What is the difference between new "filters" in DW as opposed to Food Choppers?

[mtn1584]

I have a Maytag, my mom a WP, my brother a KA, and my ex a high end Maytag, all have food choppers> Why did manufacturers with the exception of the Maytag line of WP dishwashers switch to this manual cleaning filter system? I don't get it!! I load my dishwasher without rinsing, with food particles etc. Do these new filter models work as well as those with food choppers?
Mike

 

[mtn1584]

and the Samsung explosion...........

http://https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpH-3cxm9O0

 

[mtn1584]

sorry, sent the above post to the wrong thread!
MIKE

 

[henene4]

Germany always had filters. For me, a chopper never made sense. You food is crushed, than partially catched by a screen with quite big holes so a lot of waste is recycled with the wash water. Than, during drain, the counter flow flushes that screen.
On a (at least somewhat well designed DW) with filter, all the waste is caught by a fine screen mesh which works just like the chopper blade screen, just way more effective. Than, again, during drain, the counter flow caused by the drain pump port being on the "dirty" filter side flushes the screen again. But because way more food is caught and the amount of water used per fill gets smaller and smaller every year, this flushing effect is not enough to clean the filter 100%. So you just have to rinse the filter about once a month to compensate that "problem". And owning a machine with filter, we clean the filter once a month (thats just a matter of 5 minutes) and sometimes I don't even need to use a brush or so. Its really a minor amount of dirt left.

 

[gusherb]

We have a 2006 Maytag with the grinder and I hated it right from the beginning, mainly because someone washed some candle holders that still had the little metal wick holders in the bottom and they got sucked into the pump and couldn't be retrieved without taking the whole thing apart. I also don't like the sounds it makes when it's grinding up large particles.

I was happy when I saw the new dishwashers had filters again.

 

[launderess]

IIRC The Debate/Divisoin Over Filters versus Macerators

Have never understood the need for macerators as one does not use a dishwasher as a food disposal. That is things are scrapped well before going into the machine. What one expects is some system to keep yibbles off my dishes and flushed away.

My older Kenmore/Frigidaire even with a filters and macerator left yibbles all over dishes, especially the upper rack. My *new* GE Mobile Maid does not have a grinder nor advanced filtration system but give streets ahead performance. Food goes down the drains and yes one does see the odd bits of rice, oats, or kernel of corn in the sink strainer but long as they aren't on my dishes am happy.

One supposes the purpose of a macerator is to grind up larger bits of food so they will not harm the pump/impeller system, clog things up and or be flung at dishes. Again if the things are well scrapped and there is a decent filtration system in place do not see the need.

Oh having a macerator probably helps keep sinks/drains from being clogged by large food bits. However advice as above still applies.

Read somewhere years ago one of the benefits of not having a macerator is that filter only units tended to be more quiet. Given often tight living quarters of some European kitchens one assumes dishwasher silence is of high value.

 

[frigilux]

Benefits of manual-clean filtration system:

1) Requires less water to keep particles from redepositing on dishes during cycle.
2) Allows for quieter operation.
3) Gives people something to gripe about.

 

[murando531]

If a chopper and filter system is done right, like the WP PowerClean, and even the later tall tub version, the accumulator works quite well. In both my WP built Maytag, and now the PowerClean, I've yet to find a speck of anything on a dish or anywhere in the interior. Upon taking the wash arm away to expose the fine mesh filter underneath, there isn't a bit of food waste to be seen, so it keeps itself incredibly clean in the process. I'm not sure where the "food is catched by a screen with quite big holes" part comes from, because the mesh screening is so fine that a needle couldn't pierce through without stretching/tearing a hole.

I also don't understand the conceived notion that a machine with a disposal blade is louder than one with a filter. As though in the midst of the motor hum and the sound of water jetting around the interior someone can actually differentiate the sound of a small spinning blade. To test this, I disassembled the Point Voyager Maytag and removed the blade and grinding screen altogether, and reassembled it and ran an empty rinse cycle. Not a bit of difference in sound. And it's not as though the chopper is constantly grinding something during the entire cycle, unless you're filling the detergent cup with BBs or pennies. I've heard mine buzz on something once since having it, most likely a tiny seed or something, and it was gone within a minute. Every filter model I've heard in person has been just as "noisy" as anything with a blade.

 

[frigilux]

Neither of the machines you mention are particularly quiet to begin with, so it is not surprising you don't hear a difference without the grinder. Add a grinder to a machine rated 43 decibels or lower and you'll hear the difference. Motors and pumps on the newest machines are so small, quiet, and energy-efficient that nearly anything can be heard over them.

