Water in the Window

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Not to inflame Kelly, but...

We have a Kenmore Elite E3 and I have to say we love the damned thing. We bought it at the dreaded Sears due in part to their zero percent financing thing. Yes, it was hugely over-priced at $1,500 (including the stand - which I would not do without), but having been in the banking biz, I saw the built-in "catch" in the zero-percent financing deal and we had it fully paid before the outrageous finance charges kicked in at precisely one second past the 365th day. Kelly is correct in saying Sear's finacing arm is a bunch of devious thieves - but if you recognize their tricks ahead of time, you can outsmart them. They're far too dependent upon their assumption that all consumers are "too stupid" to know the details, so you can beat then at their own game if you understand the financing thing at the get-go.

Why do we love our washer? Limited water usage was the big reason for purchase. We live in a rual area and our household water comes from a well. After two years of drought we had valid concerns for the health and well being of our well's ability to continue to supply water. Our old TL was a contractor-grade Hotpoint cheapie, whose variance between "high" and "low" water levels might have been about 1/2 cup of water - it used 48 U.S. gallons of water per load - stated as being about 15 pounds of clothing. The HE3 takes up to 20 pounds and uses a max of 15 gallons. So far (after about 3 years), our reaction has been "that thing gets out everything" in terms of soiled laundry.

I agree that the preset controls for water levels, etc. is not terrific, but seems to get the job done. I've managed to fool the fairly impressive fuzzy-logic controls by stopping a wash cycle; switching to rinse/spin; stopping that before it starts its drain cycle; then firing up a new wash cycle - this has been a reasonably successful method for getting extra water into the wash cycle - not flawless, as sometimes it will recognize that there's water in the tub and drain it - but it has worked with a fair amount of regularity. The adaptive, "fuzzy" logic can't always be predicted as it is constantly changing its own behavior.

I once watched the fuzzy logic struggle for 20 minutes trying to balance a load, pre-spin, that included a rubber bathmat. It tossed that load back and forth and aborted about six spins before I gave in, stopped the machine and hauled the bathmat out - sudenly, all was well - it could balance the remaining load and dutifully went into its insanely fast spin - highest speed looks like it could warp time into the past. I fear if I spun woolens at that speed, I'd find a machine full of wet, seriously angry sheep.

The plus on having the stand is it's large, seamless plastic drawer- in trying to fool the logic, on occasion you have to cancel the entire program to get the door to unlock. If this happens when water-level is bove the door, the open drawer handily catches the overflow of water.

We did not buy the matching HE3 dryer - ridiculously priced at $1,000. At the time the crummy Hotpoint dryer was still working - it died about a year later and was replaced with a Whirlpool from the local dealer who misquoted the price on a closeout model inadvertently giving us about $300 off the "correct" price - bought it on the spot. It was a gas model and the gas company charged us 10 cents more than the purchase price (had to be converted from natural gas to LP gas) to install it, but it's all good in the end.
 
All this about inflexible water levels is just another ramification of *too much computer control* to make things that *idiots can use* but that drive anyone with brains raving mad.

As for "can't get the stink out of sweaty clothes," the computer-control enthusiasts are working on that issue, and when they're done, the Smellotronic Washer will be released to the public. This will come with an automatic Snifferator that can tell when your sweaty clothes are clean enough (even if you can't tell the difference!).

What really makes sense is to just go back to the old mechanical controls as far as possible, and then have two water controls, one for wash and one for rinse, so you can adjust each separately. A little less water for wash, a little more for rinse, for example.

My preferred version of a FL would have basically manual controls. (Uh oh, heresy department!).

The Wash section would have a knob with three settings, Gentle, Normal, Strong. Next to that, a time selector, 0 - 15 minutes. Next to that, a water selector marked arbitrarily 0 - 10, and a water temp selector marked from cold to 200 degrees. Finally a Start button. The Rinse section would basically duplicate the Wash section but you could set up different times and water levels and temps, and agitation strength. The point of this is so you don't have to fiddle with the controls on the Wash section when you want to rinse. The Spin section would have a 3-position selector: 600, 900, 1100 rpm, and a timer 0 - 5 minutes, and a Start button. The only concessions to electronics would be a temperature indicator and a water meter that would show gallons or litres from the time you closed the door to the time you opened it (i.e. for the full cycle), and a power meter showing KWH used for the entire process (down to hundredths).

