Wash habits: how full is your full load?

[ronhic]

Times have a changed....

....since 1947....

 

...and even since 2007!

 

...but I agree that there should be some movement of the items in a washer to help push water through them or else they will just go around and around. However, you don't need a great deal of movement given the increase in cycle times compared to older machines. The FULL drum of dry clothes will compact by about 4" or so when wet. This is enough room to wash effectively.

 

Time is a key difference between European and American machines. European normal 'cotton warm' cycles are generally 120 minutes or more to ensure that the machine is able to wash a CAPACITY load correctly. American machines take around half that, from what I gather, on the same cycle.

 

You can't have it all:

 

Low water usage

 

AND

 

Large, usable capacity

 

AND

 

Fast cycles

 

AND

 

Great wash results....

 

Something has to give and I believe that American manufacturers have chosen to basically sell machines that just can't do the job that they APPEAR or are MARKETED to do...that is, be used to their full CAPACITY every time...

 

...sure, they can take a large comforter when you need to wash it (how often exactly???), but ask the same machine to wash filled to the brim and it seems as though they don't like it at all...

 

The shame of it all is that America used to lead the world in this field in the late 1940's/1950's when quality was king. Now it's the mighty dollar (again and no different in most countrys either by the way). The same brands are selling high specification machines that sing and dance, but given the technology, metalurgy, plastics processing and general manufacturing improvements that are around today, they just don't hold up as well as their 'grand-washers' did 50yrs ago.

 

Nothing we didn't know ....

 

[dj-gabriele]

Is a 20Km round trip to wash ones clothes considered normal

I don't think that ANYWHERE in Europe one has to travel that much to find a laundromat or laundry to wash one's comforter! Distances are way smaller!
...well, maybe in the remote regions of the Alps or on the Scottish highlands!

I never bothered nor I'm interested in getting a bigger washing machine for that kind of items!
I give them to my favourite laundry and get them back 2 days later, cleaned, dried and vacuum packed and it costs around 12-18 euros, the laundromat costs at least 6€ to wash and 6€ to dry, so there's no point in using overused machines that god-only-knows what they've washed before!

Anyway, in Italy we have comforters/duvets that may or may not have a removable cover (most often not) and under it the proper "top" sheet and on the mattress there is the cover and the bottom sheet. So you only need to change the sheets weekly and the duvet and mattress cover are to be laundered only a few times a year!

SECOND QUESTION ANSWERED:
Maybe the stance in non usa machines is all the wash article are stuck together and never move with respect to another?

You might haven't not noticed the photos I posted, first with a stationary drum and the other with the revolving drum, it almost doesn't look like the same load!
And the photos were shoot only 30 seconds apart... so the clothes get continuous relative motion! And my machine is an especially crappy one! Go figure with a better one!

 

[3beltwesty]

Matt;

Most folks buy a washer to wash clothes, to save time. They really do not want to drive to the laundromat 3 or 4 times a year to wash bulky large items.

The average washer here is larger than ones sold in the UK.

*YOU* have the advantage of going to stores and actually looking at all those small 24" frame machines; we do not.

A small 24" frame washer that you think we all should own is really not marketable to the average Joe/Jane homeowner here in the USA. It is like marketing a stove that has less burners than 4, or a pickup that will not haul a 4x8 foot piece of plywood. It is like marketing a TV in Europe that cannot watch soccer, nobody would buy them.

One could in theory mail order a 24" Miele for the home for 2 to 3 thousand dollars, or by that cheap 600 buck Sears 24" machine via a catalog and hope repairs will not be absurd.

Here in the USA most folks do not buy washers then have never looked at before in person.

Most pickup trucks and clothes washers here are never always used "full"; they only are partial full.

If one has a fleet of trucks and washers; one can have many different sizes of them and use the size required for each job.

A single user here is not going to buy a small truck or washer and rent a larger one 2 to 4 times a year. One gets eaten up in rental costs, insurance with the truck, round trip costs with the laundromat trips for bigger wash jobs.

The average truck or washer buyer buys the product and does consider it's max capacity for large odd few jobs each year.

Here *IF* there was via pure magic several name brand 24" frame machines at local stores for folks to look at, there might be actual sales to Joe the Plummer and Suzie homemaker.

The market here is not 24" frame machines at all. Europe probably has more 10x to 50X more users of 27" machines than we have of 24" machines here.

Nobody here has a mindset of filling up their grocery basket, washer or pickup truck. The do what is required to do the job.

The water level and electricity and soap go up with larger washer load sizes, thus the is no reason to fill a washer always full.

 

[haxisfan]

Full loads are boring...

