want a rinse not a purge

[stopmeister72]

Have a somewhat new Kenmore Elite tall tub dishwasher with turbozone mod - 665.13752k602. Was wondering if there is something you can do to trick the sensor to get a full rinse instead of a purge after the wash so I can get 2 full rinses. Even with a dirty load and using the Smartwash - still only does a purge. If I add water, doesn't purge near as long and pretty much just goes into drain.
Here is a link to a video - just ordered a Kitchenaid wash arm to put in it.
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[appnut]

John, I have a higher-end model than yours, but they're pretty much the same. You're going to have to simply only use the Pots Pans cycle if you want to full post-wash rinses. That's the only cycle that has that built in to its programming. My Smart Wash will do it sometimes, but I cannot figure what specifically tricks it into doing that. When I think I have it figured out, it fools me. The full 2 rinses occur on SmartWash if the load is extremely extremely dirty, or the machie is completely full with dishes and such and is pretty dirty load, or if the initial fill temp is like 100 or so degrees and that's it. Also if you use any options such as TZ, high-temp wash, or sani-rinse that will negate any cycle variances from soil.

 

[appnut]

Thaks for taking the video. It's nice to see what goes on inside my dishwasher.

 

[a440]

Cool Video!

I must say that I am somewhat impressed with the amount of water that is moving around in there!
You say that you are getting a Kitchenaid wash arm to put into it. It is the "hydro" four arm sweep? If so, do you think that it will cut down on the amount of pressure from the pump?
It would be interesting to see a video after you put in the Kitchenaid arm.
Thanks for the video!
Brent

 

[lebron]

Cool video

 

[tomturbomatic]

When I had the two electronic Superbas, maybe 21 and 22 series, that had a purge and one rinse, I would fill a container with 2.5 quarts of water and dump it in quickly after the fill for the purge was complete. It gave enough pressure to at least rinse the lower rack before the drain and the pump was able to drain all of it before the fill for the rinse. This was effective because when I did it, there was no white film on the dishes or racks like when it went through just a purge and rinse. It was heartbreaking that such beautiful machines could have such messed-up cycling.

I don't know if adding water to your dishwasher like I did would work or not or if your dishwasher could pump out that amount of water, but maybe by trial and error and sacrificing automatic for semi-automatic operation, you could improve the rinsing.

It's ironic that when Consumer Reports tested the earliest automatic dishwashers, the APEX only gave one rinse and received a low rating. CU noted that performance was greatly improved by setting the timer to give a second rinse and later APEX models included two rinses in the cycle.

This issue is like the low flush toilets. By cutting down water consumption, many toilets required double flushing to handle more than urine. While they have reduced the water usage of dishwashers, they probably have not factored in the amount of water to goes into hand-rinsing the dishes before they go into the machines now. The no-phosphate detergents will only make this situation worse because they work best with soft water. Water softeners use a large amount of water during their regeneration cycles and add salt to the sewer water so installing a water softener just substitutes one chemical for another in the waste water and phosphates are not lethal to plants like salt is.

 

[appnut]

The drain after the purge is the standard amount of time. I don't really see any difference at all whether there's a purge or an actual rinse.

 

[stopmeister72]

Kitchenaid wash arm

The wash arm I ordered is for a new Kitchenaid so there is actually one less hole than the whirlpool and the holes on the wash arm are smaller that what we are used to in a Hobart Kitchenaid; plus they use the same pumps so I think the pressure will be good if not a little more. On the old Wmc1 Hobart undercounter I had the holes in the hydrospeed were actually bigger than my current Hobart (WM5h, but it has a wash arm on top so i guess they needed to make the holes smaller so there was enough pressure between the two arms. Should get it in Monday so will take another video. It was kind of hard to hold the knife, flashlight, and the phone to get a video but was fun. Will see what happens and share
My cycle chart has the same sequence for pots and pans as the normal and china cycle only the temps and times are different. Under the Smart Wash cycle chart - every thing is a purge except for full heavy load and I have been running a bunch of those but still get a purge. Sometimes I just have it do a quick rinse after. Have thought about doing a quick rinse first with detergent then just putting some detegent in for the prewash so that way I would get 2 washes a rinse, purge and a rinse. Only thing, the wash temps wouldn't be as hot or as long but will try and see what happens.

 

[toggleswitch]

I wonder if there is a way to eclectically "bypass" /fool the sensor(s) triggering in to ALWAYS default to more rinses etc.

 

[appnut]

John, are you lookikng at the cycle chart in the user guide or the qick start guide? Every tall tub WP product I've seen, the charts have a full rinse with PnP and the final heated rinse. That's why it's suggested to use PnP cycle if you live in a hard water area.