 

[murando531]

The machines are in no way silent, but I don't consider a soft hum and a little muffled water sloshing to be loud. When standing next to it in the kitchen you can tell that it's on, but it's a soothing sound. Once you're past the bar and sitting into the adjacent living room area, which has no wall or doorway dividing from the kitchen, you can barely tell it's on, unless of course the house is dead silent besides the dishwasher. Even still, it's in no way disturbing or annoying, and I have no desire to sleep next to it or sit in front of it with someone and have a conversation, and further still it wouldn't be enough to disrupt either scenario.

 

[frigilux]

You're right: Those machines aren't loud. I grew up with a 1974 Kenmore, so I know loud. I'm just saying they produce enough sound that adding a grinder to the mix isn't noticeable. Put a grinder on my GE and you'll definitely hear the added hum.

I honestly don't mind taking 5 seconds to rinse off a filter every two weeks in trade for not hearing that extra hum. Nor do I mind single-rack washing systems with their smaller, quieter motors and pumps. Every one I've had has been an excellent cleaner. Yes, Normal and Heavy cycle times are longer, but the Express (30 mins.) or Light (49 mins.) cycles do a fine job on food prep dishes, so relatively fast, consecutive loads during day-long cooking adventures are still viable.

As has been mentioned before, I often spend the better part of a day in the kitchen on weekends with the dishwasher running consecutive loads the whole time. Under those circumstances, a nearly silent machine is a gift. When I load the machine and leave the kitchen for another room, you're right; it isn't quite so important.

 

[jerrod6]

2006 Miele with filter.  I check it once a month or month in a half, but there is almost never anything in it. Rinsing it doesn't even take 1 minute.  I turn the crank to remove it, run it under the spray on the kitchen sink, put it back in and turn the crank to seat it.  It's done.  I don't rinse anything just scrape, and with burned on food, scraping doesn't work anyway, so it just goes in along with everything else.

 

I think todays detergents with enzymes help to break down bits of food and that also should help any machine deal with dirty bits.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

whirlpool dishwasher

I have a Whirlpool Gold dishwasher with a food grinder in it. It does have spray arms operating at once. Food grinders are always better because there's no filter to clean. Whirlpool needs to go back to the point voyager design!

 

[henene4]

As this thread came up again with such an answer...

Grinders are not a care-free system, no never-maintanance warranty.
What if a glass breaks during a wash cycle? What if little bones work there way into the machine? Or one of these wire bag-ties?
If a little bone somehow works it way to the food chopper, you probably have a broken grinder. Period.
If a glass breaks, you probably have to remove the whole filter/wash assembly in the sump area to clean it out.
We even had members who had a bag-tie working its way to the grinder, leaving him with a loud and barley usable machine. He had to do the whole disasambling procedure which takes from start to finsih a good part of an hour, maybe half an hour if you already did it several times.
No matter which szenarios of these, with a filter-system, you have follow 5 simple steps, you do not need a screw driver and you are finished in a matter of 5 minutes:
1. Take filter(s) out.
2. Rinse filters.
3. Check sump.
4. Clean sump of eventual bigger items (such as bones, bag ties, pieces of glass etc.).
5. Put filters back in.
Further, most machines here in Europe now even allow you to remove blockages from your drain pump with the removal of only 1 torx T20 screw.
And a filter system keeps it self clean the same way your grinder does: Counter flow. The drain pump on either systems is placed in a manner that any time it activates, water flows through the filter in an opposite direction, draining away most residues.
And the only reason filter models require these basic step of maintanance every or every other month is that they simply have bigger and more efficent filter areas.
To end my argumentation, here are 2 videos:
1. One of a German TV show for kids. The machine is special demonstration model (made by Miele). Of course, it has filters, and at arround 6:30, you can oerfrctly see how the counter-flow works.

2.An example procedure on what you have to do to clean a DW with grinder.

 

[nmassman44]

That video is of a Miele dishwasher, like mine. I love the video since it shows how effective the wash system is and filtration as well. I have my dishwasher set to nag me at 40 loads to clean the filter and there usually isn't anything on the filter pot. I open the hatch for the fine filter hopper and get anything out that maybe in there.
Eugene there is a grinder in your GE dishwasher believe it or not and why GE would put one after the filter is beyond me. The one we have in the tenants apartment is doing well and it's a year old now so no issues whatsoever. Plus it's quiet as well. I am amazed at the water power that the GE has...the lower arm shoots jets right to the top of the tank and the middle and upper arm have plenty of power when they are in use.
The loudest dishwasher I ever used has to be a belt drive Maytag reverse rack JetClean dishwasher. 2nd loudest was the KitchenAid portable. The Maytag didn't have a grinder but you knew when that dishwasher was running. The KitchenAid wasn't all that bad but one could hear the swoosh of the water jets from the 4 way HydroSweep. That dishwasher was a one arm wonder, but a pain in the ass to load. If one had all plates for the lower rack then it was fine, anything else...not so much. I did love my Whirlpool PowerClean Quiet Partner dishwasher in my house in Omaha...that thing had so much power and anything I put into it came clean. Never had to clean anything twice from that machine.