Type of Heat?

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Mayguy your system sounds much like mine.  I think for me the key is CAC- continuous air circulation.  The air is circulated so the temp in the house is totally even, I keep the humidity at 50%, with the CAC the humidifier runs when needed.  Since my space was limited the humidifier had to be mounted in the cold air return,and as such I have to use hot water for the humidifier since cold would not generate enough moisture.

 

Much the same as you we had a humongous over-sized furnace. The house is large 3500+sq ft and the first furnace was undersized.  We replaced it with a 150,000btu monster  that heated up too fast and then cooled down almost as quickly.  Had a very good company come out and properly size the unit, dual stage 80,000btu unit.  It's rare for the second stage to kick in, so the system sips gas most of the time.

 

If anyone is considering a new furnace I very much recommend finding a reputable company to come out and do a heat loss analysis and get the right equipment.
 
Sizing inportant!    The old one was about 115,000 BTU, and this one is at 60k..  40k for 1st stage.    Bigger isn't always better!

 

I had a Manual J done, and the results came back to about 50k furnace, but 60k  was the only options.
 
I've got a combination of a 1989 Trane XL Gas furnace -- the 90 means its 90% efficient, I understand -- and electric radiant heat in the concrete basement floor.

As Tim (wayupnorth) says, the in-floor radiant heat isn't great for responding to temp swings. It takes hours, in fact, when starting from cold (first it has to heat up all that concrete!) It's great once it gets going, though it uses 3300 watts just to heat part of the house -- yikes.

The furnace is so old the HVAC guy who does tuneups is always applying pressure to replace it. I can't see the cost benefit, though. You can get a furnace that's more than 90% efficient now, but only at a huge initial cost. As long as this one is working and you can get parts for it....
 
@launderess: The coal bust in eastern Kentucky is truly sad for the people involved. I spent a lot of time in Harlan, Ky. until recently and it is as bad there as the WSJ article says.

There are a combination of factors involved.... In addition to shale gas, the fact is most of the best and easiest coal has already been mined, and what's left is deep and/or in narrow seams that makes the miners work on hands and knees in many cases.

Eastern Ky. coal used to be in high demand because of its relatively low sulfur content, but as power plant emissions regulations have grown tighter, utilities have been forced to install expensive scrubbers at most plants regardless. Having the scrubbers, ironically, means they can burn much higher sulfur coal from the Illinois Basin and still put out fewer emissions than before.

The killer has been that the price of Eastern bituminous coal has stayed stubbornly high for years at around $75/ton, as I recall, and Wyoming coal can be delivered to the southeast for much less. TVA has announced they will not be buying any more Appalachian coal for this reason.

It wouldn't be surprising that once the natgas industry has everyone on the hook, the price will shoot up. It's happened before.
 
The house here is using a 100,000 BTU input American Standard natural gas boiler that is original to the home from 1965. Home has 3 levels with a zone for each floor, radiation is all from AS baseboard units. There is no dynamic zone control, only static balancing valves. Years ago my brother Jeff added a water temp setback control to vary the system temperature based on outdoor temperature.

A couple years ago I added a two piece Honeywell IAQ programmable thermostat. I had a Honeywell Chronotherm III that was many years old but it started to act flakey, short cycling the heat calls at times. I chose the IAQ as it made it easy to interconnect the separate air handler for the central cooling system.

One rub with this house is that it has inadequate baseboard area, ideally there should be 40-50% more. To keep the house at temp on the coldest and most windy days the water temperature runs as high as 220F. Not sure what I'll have to do when I transition to a high efficiency boiler, since they can't get nearly as hot. Of course the high boiler temperature just means the flue losses are ridiculous.

Overall I really like the hot water heat, its quiet, even and never drafty. It is pretty slow at temp changes but it still pays to setback at night. I have a small 12v inverter and a 24ah AGM battery that could run the 1/24 hp circulator pump and the low voltage control circuit for hours. Its a lot easier then trying to start and run a forced air blower. So far there have been no significant winter power outages so its never been an issue. The downsides with hot water are the need for a separate cooling system and no air filtering or central humidification.
 
