Which? Detergent Tests 30°C Jan 2009

[nickuk]

Well, I'm not sure if people have a `general dislike' of P and G proucts, this would suggest irrational bias and I think most folk round here are objective about these matters.

But I'm definitely in the camp which doesn't like the Ariel Excel Gel. I totally echo MRX's comments about it, couldn't have put it better myself. But that doesn't mean I'm going to refer to those who like it as `P and G lovers'! Different products suit different people and different machines, for sure, but I also think it's unfair to suggest that those who haven't been impressed with Excel Gel somehow have inferior machines or less good laundry practise.....

Needless to say for me I prefer S+M. I'm also about to try the Tesco version of it (bought it today for a worryingly low price of £1.64) - drawer dosing, smells ok (like the old Sainsburys / Henkel liquid to my nose) so we'll see how that copes. Made in the Netherlands?? I have no idea what it is.

I'm not sure about Which's agenda sometimes (I really can't make up my mind if it is totally unbiased or not), it does seem bizarre that Ariel keeps coming top at everything in every category based on my experieces. The only category I would put Ariel top for is the standard bio liquid. I'm not bashing Ariel as I really like the `green' tablets and use them often though they're a bugger to rinse. I do think the standard liquid is an excellent product (the best liquid)for pretreating / handwashing / top loaders but I'm not mad on the scent either, and I don't like dosing devises clonking about.

I'll post back on the Tesco if there are any revolutionary findings.

 

[MrX]

I think we should come up with our own standard testing methodology for AW.org

That way we can put machines and detergents through their paces.

Any methodology should look at NORMAL programmes i.e. not excessively long 60C cotton washes.

Something that reflects REAL use i.e. shortish 40C cotton wash.

Performance on stain removal
Rinsing etc

 

[paulc]

Iam a bad person!

I let my principles slide Iam afraid....I don't usually use P&G products....but it's a NEW detergent for crying out loud and I just had to try it! As much as it pains me to say it I really like it.....gets things fantastically clean on the "short" options in my miele 1613 at 30 deg, although sometimes it doesn't rinse well ( soft scottish water ). I found the Febreeze version wasn't as good as the ordinary bio. I do occasionally chuck a scoop of vanish crystal white in with the white towels as like many I do think that continuous use of liquid detergent will dull whites after a time. Also my partner has underwear and T shirts made of bamboo, these seem to have rotted, I don't know if this is just down to the fabric or the high level of enzymes in Ariel exel.

mrx......I think your idea for testing detergents is great! I personally would like to see a compact powder on the market again that gave the results that Persil Micro ( is that right?) use to but without dissolving your clothes!

 

[jetcone]

Well I learned two new terms tonight

"manky dishclothes" and "bubble lovers" I don't know which I like better!!

Thank you Laundress for the clarification on SASIL, I was wondering what that was!!

I came to hate the Zeolite phase in detergents, it always left a horrid gritty ring in the Unimatic Frigidaires and ABC-0-Matic tubs!! It was so bad I had to wipe them out after every wash and we have very soft water here in Boston, 3 grains.
I am glad the formulators are moving on from this phase and hope the new branched chain and linear chain surfactants prove themselves out to surpass the Zeolite phase. It would be preferable to have a formula with two surfactants instead of one with a surfactant and a zeolite on board!

 

[2drumsallergy]

Compact Powders

Hi Paul,
It is my understanding the there is a new Compact Ariel Powder due out early next year.

The Persil you are thinking of is the notorious Persil Power, it used a Manganese based bleach activator and did clean brilliantly but unfortunately it also dissolved cotton fabrics. It also reacted with certain fabric dyes changing their colour. Interestingly P&G had already researched the Manganese activator ingredient used in Persil Power but discovered it was totally unsuitable for use in laundry detergents.
I had a number of pairs of Levis totally destroyed by Persil Power, my oldest and favorite pair of 501s literally disintegrated after one wash. I was not amused!

Personally I have not had any fabric damage issues with Ariel Excel Gel but no doubt it is crammed full of Enzymes. It is certainly possible that Cellulase could cause deterioration of cellulose plant fibres, but they would need to be damaged to begin with i.e. well worn.

I have never heard of Bamboo clothing, I imagine it feels a bit like Linen?

David

 

[sudsmaster]

I hadn't heard that branched chain or linear chain surfactants could replace water softeners like zeolites or complex phosphates in laundry detergents. Usually those are two separate functions, except of course in a natural soap, in which case one gets soap scum as a reward of dubious distinction.

