water radiant heaters. I like the heat given off, not too dry and the system is silent. If I had my preference I would love to have radiant floor heating. A couple of my friends built homes with it and it is wonderful...my feet are always toasty warm when I go there and consequently the rest of me stays warm too.

Gary
 
I live in a 100+ year old row house in South Philly, and have hot water heat. It is delivered via room radiators.

The radiators are nice for silent, steady heat. I don't understand why, but our house is not dry in the winter like some homes with forced air heating. It is not like the sealed radiators are adding moisture to the air. In the winter, we do allow the moisture from the shower to evaporate into the rest of the house, so perhaps that helps.

There are some down sides to having a boiler for heating. It means the house was not built with ducts that can be used for air conditioning. So a roof top air-conditioner cools the upper level of the house though a duct system that runs though the ceiling of the upper floor. A though-the-wall unit cools the main level. It cost nearly $9000 to replace the roof top air conditioner a few years ago since it is a high efficiency packaged unit (a one piece unit with air ducts going to and from the house), and a crane was required to remove the old air conditioner and move the new unit into place. While I can change the filter, each spring the A/C contractor must use a ladder to get on the roof to do the yearly service check.

When using the heat in winter, since we are not home during weekdays and like it cooler at night, we used a programmable thermostat to make adjustments. This is where hot-water radiator heating systems, which take a long time to heat up, are at a disadvantage. The problem is that most programmable thermostats don't compensate for how radiant heating systems work. They don't turn them on early enough to reach the right temperature in time, or off soon enough to not overshoot the desired temperature. They just shut off the boiler when the set temp is reached. But since the radiators are filled with hot water, they continue to heat the house beyond the desired temperature, resulting in large temperature swings, especially when the temperature has been raised from a lower "away" temperature to a warmer "home" temperature.

Just a couple of days ago I installed a nest thermostat, which is supposed to learn the particulars of our home and radiant heating system, and compensate based on settings and outside temperature. The hope is that it will be able to maintain a comfortable temperature without overshooting the set temperature while we are home, and save energy by automatically going into away mode when we leave.

I do like that it is connected to the internet so we can have remote access. One of the first world problems we recently experienced with our old thermostat was over Thanksgiving when we were away for a couple of days. The temperature was set lower to save energy, but then when we got home to a 55F (13C) house, it took a couple of hours for the house to heat back up. With remote access, we can now tell it ahead of time to warm the house before we arrive.

If anyone has experience with the nest thermostat, I would love to hear about it. I am hoping that it will bring out the best in our radiant heating system.
 
Interesting about the programmable t-stats. I never figured they would work all that well with hot water heating. I did try hooking one up once but couldn't seem to get it to work and put the old Honeywell roundie back on.
 
Our power company offers the nest thermometer for $14.95 per month. They preprogram it before it's installed. So you take what settings they give you. Not for us. Especially when they tell you that your air conditioning/heating will be turned on and off for periods of high usage. Plus you have to pay them for the privilege!
 
It's been working well-- so far!

Long time members know that the furnace serving my apartment has been troublesome at times...some winters, shutting down completely several times over the winter.
My landlord has NEVER (in the time I've been here, anyway) to have the thing professionally serviced and cleaned. He'd rather come out and replace thermocouples.......

It is gas forced air, the only heat I have ever lived with. I am used to the peculiarities of it. I suspect, but do not know for certain why my landlord does not call a heating contractor....I bet the contractor would suggest replacement. I do have a carbon monoxide detector, and it has never signaled, except for testing.

I once stayed in a hotel that had subfloor heating, and oh, was it ever nice in the bathroom!

Lawrence/Maytagbear
 
We have natural gas forced air, but mainly heat the house with a wood stove in the basement. It is so much more even than the furnace, we can keep the house several degrees cooler with the wood stove and still be comfortable. My favorite part of wood heat is coming in from outside wnd standing in front of the stove, the radiant heat just warms you to your bones like no furnace ever could. The downside is it dries the house out, we have a built in humidifier on the furnace, but that only runs when the furnace is on, so we have a humidifier upstairs as well.
 
I have hot water heat via radiators. It's a nice even heat. I only feel the cold when I get to close to a window or the front door.

Last year, I went all out and set the programmable thermostat. I am not really sure it saved any money. This year the heat is set at 70. So far, I can wander around in socks. One of the benefits of boiler heat is that the floors are warm with all the pipes running below. There has been a separate A/C system installed. I thank the past owner for not screwing up this old house!
 