Heat choices most of the time you DON'T have the heat or cooling source you would like-often have to take what comes with the house or building.Right now have a BOL Lennox HVAC system. spring summer-GREAT as an AC.But during the winter-LOUSY as a heater-the Heat pump I have is inefficent.Would rather have gas-but too costly to put in at this time.So I live with the Heat pump and a couple of Heat Smart portable heaters-those work well.I can throttle back the heat pump.When it is cold--below freezing the unit is too inefficeint to use.But cope with it anyway.It is serviced yearly.And of course change filters every month.
 
Most homes in this area use gas for heating and most don't have central air. The older homes have in-floor or in-wall gas room heaters. The more modern homes have central forced air.

My home is no exception: forced air gas heat. It has some advantages: relatively cheap heating fuel (at least, currently), relatively efficient (depending on how air tight and insulated the ducting is, and how efficient the furnace is). It's actually an upgrade from my previous residence, which had one downstairs wall gas heater for the entire two story house. Yes, it was chilly in most of the house in the winter.

When I was in high school we lived in some "modern" apartments in SF that had hot water radiator heating. A radiator in each room. My mom loved it. I usually kept the heater on as low as possible and also kept a window open most of the time in my room.

Also have two fireplaces here with relatively efficient fan driven inserts. Didn't use them at all last winter, but I think I'll be firing them up this winter.
 
Steam all the way!

I grew up in modern homes with forced air hearing that were ALWAYS cold. Then I moved to NYC where nearly all the older apartment buildings have steam radiators. I'll never go back.

In fact, when I build my "new" home in Pittsburgh it will be with steam heat and a boiler. "Radiated" heat is so much warmer and more comfortable than forced air. And like others have mentioned, I also have not experienced the "drying" effect with radiators as much as I did with the forced air systems.

Ditto on the dust issue as well. Radiators don't blow it around like forced air does.

An interesting side note, however, about NYC buildings that "overcompensated" for drafty buildings that are now "over-insulated". Now that I'm running a building in Manhattan, I'm learning way more than I ever thought I would about heating systems, plumbing, and masonry. The structural masonry buildings (buildings that are solid brick, as opposed to wood or steel frame with merely a brick facade) that have been retro-insulated are the ones with most of the erosion issues today. They never should have been insulated in the first place. Insulating a solid brick building in the long run will cause major damage to the outside brick, leading eventually to major structural damage. The reason is, brick absorbs moisture, and it needs the interior heat filtering through the walls to the outside to keep the brick temperature moderate, preventing too much freezing of that moisture. When you insulate those brick walls from the inside, you are preventing the heat from escaping, keeping that outside layer of brick from warming up sufficiently, exacerbating the freeze-and-thaw cycles, which ultimately breaks the brick down into dust. Properly constructed and maintained, a solid brick building should last for centuries. But in our zeal for "efficient" heating, we have dramatically shortened the lifespan of these buildings.
 
Huge houses and forced air ...

Most houses over 2500 square feet really should have at least TWO furnaces. And many of the 3500+ square foot homes today have THREE small furnaces. Much more efficient than one furnace trying to heat all that square footage.
 
Hot water radiation heat here with radiators in every room. This summer I got a new boiler/hot water combo which is very efficient. According to the figures it should be 107%, but I guess that is a matter of how it was measured. I still use the Chronotherm III that I already had. Reasonably comfortable mainly because the house is drafty...
 
I'm spoilt for choice here

We've natural gas forced air heating downstairs...along with a reverse cycle 6kw split system AND an open fire with closeable flue should we desire.

Upstairs we've a 5kw floor mounted reverse cycle unit....

We're never cold....
 
Having travelled overseas where electric baseboard heaters are used, along with the typical in-floor heating (Common in European bathrooms), I can safely say that I prefer the in-floor heating. Whilst they do take a bit of time to get warm, once you get the thing warm, it stays very nice and cozy, and the entire room is thoroughly heated - no hot spots or cold spots. 

Likewise, I feel the same about the baseboard heaters. Depending on the power you set them on, they keep the room warm and cosy nice and evenly. No rattling fans, just a gentle, constant heat (Although that depends on what power setting you use. When cranked onto full, you could probably cook breakfast on one!). 