I might have bestowed mild praise upon zeolites at some point, but only in the event that otherwise they might be replaced by just more cheap washing soda, which instead of leaving fluffy gray white lint everywhere will leave nasty cement-like hard water precipitates everywhere. STPP still is far and away the best laundry water softener out there, as well as being and excellent break, alkalinizer, saponifier, stain remover, etc. It is only for alleged environmental reasons that complex phosphates have been discouraged in laundry products - not out of any deficiency in their cleaning performance.

When I was research STPP vs. Zeolites some years back, I came across some articles that expressed concern about the effect that large amounts of zeolites in the municipal waste stream would have on sludging up waste water treatment plants. And that sludge would have to be disposed of somewhere. The argument (made by the Phosphate Industry Council, of course) was that the cost of dealing with zeolite sludge could be equivalent to the cost of removing phosphates from the waste stream, with the added benefit that the phosphate by-product, calcium phosphate, could be used in poultry feed and in fertilizers, further defraying the cost.The same articles proposed that phosphates further could play a beneficial role in fresh water bodies, by buffering the waters and thus counteracting the toxic effect of acid rain. But in such cases the main pollutant, nitrogenous compounds (such as nitrites/nitrates) must be tightly controlled or algal over-growth may occur.

 

[MrX]

It isn't that crammed full of enzymes, at least no more so than normal Ariel washing powder.

It doesn't contain cellulase.

EU Ingredients disclosure below for Excel Gel (Ireland)

http://www.scienceinthebox.com/cgi-bin/info-pg/showproduct.pl?lang=ga_IE&id=2258-1

 

[zanussi_lover]

which detergent tests - Reposting

2drumsallergy

Would you be able to post the 2008 laundry tablet tests, washing powder tests, and the liquids, as well as the dishwasher tablets.

on the subject of liquids i much prefer persil small and mighty/surf small and mighty to the P&G liquids.

 

[hoovermatic]

I have to say that have been using it since it came out, the bio and colour varients and am hugely impressed with its performance at 30 degrees, the lowest my machine will go - next stop cold. I have washed muddy jeans on cold with the colour gel and it seems to do exactly what it says on the tin. I have also had total success with white linen napkins with red wine, gravy and lipstick (not mine I hasten to add), all at 30 degrees. Am a total convert. Fragrance wise, I much prefer it to the Ariel powder i was using before although occasionaly, I find it a bit cloying. It tends to be obliterated by the softener mainly. I don't mind the dispenser but really dislike the packaging and it is very messy and troublesome when it comes to the last few doses. I have a feeling they may change it in the future.

 

[jetcone]

Yes Rich

Dial Corp has a new patent out on branched & linear chain surfactants. I think it is for a liquid formulation but am not sure.

In Australia they are allowing phosphates in the detergents becuase they are taking them out of the sewerage and reusing them again as fertilizer for farm lands. Their reasoning is that the world supply of phosphate is dwindling and so will continue to get scarce.
So its a win win over there. We should bite the bullet and do the same here.

 

[jetcone]

Manufacturers struggle with no Phosphates

Latey, I have been reading all the patents for DASH and WISK and now the newer lo sudsing "HE" detergent formulations. Almost 50 years later all the formulators are still struggling around the lack of Phosphates in their formulations. And to achieve the low sudsing are still using versions of the original DASH formulation with synthetic Surfactants today.
The patents all play it close to the chest because all these detergent companies get their base products from a handful of global chemical manufacturers so they don't really control their product. P&G does some unique research it appears, most others analyze what is already produced to see if with formulations they can gain an edge.

To be sure they are using fancier chemicals than what was available 50 years ago but the base formulations are still the same. Fatty acids neutralized with some kind of metal alkali and then a host of custom builders for suspension or machine protection, determined by what each formulator wants to push to distinguish their product.

Did anyone see the piece on Henkel and how they are trying to get back the lost market share in Asia? It took you through their testing labs and I found out that they feel the hardest stain to remove is Pumpkin Oil!

Now how many of you out there have come into contact with Pumpkin oil and had to wash it out???

 

[launderess]

That's what I'm saying about detergents designed for markets they will be sold.

For instance any self respecting detergent in GB, must deal with curry stains. A proper curry is almost like peanut butter and jelly to many in the UK,and not only those of Indian descent. Beetroots and other foods not often eaten in the US are common as well.