 

[jerrod6]

This is a purge?

I don't know, this looks kinda good to me, at least it looks like it would remove remaining detergent and loose soil. What does a full rinse look like? How much more water does a full rinse require?

 

[appnut]

Jerrod, what you are seeing is just a typical water circulating prewash, main wash, or final rinse segment. A purge is only about 15 seconds and drains and it just shoots water thrtough the arms about every 4 seconds in that 15 second pump.

 

[appnut]

John, I've pulled up both your user manual and my user manual. I can see where you think all but the heaviest soil on SmartWash has nothing but a purge. Trust me, even with an empty dishwasher on Pots & Pans, it does two full post-wash rinses and not just a purge and rinse. To be honest, unless you are completely present for the entire cycle, you really have no idea what the sequence is for each load, especially if you use smartWash without any options selected other than heated dry. I know because my computer is next to the kitchen and I'm present for every load at least until the beginning of the final rinse. (It's even been nkown to extremely rarely do a full two rinses on Normal Wash, but I haven't been able to figure out a reasonable correlation to load type when it does that). My loads usually run between 2 hours and 6 miknutes to 2 hours and 15 minutes. (My water heater is set between 115 & 120). I have occassionally had it run the entire 145 minuites (2 hours and 25 minutes)--the maximum number of minutes as stated in the user manual for longest Smartwash.

 

[magic clean]

Bob

the software (fuzzy logic) in the dishwasher control initiates a soil sensor calibration cycle after a predetermined number of completed wash cycles. That is when it will add the additional rinses even on lightly soiled loads. You are very observant.

 

[jerrod6]

OOPS sorry I thought I was looking at a purge. Any one know how much water was moving around in this video?

 

[stopmeister72]

Thanks Appnut

I ran a Pots and Pans cycle today and you're right, it did do two full rinses. Guess this will be my "normal cycle" from now on. Next thing on my list is to get some STPP.
Looks like the other wash arm in going to take longer to get than I thought, but can't wait to see if there is any difference in performance.

 

[pierreandreply4]

me i also have a model with turbozone and i use the smartwash cycle and have not seen any diffrence in the cycle temp or any purge during the wash i can say that the only time it purge is if the sensor notice that the qwater is dirty so it purges the dirty water in order to replace it with fresh water

 

[stevet]

"When you have a torch and a welding machine..."

"Nothing is impossible!"
Something my uncle has always told me and his sons!
Has nothing to do with the purge and rinse issue but just thought I would share it with you all.

Now, it sure looks like everyone who has responded to this thread would be able to fix this problem very easily.

I have often mentioned that my way around the purges whether in the newer Whirlpools or the older Kitchenaids was to do some work on the fill valve.

Since they all have some sort of metering device in them, if you are able to access it, I suggest that you remove the flow washer and let the machine fill to its limit as dictated by the float switch.
This will insure a full charge of water all the time and will change even those short purges Appnut mentions. I have done it on a tall tub Kenmore and it definitely gives you a short but full pressured rinse even if for 15 seconds and have done it on my Kitchenaids of the 21 thru 23 vintage with much better results.
On those, you have those short purges between washes as well depending on the specific model and it is like getting lots of extra rinses to wash away food and soil.

If you cannot disassemble the newer style valves, I am sure any of the older single coil ones can be made to fit and work fine.

Just one word of caution. With a full charge of water in the tub, the water can be blown out of the tank if you open the door to see where the water level is and turn the machine on immediately especially if the water and machine are already nice and hot. The newer machines have that nice five second delay before starting where the air pressure in the tub can escape out of the drying vent before it starts up.

So I would say if you try it with your older Kitchenaid (a la Hobart design), I would throttle down the supply pressure at the turn off valve so that it doesn't really fill too fast, but fast enough to give you more water during a purge fill.
It may take some experimenting but the results will be worth it.
Another thing you could try in that case would be to use a spare float switch and adjust the actuating arm so it shuts the water off at a slightly lower level so it won't blow water out of the door bottom. Only do this if you have a spare switch so that you can keep your original calibrated properly.
Let me know if any of you give it a try.

 

[2dishwasher]

Yes both the sprayer arms are supposed to rotate, It is the exact same sprayer as in the video. I've tried both vinegar and Finish dishwasher cleaner. I will try citric acid. I thought that it had something to do with the plastic corroding, but even the machine that is a couple months has the same issue. The two dishwashers are almost identical but the one is just 2 years older than the other. The newer one is this model:

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