Hi there, I find full loads boring especially if you're the only one who deals with the laundry... smallish to medium loads are quicker to dry, fold and put away. If i must overload the washer cos' I've got a lot of stuff in the hamper then I would make sure that they are all colourfast items and I set the washer on the longest possible cycle.

I wash dark items on a daily basis as I get lots of sweaty stuff from the gym but they're always small loads, say... up to 3kg and my machine has a dry clothes capacity of 6kg... so, it kind of looks half full when the clothes are wet. I am actually obsessed with weighting my loads almost everytime, altough I by now learned to recognise how big a load is by timing the amount of water the washer takes during the main wash: however this can be misleading cos' some loads are more absorbent than others. I also tend to use a different wash programme for loads bigger than 3kg... say a cycle with a main wash which lasts over half an hour but I prefer a 20 minute main wash for small loads. Do you do that too?

Nice thread... thanks.

 

[3beltwesty]

Delema; 24" frame machines are not at stores for us to b

A person who moves to USA and wants to look at a 24" Machine at Home Depot, Sears, Lowes has the problem that theses stores do not normally carry oddball, freak, exotic items.

Thus if in Anywhere USA, one as a newcomer to the USA can dream about that Miele, Candy, LG or Hotpoint FL 24" frame washer "back home".

If I move to Europe; I might want a 249 to 600 buck 27" frame washer too when I am in Germany or the UK, but might wonder why Europe has few 27" models.

At super sales last fall, one had TL washers at only 249 dollars that had a smaller capacity than my FL Lg washer. These had few features and have an agitator that is more shreading than better TL washers.

Thus from a practical standpoint, buying a smaller machine locally means a lower quality machine.

There are no small 24" frame machines of mid quality for us to even look at and buy locally; there is a ZERO market for them for homes, a trickle niche market for yachts and work boats. .

The average Joe equates mail/internet ordering a small 24" frame washer as a massive waste. It costs more than a machine bought locally; one that can be returned easier if is DOA or a lemon. The purchase is absurd, one pays more for a machine that is smaller and the purchase is riskier too.

 

[3beltwesty]

How the average washer is bought here

The average USA homeowner has their old washer then finally it starts to leak, get flakey, bearings are shot. OR it works perfectly and the wife wants a better machine too.

The repair estimates on an older machine means often one lives with old leaky beast and shops for a new washer.

If the old machine dies of a heart attack one often uses a laundromat and buys another machine ASAP.

One goes and looks at all the washers at local stores and gets confused.

One often waits to a super sale to cut the cost if one has the time.

One can look at 200 washers and never see Europe's beloved 24" frame machines, nor see Elvis or a washer made for UFOS either.

The steel box a modern FL washer or dryer here can/might sit on is a huge item to make a profit out of, they cost about 100 + bucks each.

There really no 24" frame machines where one buys a washer in the USA at a local store.

Thus non USA folks here might wish there were 400 buck Miele's here with 24" frames at our stores. There is not even a Candy 24" frame machine for 2000 dollars either.

Here the more one pays for a washer at a local store; the BIGGER it is in stated cubic feet.

It is an issue of marketing, a smaller machine at a local store costs less.

 

[3beltwesty]

Massive undertaking to hawk a small machine in the USA

Here is the latest sales flier from Home Depot; a store that sells building supplies.

All are 27" frame machines

FL

4.0 CUFT LG WM2140CW 599 DOLLARS
4.3 CUFT LG WM2350HRC 899 DOLLARS

TL

4.3 CUFT GE GTWN5050MWS 499 DOLLARS

4.3 CUFT MAYTAG MVWC400XW 499 DOLLARS

5.0 CUFT MAYTAG BRAVOS MVWX600XW 599 DOLLARS

5.0 CUFT MAYTAG POWERWASH 999 DOLLARS

5.2 CUFT LG WT5001CW 899 DOLLARS

5.2 CUFT LG WT5101HW 999 DOLLARS


This flyer has more TL washers than FL washers. Last November it was the reverse.

***IF*** one arrived from Europe and wanted a 24" frame machine here locally; there are none.

If one wanted a small machine that only holds 2 to 2.5 cubic feet, no local store sells them; ie has them in stock.

If non USA folks really think a small 24" frame machine will sell here, they should just make them and see if we will actually buy this product. This is a massive undertaking

 

[Pingmeep]

It's a tad better north of the border...

Here in Canada as to showroom selection for a 24inch machines from big stores (Lowes, Home Depot, Sears)and specialty appliance stores are around too. While shopping for "compact" washers and dryers for the parents, sister and myself, I could choose between Miele, AEG, LG, Samsung, Bosch and few others and actually see machines in store. They aren't cheap though although sometimes you will see one in flyers.