My parents house, maternal grandmother's house, and ours all had gravity furnaces when originally built.  All of them had coal fired furnaces at first, and my parents and ours then had fuel oil forced air furnaces installed, and now both have natural gas.  My maternal grandmother's coal furnace was replaced in 1962 with an Iron Fireman natural gas forced air unit.  My parents converted to a gas furnace in 1980, and our house was changed over in 1994.  My paternal grandparents had a natural gas unit installed when they built their house in 1956-57.  My parents Milwaukee furnace from 1980 is still going strong 33+ yrs later.  Our Lennox Pulse crapped out 2yrs ago, and now we have a Carrier w/ 2 stage burner and blower.
 
Heat pump in this house with multi-speed compressor and variable speed air handler (as per John L's (combo52) suggestion--thank you John).
 
The hot water heating system is divided into 5 zones in my house - living area, main bathroom, master bedroom, guest bedroom, lower level. I have programmable thermostats for the living area, main bathroom and master bedroom so that I can lower/raise the heat in each area automatically and individually. The thermostats automatically compensate for the time required to raise the temperature. For example, I have it set to turn down the bedroom temperature to 65 F overnight and raise it to 70 F at 6 am. The thermostat compensates by turning on 3 minutes early for ever 1 degree it has to raise the temperature so in this case 5 deg. times 3 min. = 15 min....it turns on at 5:45 am. I do not have temperature swings. The boiler operates only when the water circulation pump is running. It shuts off when the water temperature reaches 180 F. and turns on when it drops down to 160. The circulation pump operates when heat is called for.

Gary
 
90+ efficent Gas forced air Intertherm furnace.

In Katie's and my home 8 years now without an issue.  Strong reliable heat and very efficient.  Growing up the house had a Lennox Furnace with 2 speed blower that ran for 20 years.  Also  Heatilator fireplace was used daily.  Loved sitting by the Heatilator with a nice hardwood fire and the soft hum of the fan on a cold night.

WK78
 
New Yorker baseboard oil hot water boiler. Has a tankless coil for non stop hot water thru 1 outlet only. Run 2 faucets at once and it goes cold. Also a Hearthstone propane stove on main level and Empire propane fireplace on lower level that both work during power outages. Next door neighbor has radiant in floor heat that is very hard to regulate up and down, like in case of a sudden cold snap.
 
Matt - We don't have the 2 stage burner and low volume fan. That would probably make a difference.

Joe - I think I remember you telling about the air conditioner/crane story before. What an ordeal. But I guess that's to be expected in a row house. I don't think I would like not being able to get to my air conditioner, but sometimes conditions dictate. Renting a thermostat; I can't imagine.

We put in a atmospheric heat pump this summer because the evaporator coil sprung a leak. The "N" coil sits right in front of the April Air humidifier and partially blocks the flow of moist air coming from it. An "A" coil would have solved the problem but we would have lost the efficiency an "N" coil gives us. And the heat pump needed the "N" coil so there was no choice. The heat pump and burners cycle on and off alternately and the blower turns off for maybe a minute between the two, which I don't like. It's that weird sound and silence thing that bothers me; a constant commotion that's distracting. We need to connect a relay to the combustion exhaust fan to regulate the furnace blower in the winter to prevent that constant cycling instead of the blower being controlled by the temperature of the heat exchanger. As far as the humidifier goes, there's not much to do. The utility room is too small to re-engineer the furnace.

Another thing I don't like about forced air is that it won't operate w/o electricity. And we don't have any form of heat in the basement that will work w/o electricity, so I worry about power outages. We really don't have room for a back-up generator. A gas stove in the downstairs kitchenette would provide some heat w/o electricity. I suppose I should make a change there. It's a 20" apartment size stove and I don't see that size in gas too often. I think I would want vintage too, if I could find it.

I can see the possibility of moving to a different house in the future. I don't like not having a back up plan.

Something I miss about my parents' hot water furnace - when the power goes out flip a switch and turn a valve and the furnace is then convection.
 
I've never had an extended

blackout in the winter, so far.

Yes, I would like a wood stove, but I'm not freaking out about it. Last two apartments had wood burning fireplaces, and that was NICE.

Lawrence/Maytagbear
 
During the 80s

I worked for a heating contractor, I serviced oil and gas units of all types,the furnaces made today do use less fuel, but when you factor in replacing them every 10 years or so, its not such a deal, for instance, in my hometown there are many Waterbury oil furnaces from the 50s still running, I used to service a furnace in a Church that was installed in 1947....a York, oil furnace, and its still running, as for me, I like hot water baseboard heat with a gas boiler, oil is good, but its so high now its rediculous, and I would much rather have a gas furnace with a cast iron burner and pilot light than this stuff made today, yeah, it burns a little more gas but you have virtually no service calls, I know of a Janitrol in Lenoir that was put in in 1960, and other than a fan belt has never had a screw turned on it, and the pilot light has never been out!
 