You load your laundry & detergent into the machine, set up the controls as needed, and press the Start button on Wash. It fills, heats, agitates, and then when done, drains and stops. Next you press Start on the Spin section, perhaps set to 900 rpm for 2 minutes. It does its thing and then stops. Next you press Start on the Rinse section, and it follows the settings you've dialed in, and does its thing and then stops. Press Spin again. Press Rinse again. Repeat until you don't see suds in the rinse water. Then change the Spin settings for final spin, perhaps 1100 rpm for the full 5 minutes, and press Start.

Yes, it means you have to stick around and go into the laundry room and press a button every five to fifteen minutes. For most of us here that wouldn't be a problem because we're watching the washer anyway. And I'll bet that a machine like this could be used off-grid in houses running on solar (turn off the water heater) and would be highly efficient in terms of electricity consumption.

I suspect that having the water and power meters on there will encourage people to tweak their cycles to optimize efficiency without compromising cleaning, i.e. "how little water and power can I use while still doing the job effectively?" That's been the experience with automobiles whenever MPG indicators are fitted: people subtly change their driving habits so they still get where they're going on time but don't use as much gas to get there. Best of both worlds.

Question is, if one wanted to build something like this "from scratch" by hacking an existing FL, what machines would be suitable for hacking this way (both new and vintage machines)?
 
Converts!

It begs the question. I read and reread posts from US washing machine users who grew up on top loading washers. A majority of posts are like trying to convince ourselves to go to hell in an effort to begin looking forward to the trip. Few simply say, OMG, I love this machine and it is 2,000 times superior to anything I ever used before! The posts from US users read more like a lament and a speil to sell homeland security. If you say it long enough you might begin to believe it has merit and in some small way it is good for you. Front load machines are good for manufacturing and the reduction of water used per load. They are not always good for creating sparkling clean laundry. I am one US washing machine enthusiast who loves a good front load show, but wants a top loader to soak, wash, and rinse my amazing wardrobe to a dazzling result.
How can I be Laundry Man, if I can't remove the stains of the world!
My front load friends soak in buckets and sinks and slop stuff around in their belief and devotion to being a good environmentalist, not because they are thrilled with the results.
Kelly
 
They are not always good for creating sparkling clean laundry

Well, I myself and everybody I know over here in the UK get sparkling clean laundry out of our frontloaders without any pretreating! FWIW, the toploading coinop Maytag I used didn't wash anywhere as near as well as my frontloaders with the same amount of detergent and no pre soaking. Although I must admit, the Speed Queen toploaders I have used were certainly impressive.

Jon
 
Consistent Reply

I sense that we are not comparing apples with apples in American front loaders and those from Europe. In the US we have not had the experience of on board water heaters. My questions and responses and insightare based on the personal use and comparison of US models. It is very interesting to see the difference in the FL machines from here and across the water.
Kelly
 
there ARE a lot of people very happy with their front loaders. if the Duet can get my friends HUGE loads clean, there must be something happening correctly.
 
I've certainly been happy with my Frigidaire. I never pretreat stains, I never use a pre-wash or an extra rinse. I get excellent results with highly stained loads of kitchen whites using temp-controlled cold water, powdered (not liquid) Tide Cold Water and liquid chlorine bleach. If it's a BobLoad, I'll sometimes add an extra 10 minutes to the wash time. Designgeek, I'm with you---I'd rather see mechanical timers which are easy for the user to manipulate if desired.

Again, the more I take into consideration all the changes I've seen in FL'ers the past couple of years, I'm hanging onto my old school '03 FL'er. Even if it doesn't have a huge tub and riser platforms and computerized controls. Frankly, I'm glad it doesn't have oversudsing sensors and a 10-minute balancing act before it spins.
 
Complete Bliss

A zillion thank yous to all how posted, for your combined input. I am thrilled to have learned so much about the function and personalities of machines I may never have the opportunity to use.
At the end of the wash day, it really is all about me and you and the machine with which we are satisfied and fulfilled. The really fun part is: Time and technology make that a moving target.
The thrill of the hunt.
 
Jon, re. Maytag TL: "same amount of detergent" as you use in the FL, is the problem there. More water requires more detergent to maintain the same concentration of detergent in the water. So you have to increase the detergent dose, and then you'll get equivalent results.

(Conversely anyone who tries putting a TL dose into an FL will be treated to a suds overflow and a clean floor as a side-effect:-)
 
True. Still, the Speed Queen toploaders that I used a year before (same holiday destination, just used a different launderette) managed to clean what seemed a larger load with a standard frontload dose of detergent. Have to say the Maytag DC coinops seemed to leave lint all over the load too, whereas clothes out of the Speed Queen were lint free, and actually quite well cleaned and rinsed too.

Jon
 

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