 

When living in colder climates here in Australia, I have mostly experienced wood fireplaces in the main living areas. These are very nice, but later on I learnt that a fireplace will generally take the heat out of other rooms in the house while the fireplace heats its own area up. In our previous house, the fireplace was in the corner of the room, and thus gave thermal mass to the wall surrounding it, which helped to heat the hallway (and to some extent the bedrooms) behind it. We generally kept that part of the house shut anyway, since it is very nice to come from a toasty area to a colder area and have to "Rug Up," as it were in bed. 

 

I must ask Ronhic, a 5Kw heater sounds like it would be overkill in your house... Thinking about it though, you do live in Canberra and that is a pretty cold place to be! 

For the American readers, I will add that 5Kw is equivalent to a 1.5ton Heat-Pump system - and to put that into comparison, my home (Which is roughly 1200sq. ft or 111m2) requires about a 2ton system (Between 7 and 8 KW) - even though it is fitted with a 5 ton system (16Kw). What is the area you are heating, as I am curious about how the system was sized for your needs? 

 

Will also add that this has been an interesting read in regards to everyone's opinion on different types of heat. Having steam boilers sounds like "fun" to me!

"Don't touch that radiator Billy: Or else you'll get burnt!"
 
To compensate for the dryness of our gas forced air heating system we use a mid 70's West Bend "Water Wheeler" humidifier, model no. 4032.  It has a 6½ gallon reservoir, and does a nice job for our 1100 sq. ft. one story home.  I got it free at a garage sale 3yrs ago.  It came in the original box with all of the paperwork too.  The price when it was bought was $129.99.
 
forced air

Nearly all post-energy crisis (i.e. built after mid-70s) residential construction in California is forced-air, whereas radiant heating had its place in the era of cheap electricity. My home is two miles from the ocean, at which point A/C is rarely necessary in California, but forced air ducts allow easy conversion to A/C. My home was built as " A/C ready" meaning the ducts and cables are all in place, only the condenser is missing.

Since installing double pane, gas sealed windows throughout the house this year, the heating season has already been shortened. With single panes, normally the furnace would fire up in early November (wake-up and evening cycles on the thermostat are set to 60 F---the night-time and day-time cycles are set at 54 F). Now, the first heating day was two days ago, when the 6 am temp fell to 59 F. With the old windows, the house would drop sometimes below 54 F in the middle of the night (if it was mid-30s outside at night). It's 38 F outside this morning, but the house temp fell only to 59 F----it appears that the windows are keeping the house 7-8 F degrees warmer in winter, which means the house remains warm enough to avoid using the furnace unless it's below 40-42 F outside.

The result of all of this (new windows plus a SoCal climate---mind you we do get frosts, sometimes temps into the high 20s) is that I foresee a shortened heating season, with lower gas usage than last year. In addition, since the furnace is only on maybe 1-2 hours/day, we don't deal with the dry air issue so much. As Joe In Philly mentioned, in winter we keep bathroom windows closed, so that the moisture from the shower remains in the house (if you keep the bathroom doors open) and I think this helps quite a bit, without requiring a formal humidifier.
 
I must ask Ronhic, a 5Kw heater sounds like it would be over

Not really.

Our downstairs is 98sqm/1078sqf not including laundry, downstairs loo or garages.

Given that 75% of our ceilings down there are vaulted 12 ft at their maximum height, that'd be considered under heated/cooled if we were relying on just the reverse cycle. We don't. It's used predominantly as an airconditioner for cooling.

The ducted heating is via a 20 year old Brivis 'Buffalo' 26XA rated at 26KW and covers all of downstairs with 10 outlets.

1 x entry
2 x lounge
1 x sunroom
2 x hall/dining room
2 x kitchen
2 x family room

The open fire is a 'Heatform', which I believe is American built (not surprising given we had Jenn-Air hotplates). It's basically a steel firebox that's built into a fireplace. Double skinned with air intakes at the bottom and outlets at the top. As the air between the layers is heated it convects out the top, increasing the efficiency of fireplace. They're also built somewhat 'backwards' to encourage this with the flue at the front rather than the rear.