Also consider you are what you eat. Thus your waste (sweat, urine, and the lot), are going to reflect this. Americans on average tend to eat diets high in read meat and fats. This is going to effect the body oils which one excretes,which will end up on clothing just as sure as eating a diet heavy in garlic will make one smell like a Indian restaurant.

L.

 

[2drumsallergy]

Machine and Water Quality

Hi Nick,
I do not mean to suggest that people are using inferior washers, but as an Engineer I can tell you wash performance varies enormously between A rated machines. There is a huge difference between a machine that just meets A grade and one at the top of the A scale.
Another thing that greatly effects performance is water quality again this varies enormously depending on your location. I live in a very soft water area but the quality of the underground pipes effect the water greatly; before our mains were replaced there was a black buildup in the kettle. It was not scale and was easily brushed away but it proves that the old Cast Iron mains were contaminating the water within them.

By the way how did you get on with the Daisy Bio? I do find the Daisy Bio to be a good performer but I think it is quite harsh on the laundry and lacks the protection ingredients of Formil Aktive, Ariel or Persil. The Daisy Softener seems very good but quite thick and gloopy and I found it necessary to add a little water to help it flush out of the dispenser.

David

 

[MrX]

2DrumsAllergy,

The water quality in my area is absolutely excellent, it's extremely soft to the level that I get zero limescale build up in kettles etc.

I find the Aqualtis performs fantastically well on all of its cycles, however, I just don't like Ariel Excel Gel, I'm not a big fan of Persil S&M either. It's not a bad machine and it's not that I have a vendetta against P&G. I just find that powdered detergents do a MUCH better job because they contain various ingredients that can't be put in liquids at present.

I quite like Ariel, I just found their new scent was repulsive. It seems to have been toned down quite a lot. In general I find Ariel and Persil tend to perform pretty similarly, which is uneurprising given that they're both targeting the same market segment.

I tend to use colour powder detergents quite a lot and alternate between Ariel Colour and Persil Colour, but tend to stick to powder or tablet formats.

My main problem with the Ariel Excel Gel format is that I find the packaging 'cool' but totally impractical. It's trying to solve problems that don't exist.

1) The cap is hard and bangs around the drum. It's also slim enough to become wedged between the door seal and the glass porthole on my machine. I think it's quite a poor design.

2) The upside down nature of the package means that when you flick open the lid, there's often 'goo' all over the place. I end up storing the bottle 'upside down' to avoid this.

3) Why couldn't they just have a dosing pump like hand soap ? Just squeeze 2 squirts into the drum and start the cycle? I would find that handy!

I prefer the ability to just throw liquid straight into the drum or into the drawer and I feel Unilever got it right with Persil S&M in that regard. It's concentrated, yet it's free-flowing.

I am not a fan of dosing devices generally.

 

[dyson2drums]

Hey everyone, just went to my grans house yesterday to wash jeans because the Dyson is going mad now as it spins fine sometimes and sometimes goes mental and shkes the whole kitchen like mad! So took about 10 jeans to grans to wash in LG WM12220FD and experimented with ariel excel gel and used the quick 30 program with full 1200 spin and rinse+ and guess wat not over sudsing like in the dyson and clear rinsing and even though the smaller jeans were dirty with obvious stains they cleaned 100% on the quick 30 with 1200 spin and rinse+!
So powder is going o be used in Dyson and gel in LG!

Well, having to use the LG more often due to the Dyson going mad lately, however not planning to repair it as Dyson will charge about £95 or more!

Maybe, i might get an old hoover ecologic 1300 to go in the place of the Dyson as my mother wants an old simple reliable washer for a while then thinking of getting the LG 9kg steam about 2 years later!

Thanks every1!

 

[spoodles]

mrx

When it first came out the Excel Gel bottles just had a hole in the lid for dispensing, so drips were pretty normal, but they now have a squeezy ketchup bottle style valve on them which stops any leaks and drips.

I have to say that for me the dosing device is the quietest there has ever been. No clanging about whatsoever, unlike the old plastic balls or those old P&G rollerball things which were deafening! I've never found it trapped in the door in our Bosch. It tends to work its way inside the load after a while and so doesn't cause any problems or noise as a result. Even when it's 'loose', in a small load of t-shirts for example, it doesn't make any loud banging in the drum. Zips, metal fasteners etc. are the only things that seem to make any sort of noise in the drum for me.

Simon