Still the one factor that remains is Canadians value capacity. IEC cubic feet are close to king. Most buyers want enough capacity but don't want "monsters". "That machine must be made for Americans!" Was uttered several times while I was on showroom floors when people saw the Ultra Capacity machines.

Washing habits are also different here. There's a generational divide between people who pretreat to the point of hand washing prior to putting a load into a machine (mostly older people) and those who just trust that their so so detergent and machine will do okay and are ready to re-wash if necessary. Also some are laundry day people others are laundry through the week people.

As to whether they can clean a full load or even a typical half load the jury is still out.

I personally like some of the Frigidaire Affinity line for 27 inch frame and can vouch for the cleaning of a full load of towels/clothes. The LG 1355HW 2.7 IEC cu.ft. 10.1kg washer beside me did a just did a very good job cleaning the mud and dog encrusted crud from a queen size feather duvet (no cover) on a Bulky, Water Plus, "Warm" cycle. But I think that has as much to do with a slight pre-treat with cold water Tide Free liquid and then a half way to the 1 marker in the dispenser drawer.

Other machines do not do as well but I have a hunch it's a general apathy of owners towards having multiple detergents on hand and actually dosing properly. The average Canadian customer is just now finally getting the message about dark color detergent and delicate fabric care. Tide is the best selling brand detergent here followed by Purex which just recently dethroned Sunlight. Cold water washes are the current fad.

 

[rapunzel]

Europeans tend to do laundry less frequently and save up for full loads. Most households over there will not do laundry daily just for the sake of it. It is considered time and money wise to wash full loads and do laundry less frequently. In the colder European countries people do not change their entire daily wardrobe after one wear. If their shirts, slacks and dresses aren't visibly dirty and they do not smell, they get hung out for an airing and are worn perhaps once or twice more.

Here in Oz, the States/Canada, people throw everything they wear only once straight into the hamper. Laundry is done daily, regardless of how much there is to wash. Standard washer capacity in most Euro homes is still between 4.5 and 5 kilos, whereas here and in US folks like to go with 6 kilos and up. If a two to four kilo load gets thrown into an eight or ten kilo washer there is going to be a lot of empty space.

In Germany the measure for a full load in a horizontal axis machine, was/is always to leave just enough space for a flat hand to fit through on top of the dry load. The way dj-gabriele loads his washer is how it is generally done in Europe and it works fine.

 

[launderess]

No 24" Washers To Be Found?

Depends upon where you are looking.

LG, Whirlpool, and Bosch to name a few still produce and sell such machines for the US market.

As for the American laundry market and "small" front loaders. While H-Axis machines either by choice or otherwise are making inroads to this country, European wash habits by and large still aren't.

Majority of Americans still insist on clinging to the ages old method of houskeeping; allowing the wash to pile up for a week (or longer), then finally attacking the situation. In some cases wash is not done until things become so desparate (that is all undergarments are soiled,including the emergency "big girl panties).

The other half of this custom involves doing all that washing quickly as possible, this in an effort to get the thing over with and move on. Large top loading washing machines with their fast cycles were perfectly suited to this task, however front loaders take longer. To stretch things out further by not being able to cram a normal "top loader" sized load into a H-Axis machine turned many US consumers off.

So now we have all those 27" and larger washers, however there is no such thing as a free lunch. Increased wash loads mean front loaders must have bearing and structural designs to cope. Some machines do this, others don't.

http://www.abesofmaine.com/item=LGWM1355HW~item.htm

 

[luv2wash]

Hi all! Why is this so puzzling? Do we not have many habits/customs that are very different from other countries?

I always assumed that Europeans had smaller machines as they didn't have the same space we have here for larger ones. I always see them in places like the UK installed in kitchens under counters.

This whole size thing has been on my mind lately. I'm in the market for new machines and while I think a 4.0 cu ft should be large enough, I like the idea of say 4.8 or 5.0 to wash my king/queen size quilts and such.

I do agree that it seems crazy to own such a large capacity machine if it will only be used occasionally for large items and yet it seems just as crazy to me to have the option to buy one but opt for smaller and trips to the laundry mat (it’s not Italy – everything is not just around the corner). I’m in Canada – do you have any idea how spread out we are here??

The larger capacity machines are engineered to use only the water needed for a smaller load so I don't see how they are wasteful if not full to capacity.

BTW, Miele states right in their manual for the W4842:

Important:
Fill the drum only 3/4 of the way. Items need room to move otherwise they might get caught in the drum door seal.