These could be had with optional fans to force the air through. We've not got them. However, we do have a 'roof' or 'cap' over the chimney that can be lowered via a stainless steel cable when not in use. Great for keeping bugs and possums out in summer!

Sorry about the quality of the picture, but you can see the height of the ceilings as well as the heat outlets built into the top of the fireplace. We had 32 for Christmas Eve last year. The tables run initially in the 'hall' area with our dining area on the immediate left and then into the lounge room, turning right towards the front of the house. The air conditioner is now mounted directly opposite the last bookcase above a sliding door to the sunroom. It was 35c on Christmas Eve last year.....not nice.

ronhic++12-7-2013-16-47-8.jpg
 
That Makes Better Sense!

Now I understand. Thanks for explaining that for me! 

 

Although it certainly doesn't sound like thing would've been too comfortable on your 35º Christmas Eve... So in that case, in that case you'd be wanting more Cooling (I guess that's where oversizing and Inverter systems would come into play here). 
 
Mine's a bit complicated!

The average home here in Ireland would be heated by a hydronic system - hot water circulated through radiators.

We'd normally use natural gas, oil, LPG and possible solid fuel (sometimes as an extra) as the main sources of heat for that. However, alternatives are popping up all the time like wood chip and geothermal heat pumps.

In my house, we've opted to add an automatic wood pellet furnace to the system but we've retained the natural gas boiler as a back-up too. So, we can select either or both sources of heat.

Our system comprises 18 radiators, which are low profile with fins on the back and are painted to blend into the walls.

The domestic hot water is provided using a combination of a heat exchange coil that takes heat from the hydronic system, solar panels on the roof and an optional electric element if you want to give it a boost for some reason.

The controls work like this:

Four thermostats control 4 circuits:
1) Main living room / dining room areas.
2) Main bedroom areas.
3) Kitchen
4) Hot water storage tank.

These are controlled by wall thermostats that activate/deactivate the circulation pump and also open/close a motorised valve to prevent flow. The system can use one of the bathroom radiators and the hot water storage tank as a heat sink in the event that all circuits were closed and the furnace was still hot.

We also have individual thermostatic radiator valves in each room.

The system also has timers so you can programme it to switch on / off at different times of the day or to activate individual circuits.

So, for example it switches off when we're out during the day and switches on around an hour before we're likely to get home.

You can quite easily bypass the timers by just flicking a switch in the utility room though.

---

Advantages:

You don't have issues with very dry air as the radiators don't run hot enough to 'burn' the air like electric heating can and like some forced-air systems can.

It creates very little dust as there isn't any blowing air.

It doesn't circulate smells around the house as some forced air systems can and there's no fire risk as the furnaces are located in an outbuilding rather than the house itself and the system only contains hot water.

Because the system's essentially just one big water-filled set of pipes, it can be used with multiple heat sources very easily. So, it gives you a lot of flexibility with new fuel options and can save a lot of money by adapting to changing markets over the years.

It's also very low maintenance as there's very little to go wrong unless a pipe bursts or corrodes which is pretty unusual and unlikely. The pipes are all copper.

Disadvantages:

To achieve maximum efficiency you also have to include a forced air ventilation system that recovers heat using heat exchangers. Otherwise, if you're just opening windows you can really crank up the heating bills.

It probably doesn't react as quickly as a forced air system if you started it up from cold. But, that's not really a big deal to be honest.

It cannot be used for central cooling, but that's something that's irrelevant here anyway as the climate's not hot enough to ever require air conditioning in a domestic setting. Summers are about 70ºF to 77ºF max.
 
About windows....

I'm of the opinion that the main benefit of replacing old single pane windows with new double pane windows is that the sloppy air leaking fit of the old windows is replaced with new, tight fitting windows.

When you look at the math, it makes sense. The R-value of a single pane of glass is 1. The R-value of a double pane window is about 2. Triple pane can be 3-5. Yes, that's 2-5 times as much, but compare that with the R-value of an insulated wall: at least 13 or more. Since windows tend to represent far less square footage on the building envelop than walls, floors, and especially ceilings, weatherizing dollars are generally most efficiently used in the following order 1) Seal all air leaks 2) Insulate ceiling/attic, 3) Insulate under floor (for crawl spaces or basements), 4) Insulate walls, 5) Replace single pane windows with double pane windows.