No One Could Have Predicted

Shale gas would have such an effect on NG prices. It is so dirt cheap today compared with oil that many who had been holding off pulling the trigger are converting to gas.

Here in NYC at least for older and many new apartment buildings it is steam heat all the way. You find many older buildings still have their old coal fired boilers, just that the burners and whatnot have been changed over to either oil or natural gas. It is interesting to peek into basement windows of buildings on Park Avenue and such to see those massive boilers with beautiful detailing on the heavy doors that used to open and close for coal. Someone is charged with keeping those units spit and polished because most every one shines.

Grew up with forced air and hated it as it is too dry and blows dust all over. Much prefer steam heat. Mind you the system has to be maintained well or you get knocking, clanking, rusty water pouring all over and so forth.

Problem many older buildings have especially large apartment is that over the years as the structure settles the radiators can shift slightly as well. This results in things going out of whack IIRC.

The other worry for all older homes with steam/hot water heating is that back in the day heating contractors tended to oversize boilers to compensate for "drafty" buildings. If the place has a modern insulation job along with sealing of cracks and new windows (in short making the place air tight), you can find the heating system is just too powerful. IIRC this also happens when a new boiler must be purchased as replacement or as part of a building renovation.
 
 
<blockquote>Grew up with forced air and hated it as it is too dry ...</blockquote> Heat pumps are forced-air systems but are not so drying.  I don't get static shocks from door knobs, etc.
 
Dry Indoor Air From Forced Heating

At least with radiators you can place bowls or pots of water on top to release vapor, not so with forced air. Had terrible winter dry skin growing up because of that darned forced dry air heating. Then there was the noise each time the system revved up.

Am told today's forced air systems are much better. They can be equipped with all manner and sorts of filters and you can even add a humidifier. Indeed with modern thermostats you can control not only the desired temperature but relative humidity of indoor air. Thermostat will then control heating and or even the AC, along with the humidifier to get things were you want.

Awhile ago there seemed to be a lot of noise about in floor radiant heat with copper or PVC tubing. You couldn't get away from a home improvement show or what not without some homeowner or contractor from Maine to PA raving about such systems. Don't seem to hear much about them today, maybe because the hype has died down and they have become a common thing.
 
Forced air, oil fired, very old furnace (30years) located in the crawlspace under the house. Terribly inefficient and sooo expensive to run. $250 a month on average and that's keeping the house at 61 with an occasional splurge to 63. Space heaters in the rooms we use the most so its not all bad. Defintaley a new furnace is in the plans for this year. Its really time.

My "ex-house" had the best of both worlds. Gas fired hot water heat with recessed radiators in the walls under the windows and seperate central air mounted in the attic. Damn, I miss that house. The ex, not so much, but I sure do miss that house.
 
I know where you are coming from Laundress. I also grew up with forced air heat with a converted to oil furnace from coal. It was so dry, walking across a room with a rug and touching anything gave you a shock. My first apartment had hot water radiators that were wonderful. Oil is still expensive but significantly less than gas at $3.44/gal. Natural gas pipeline is less than 7 miles away from me but I will never see that equivilent of natural @ $1.79 vs. 3.89 for propane. Not enough people here, just like cable.
 
Near Me, 'Round Here:

Seems like it's always NAT. GAS, though there have been truck-delivered oil firing the furnace, via. a big tank beside the furnace (or outside of one house in the back yard, which likely about 10-15-years-ago has probably long-disappeared!)

-- Dave
 
Some pundits are already predicting that the shale gas boom won't last and that NG prices will skyrocket so people shouldn't convert from oil. Meanwhile the USA has so much of the stuff we're running out of places to store.

This boom in NG is killing coal. Read in the WSJ last week many coal towns in KY and elsewhere are in dire straits as mines close or drastically scale back production. Power plants are switching to NG or closing their coal burning operations because electric from NG atm is so much cheaper they cannot compete. Then there are all those pesky new regulations from the Obama administration regarding coal. [this post was last edited: 12/7/2013-01:45]
 
I have a two stage Trane XV90, Nat gas furnace., with a Honeywell VisionPro IAQ stat. House is very comfy since the change out from a oversized '69 Chrysler AirTemp.

The old furnace was way oversized, and heat was very uneven from a blast of heat, and short run cycle.

Now it's -2˚f, and it's running a steady 1st stage. The IAQ stat controls the humidifier, fresh air intake into the house.

The BIGGEST mistake people do with adding a programable t-stat, mostly on the Honeywell lines, they don't read all the the pages in the book.. If the t-stat isn't set up for hot water heat or high effe forced air, they don't offer the comfort.

My dream system is hot water heat Geo system w/ infloor heat.
 

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