Washing tips:
Energy and water consumption
– Do not overload the washer. The energy and water consumption will be most energy efficient.
– Use the "Express" program for small loads.
– When smaller amounts of laundry are washed using the "Normal" and
"Sanitize" programs, the automatic load recognition feature will automatically reduce the water, energy, and time for that load.

I have peered into the compact Mieles on several occasions and I cannot wrap my head around using it for laundry.

I know several people with significant disposable income and they now have TWO sets of machines. One set on the top floor where bedrooms are and another set in a larger basement laundry.

I could only go for a "compact" size if it was one of two sets I owned (not that that will ever happen).

 

[3beltwesty]

America already booted the smaller FL washer 2 decades ago;

Most all will not buy a washer without looking at them first

America already booted the smaller FL washer 2 decades ago;

Most all Americans want to physically look at the washer before they buy one. Thus it really is moot that one can mail order a 24" LG, Whirlpool or Bosch. Only one in 100 to 1000 will do this. This is generally done for as luxury yacht or tug boat or a small condo set up.

The chance Joe Six pack homeowner will mail order a 24" frame machine are close to zero.

In Home Depots, Lowes, Sears etc in Alabama, Miss, Louisana, California, Tennessee, Georgia, Washington, Nevada, Indiana, Minn,Michigan,Iowa I have been at in the last 25 years, I have *never* seen a 24" frame washer.

Folks in Europe can mail order 27" machines too sight unseen. Then they can cry or demand a refund if the spec sheet has a bad dimension and the washer fits wrong.

The Westinghouse FL washers from 1941 to 1992 had smaller baskets than todays FL machines. The basket size from about 1962 to 1992 was the same size; about 22" in diameter and 12" deep. It is the same as the 1976 shot above where the Full comforter is about 1/4 out of the drum.

The average American does NOT want a small dinky washer like Westinghouse made for 50 years, it is unsaleable today. This is the 22"dia 12" deep size used for 30 years that is about a 2.5 to 2.6 actual cubic ft volume.

Whether a new machine is 24 or 27 " frame; either could be the 50 year old smaller size of 2.5 cubic ft.

25 years ago one could see the oddball Westinghouse FL washer at a few local stores; some of use bought them. Most DID NOT since they considered them too small

It would cost the same to build a small 2.5 cuft machine as a current machine, but would have to be priced higher since few buy them. Production volumes have to be decent to absorb the tooling costs.

Here I have used FL washers now for 50 years, The reason folks bought them eons ago was to save water and they tore up clothes less, plus the cycle times were shorter. The longest time on my 1976 FL washer is 42 minutes; 15 minutes of it is wash. Stuff that is not too dirty can be washed for 5 minutes and one can skip one rinse and have the stuff done in 22 minutes. The new machine will do this too with a short wash, but it does not wash as well at times.

FL washers have been around in the USA since right before WW2, it is really nothing new.

The Westinghouse FL washer was as already mentioned about the same basket size from 1962 to 1993; that 2.5 cubic foot 22" dia basket that is 12" deep. The 1976 Westy here was the washer with least water usage in a CR 1978 report; 30 gallons. They also mentioned its short total wash times of 42 min max; with 32 to 37 minutes being for less dirty loads.

*********America already booted the smaller FL washer 2 decades ago; it was NOT that the American FL washer (62 to 1992) had a long wash time or used a lot of water, it was too damn small in volume compared to the normal TL washer most were use to using.

Folks here do not want a dinky washer anymore. The old 1947 and 1976 westys here were used with a Family of 6.

Most Americans never really used a home FL washer before 1992. Thus to "compete" washer makers PURPOSELY made the 1990's new FL washers BIGGER, what folks wanted.

 

[nrones]

Candy

This is a regular load in my 7kg 40cm deep Candy
Video is in a link

 

[ronhic]

Dejan...

Great to see a fully loaded machine doing a good job....and quiet too!

 

[3beltwesty]

The catch 22

Here are some 24" machines one can special/mail order here in the USA.

A large city like LA,NY,Chicago etc might have one in stock to look at.

Here in a smaller area where I live there are still over 8 places that carry washers and non in the over 100 I looked at was a smaller 24" frame.