The problem with old windows is that sometimes they simply can't be made air tight because they are so deteriorated or cheaply made in the first place. However, I've been gradually taking down the aluminum horizontal slider windows here - which are probably about 45 years old - and replacing the compressed or rotted out weather stripping (like a line of fuzz) with new stuff. Windows that used to rattle in the wind are now quiet. The only problem is that quite often the old weather stripping is corroded into place and it can take a while to free it. And because you have to pull off at least one of the window frame pieces, there's also the risk that the glass will break in the process. But where I have been able to retrofit the windows I am sensing there is less draftiness in the rooms, esp. where the windows used to rattle in their tracks even when closed.

I've already sealed off all the other likely air leaks, as well as insulated the hell out of the attic (up to R30 in most of it), and insulated about 1/2 of the underside of the flooring above the crawl space. Just those steps made a huge difference in energy consumption, comfort, and furnace cycle times.

Eventually I'll get around to replacing the windows with dual pane, but for now I think making them less leaky is the right thing to do.

I've also found that drawing the shades or curtains at night helps to prevent that "cold sink" effect that windows have. I'm debating whether to get some accordion style cellular shades for the bedroom, which ironically is the coldest room in the house, despite having the most attic insulation, floor insulation, and wall insulation. It's an addition and tends to be more exposed to the elements than the rest of the home (three exterior walls) so that might explain some of it. Leaky air ducts might be another cause. I covered them up with foil faced 1" fiberglass insulation years ago but it's possible it needs to be removed, and all the joins re-sealed with woven polyester tape coated with a special mastic for ductwork.
 
I grew up with gas fueled, forced hot air (Coleman furnace). There were never any problems. The house was never dry or drafty. I don't recall ever hearing anyone ever complaining about the heat in our typical late 60's suburban development in New England.

I owned a co-op that originally had recessed hot water radiators. When I bought my unit, all had been replaced by baseboard hot water in the recesses. Yes, that's right. A 24x24x4" radiator was replaced by 2 feet of baseboard that was supposed to do the same job, lol. Needless to say the place was quite cold.

Every house since my parents' (except for co-op) had a one-pipe steam system. I learned how to balance it from my grandfather and after that, no problems. Where I live now there's the same thing, but the boiler short cycles, radiators heat at different speeds regardless of valve size, and upstairs is warmer than down. Anyone know an aw.org for residential steam heat?
 
I have 2 American Standard 90,0000 btu gas forced hot air furnaces with april air 600 humidifiers. Each furnace has 2 zones attached to it. Keeps temps within 1 degree of what thermostat is set at. Quite comfortable and no dryness in the air. The humidifiers have a probe set outside to monitor the outside humidity so it takes that into consideration of the inside humidity. Very happy with these 2 units.
 
@sudsmaster

While I am noticing a reduction in heating needs with the double pane windows, the real payoff appears to be in summer. They were installed in September on a 92 F day (granted, days are getting shorter by then) and, as one would expect in a house with no windows for a day, the interior temperature was over 80 F in the house. That evening, I opened all the windows when the outside temp cooled down, and then resealed all the windows early the next morning---which likewise was just as hot, 91 F. The inside temp in the house never rose above 71 F---when normally the inside temp would be hitting 80 F or more on a day that hot. The single pane windows used to feel as if they were on fire on hot days with direct sunlight. Now, on a hot day in direct light, the windows feel cool to the touch. We never had any very hot days here after the windows were installed, so I haven't been able to gauge whether the windows will permanently keep the inside temp down in the low 70s, but the preliminary data are encouraging. I don't have A/C, but for someone who does have it, being able to hold the house temp to the low 70s might mean never having to use it.
 
Doc,

Well, I do pretty much the same thing here, ventilating the house overnight and then shutting the windows and doors in the early morning. With results similar to yours, although the indoor temp seems to rise to about 78 towards the end of the "closed up" period. Then again, that was last summer, before I renewed the weather stripping on the single pane windows. So some leaking of hot outdoor air into the home was probably occurring. As well as up through the floor, since there's a crawl here and only about 1/2 of the flooring is insulated. A slab floor probably would be cooler in the summer.

