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Yes, they do

While yes, the original patent does expire in twenty years; inventor can file again claiming "improvement", which starts the clock all over again. Well assuming the new patent is granted. https://patents.stackexchange.com/questions/10441/how-can-you-renew-an-expired-patent

Over the years P&G not only have improved their activated bleaching system, but the detergent powders it goes into as well.

Thus it isn't just the bleaching activator someone would need; but a formula for a powdered detergent that incorporated same *and* performed same or better as TWB.

Think this is original patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US4087369A/en

Then came another in 2003:https://patents.google.com/patent/US20040142844A1/en

From 1991: https://patents.google.com/patent/WO1992013798A1/en

More: https://patents.google.com/?inventor=Gerard+Marcel+Baillely

It isn't just the bleaching activator per se; but how things all come together to make a detergent that will perform as expected consistently.

Here is MSDS for the old Biz (by P&G)
https://hpd.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=16003096

If you click onto "Color Safe Bleach....." you get a listing of other activated oxygen bleach detergents/bleaches; all are P&G brands.

https://hpd.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=chem&id=1534

Here is the MSDS for a version of TWB powder: https://hpd.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=16030569

If you click on "Nonanoyloxy Benzene Sulfonate", the only products that have it are all from P&G (Tide).

P&G's (2008) purchase agreement: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1337298/000106880008000357/ex10p7.htm

[this post was last edited: 6/13/2018-06:35]
 
We still don't understand the environmental effects enzymes have when released into natural ecosystems, and they are a major cause of skin allergies. I simply couldn't use enzyme detergents if I wanted to, as I and all my family are severely allergic to them and suffer nasty skin rashes if we come into contact with enzyme-washed fabrics. The best solution is simply oxygen bleach and plenty of heat - and time. 65C for only 10 minutes, or 71C for three?! Hopeless!

...and of course, Which? here in the UK found that most machines don't get anywhere near the advertised temperatures. The worst offender was an AEG that peaked at 27C on a "60C" cycle!
 
Enzymes in laundry detergents/products

Are not generally cause of skin or other allergies.

https://www.nhs.uk/news/lifestyle-and-exercise/bio-washing-powder-rashes-a-myth/

Largest risk are to those employed in manufacturing and or those coming in contact with product dust or undiluted state. Hence the warnings on packets about breathing in dust or allowing the stuff to come into contact with skin.....

Outside of UK the concept of "non-bio" laundry detergents or whatever largely does not exist. That or those without said substances are either MOL or BOL products, and or perhaps designed to appeal to a certain segment of market.

Even detergents such as Dreft, Fairy and others designed for baby laundry contain enzymes. They are actually rather powerful at that; but also are made to rinse cleanly to lessen chances of skin irritation.

If enzymes were truly a major cause of skin irritation there would be statistically more cases reported; which there isn't.

What may be mistaken as an allergy to laundry product enzymes can be and often is related to other substances. Fragrances, types of surfactants used, preservatives and other things are far more likely to cause skin issues.
 
Rarely use 95c these days

Found the Hygiene cycle on my washer which holds 60c from cold for 12 - 15 minutes it works perfectly with Persil non bio and gets white cotton clean as boiling without the shrinkage and the creasing so its a win win for me :)
 
P&G's 'Fairy' Laundry Detergents

Do not contain enzymes of any form. The clue is on the packet... "Non-Bio".

This detergent has always been so, and was seen as an answer to Persil Non-Bio.

I have heard of folk with eczema - with personal experience of one such person - who could tolerate Persil Non-Bio, yet came up in a rash with Fairy Non-Bio. So this might suggest that another component in the detergent is causing the problem, either fragrances, or the surfactants themselves.

Or perhaps P&G's formulations just 'stick' too well to fabrics - even through the rinses?
 
Had Never Heard of Non-Bio

before reading this forum.  My first thought was it meant non-biodegradable, LOL.

 

How did this become an issue overseas and not in the USA?  Seems like the USA has more than its share of worriers about everything else.

 

Sort of surprised no company here has tried to make it an issue for marketing advantage.
 
There are so many non-bio options in the USA. Just think of the BOL brands like Sun, Xtra and so on. Only difference is that UK manufacturers immediately seized the opportunity to charge the same prize from the worriers for a cheaper product through clever marketing.

Enzymes today are generally considered safe for the skin when used under normal conditions.
Then again very high levels of protease can indeed trigger skin reactions.
Thinking of how prevalent twin tubs were in the UK at the advent of bio-detergents, their hit and miss rinsing action in the spinner tub, this could explain problems with enzymes.
 