Bosch WAS20160UC 24" washer

Whirlpool WFC7500VW White 24" Washer

WCVH4800KWW GE 24" Front Load Washer

LG WM1355HR 2.7 cu. ft. Capacity Compact Front Load Washer

LG WM1355HW 2.7 cu. ft. Capacity Compact Front Load Washer

LG WM3431HW 24", 2.44 Cu. Ft. Washer/Dryer Combo

Thin Twin 24" Washer - Gas Dryer - LTG5243DQ

In the 2 year old link bellow there is dialog about folks worrying about a 24" machine. What is interesting is the question of washing a Queen sized comforter is raised; one larger than the FULL size one that cannot go into the old 1976 2.6 cuft westy without forcing.

The catch 22 is that many of us who many order stuff without seeing the items only have reviews by others to gather +/- feedback. When a model has few reviews the risk is higher.

Is it common for folks in non USA places to buy their washers without looking at one; or by internet/mailorder?

http://ths.gardenweb.com//forums/load/laundry/msg021806431288.html?6

 

[haxisfan]

@ 3beltwesty

Of course it is common to buy a washer, dishwasher, dryer, online... you name it... well, it is for me here in the UK and I know of others who have done the same; however I presume we'd have seen the item live or have gathered enough info on it before venturing into purchasing it. I even ordered a few ig appliances online from the UK through an Italian online store (although it'd even be possible to buy from a UK store but it'd incur higher delivery charges for obvious reasons) and delivered to Italy without me being there (some1 else got them on my behalf). Nonetheless my regret was that of not having been able to use them long enough to take advandage of the warranty should a fault occur... it was actually the case in one instance where a fault developped way after the expiration of the warranty period albeit the limited usage rate of the appliance.

Bye

 

[3beltwesty]

RE "however I presume we'd have seen the item live&#

Hexifan;

Would you buy a washer "online" that you:

Have never seen before (in person at a store or friend's house) ;

That has few ratings,

one that is not in any store one can vist in a day's travel?

Here in the usa, not being able to look at a device puts a damper on the purchase for the average washer buyer.

 

[haxisfan]

Whoops... I might have misread your previous comments

Sorry 3beltwesty... I wasn't aware of these facts you've just highlighted. I wouldn't conclude a purchase under those circustances... unless there was a piddly amount of money involved... then I'd gamble it... like when I got my infrared massager which was delivered to me within a week.

 

[dj-gabriele]

Internet purchases:

I bought ALL the appliances for the new kitchen on-line (oven, hobs, dishwasher, hood, sink and faucet too!) as between buying them in the official SMEG shop and the least expensive internet retailers, there were just a little less than 600 euros of savings! In other words we got the dishwasher for free if we were top pay the "real life shop" prices! And think that they were already discounted by 15% as we were getting a full kitchen set!
Same was for the new washing machine! 320 euros delivered vs. 349€ plus 15€ delivery in the "real life shop"!

The washing machine came damaged by the courier, calling Candy (oh shit, a Candy washing machine! Hahahhaha!) in two days resolved the issue, they came with a new soap drawer and fascia et voilà! The machine is still running perfect!

Now, I must point out that I've never seen that washing machine before it was delivered nor my parents did!
Same goes for the kitchen appliances, I saw them on the official SMEG shop in Reggio Emilia but they didn't see them at all in real life, only on the online catatalogue and later on the printed one, were satisfied of the technical data and aesthetics and then gave me the go to buy them (online of course!)

After all if you don't like what you bought you have 10 days to send it back at no expense at all! The seller even has to refund you of your shipping charges!

 

[launderess]

Purchasing Appliances Online

Sight unseen.

Gosh 3BeltWesty, better not spread that around. I mean it must be aliens or something buying all those washing machines and other appliances from eBay, CL, ABT appliances, Sears online, and god only knows how many scores of other places "online" where one can shop.

There are fewer and fewer "brick" store locations every year selling appliances. Wonder why that is and where consumers are going with their money? If the average consumer is so keen on shopping locally where are the sales?

Furthermore one of the number one complaints from "brick" stores is that consumers (average or otherwise), come into their premises, spend endless hours looking at appliances/engaging sales persons, then go elsewhere (mainly to Internet vendors), to make their purchases.

Those of us of a certain age may like to read the lables/kick the tires in person before we buy, but youngsters coming up seem to have no such quibbles. Indeed one of the hottest trends this past holiday shopping season was the use of "apps" allowing one to scan in a barcode (sku#, or other information), and instantly compare prices for an item from both brick and Internet sites. Use of these apps will only grow and spells nothing but bad news for physical location stores. It is simply not possible to meet the prices someone who does not have the same costs, nor often must charge the same taxes.

For someone making several appliance purchases, the savings of shopping online can be substantial. This forces whomever is doing the supplying to crunch numbers and find ways to compete. They will either have to thrown in extras to make up the difference, or take a hit with a small loss hoping to make it up in "good will".