I do find pulling the window shades on the sunny side of the house helps. I would imagine that if your new windows have low-E coatings that would also work to help reject radiated heat from outside.

The nightime temps here lately have continued to drop. Sunday night it got down to 25F, which is rather low for a bayside location. I found ice in a bucket that caught some rainwater. Indoors however it's been quite comfortable.
 
When I bought it, my house here in Hungary did not have any heating equipment installed but there were 2 chimneys suitable for wood burning stoves. Each chimney is set in an internal wall, so there are inlet holes either side to allow for a stove in either room. The previous owners had a focal point type stove in the living room but I wanted my stove to also be a cooking range so mine is in the kitchen and it is the other side of the same wall.
The stove also has a boiler which heats 6 radiators. It does not do the hot water as there was already a new electric water heater which runs on cheap rate night time electricity. Cutting and splitting firewood is a lot of work but it does mean I can produce some of my own fuel by growing trees. The biggest snag is that it won't keep in with the fuel I have available, so I get up to a cold house each morning. On very cold nights I have sometimes got up a couple of times to add more wood.
 
When I was born and for several years after we had steam heat. I called it piped heat because we had no heater. I used to go to friends homes and think it was the greatest thing to have a heater in the basement. Our steam was delivered via underground pipe from the steam heating plant many blocks away. Very good heat and it also provided some moisture because the steam valve on the radiators would open and pulse steam in 2 second intervals several times a minute.

Later we moved and had NG forced hot air. I hated it even though I was young. You would be hot, then too hot, then cool, then cold, and then too cold, and everything was dry including my nose.

From that house we moved into a house with one register in the floor between the living room and dining room. In a 3 story house this didn’t cut it for long. I remember waking up for school and being able to see my breath, and we slept with so many heavy blankets that when I wanted to turn over I had to rest in mid-turn before I could complete it. My parents installed oil fired hot water delivered by baseboard radiators. I liked it because it was zoned and constant although you had to get the oil burner cleaned before every season or there were problems.

In my current house I have NG warm air. It is newer and actually ok. The blower also delivers cool air from the central AC. The furnace is 2 stage and different from the first forced air system I was used to. The delivery temperature is about 85F degrees most of the time so you don’t feel hot or cold you don’t feel a draft, you don’t feel anything just comfortable. It is so quiet I cannot tell when it’s on and the entire house is at a constant temperature.

I have an air cleaner installed in the duct next to it and that helps with dust.

Like the system very much.

I thought about the Nest T stat but was worried because it is supposed to learn your activities when you are home. My concern is that a lot of times I am home, but no where near the T stat which is located in the first floor center hall where nobody usually is..I don't know maybe it can hear you too.

My current stat is a honeywell programmable that can be set for different types of systems...incuding hot water.

Joe please let us know how yours is working out.
 
"The humidifiers have a probe set outside to monitor the outside humidity so it takes that into consideration of the inside humidity."

This probe is an outdoor temp sensor, it will adjust the humidity in the house based on the outdoors temps.

The colder it gets, it will lower the humidity level to avoid frost build up on the windows and other cold spots in the home.
 
Just had a bit of a heating issue this week. our natural gas boiler (furnace) has had a major PCB problem and the replacement cost is over €400…

so, it's time for a new boiler.

it's a bit of a beast that can output 42kW (143,000 BTU)

There is an efficiency grant worth about $2000 to replace it and upgrade the control system. so, I think we'll be doing that this week

I'd be expecting to pay about 2000 myself too.
 
Heating

As with the vast majority of British homes we have gas central heating and hot water, provided by hot water radiators.

The boiler I believe is about 27 years old, and we have no plans to replace it anytime soon, given that our gas bills aren't very high and it has to this date, never required repair (don't jinx it!). It is a floor standing slimline Myson Marathon in the kitchen, which is quite large, as most people have wall mounted boilers.

Hot water is stored in a large copper tank in a cupboard in the master bedroom which is original to the house (1973).

Originally the house was heated by a coal fired boiler, and in our terrace we are the only house which is converted to gas, the others still have their coal boilers and swear by them!

Matt
 

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