As one stated

Yes, there are detergents without enzymes here in USA, but they tend to be MOL or BOL products. X-tra liquid is really nothing more than colored water and some scent masquerading as detergent. In all cases however depending upon one's needs or purposes such products may suffice perfectly well.

One of my favourite products for bed linens is "Linen Wash", which cleans remarkably well. But then again one changes such linen frequently and don't eat four course meals in bed.

Bio vs. Non-Bio in regard to UK has been discussed here in group frequently: http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?38006
 
Break the Stain Barrier!

Thanks for the link Laundress.

 

That made me curious about when enzymes were added to Tide, and surprisingly P&G's website has a timeline of the Tide product and it was way back in 1968!  Tide XK as it was called, then later just renamed Tide.

 

Another interesting fact from the timeline...Tide liquid wasn't introduced until 1984.

 

<strong></strong>

http://news.tide.com/timeline/1968/...ecially-formulated-enzymes-thoroughly-break-d
 
There long has been liquid laundry detergents

In US market, Wisk comes to mind, but it never really bothered P&G. Tide still was queen of the laundry room.

Then came Dynamo in the 1970's (one still has the measuring cup that came with samples distributed to every door in our town), and also ERA liquid detergents. Both were pretty good performers. But things got even more interesting by early 1980's when Era upped their game to include enzymes (protein gets out protein).





The energy crisis of 1970's also caused many housewives to cut back on all that hot water washing and move to warm or (gasp) cold water. For both of which liquid detergents (especially with enzymes) gave slightly better performance than most powders.

In any event P&G had to respond, so we got Tide liquid. Who knew fast forward to now that format would come to dominate the Tide brand. You have to look hard to find any Tide powder at local supermarkets. Many only carry the liquid versions.
 
American Water Heaters

IIRC highest most storage tank types (electric or gas) today will go is about 150F or maybe 160F. But there are models which will give 180F water temps: https://water-heaters-now.com/products.asp

Well into the 1950's and perhaps later Rheem, Ruud and other makers of water heaters produced models that produced 180F water entirely, and or were dual temps. That is you could send the hotter water to kitchen and laundry area, but just "hot" water to taps in bathrooms, showers, etc...

http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?44274_84

The idea of course was to have a constant steady supply of near boiling water for all that hot water laundry, and dishwashing with automatic dishwashers (who then largely either lacked internal heaters, or only used them to maintain, not really boost water temps).

Those who get their hot water by a coil (indirect) off boiler (such as for steam heating) can and often do get hot water at temps at or >150. During winter when boilers are on for heat our tap hot water is around 150F to a bit over 160F. The vintage GE Mobile Maid loves it!

At the Biltmore Estate in North Carolina hot water was supplied at first (IIRC)from coils off huge boilers. Water for bathrooms and other taps was tempered; however a set of pipes took high temperature hot water to the kitchens and laundry.

http://https//www.water-heater-repair-guide.com/waterheatertemperature.html
 
It would be so interesting to have a modern, standardized test of all these detergents over the years.  Seeing the effects of adding enzymes, the removal of phosphates, etc.

 

About the only stains that plague me today are salad dressing stains on shirts.  If I catch them right away and make some pre-treatment paste (using Tide w/Bleach powder and water) they will usually (but not always) come out.  Sometimes a second treatment will do the trick.

 

If I miss them and they go through the dryer it's too late.
 
Oil Stains

Nothing beats vintage Fels Naptha soap bars.

Yes, one knows naptha and or Stoddard solvent are nasty things to have about; but they are matchless for getting out oil based stains. Well there are other things, but they are far more nasty (kerosene, benzene, etc...)

Another trick is if you spill/get oil onto something; sprinkle a bit of corn starch, talcum powder, baby powder, or fuller's earth onto it at once/soon as possible. Rub in and allow to sit for a period, then brush off. These substances act as an absorbent and will draw the oil out of fabrics.

If does not work first time place a piece of brown or blotting paper over stained area, then *lighty* run a warm iron over oil marked area; then quickly apply the absorbent as above.
 
A couple of questions have come to mind.

 

Where does "Drive" detergent fit into the enzyme time line?  Weren't enzymes the selling point for that brand?

 

Also, would products like (defunct?) K2R and other spot lifters have contained nothing but talcum or corn starch or other substances mentioned above? 

 

Dave has had poor dexterity since his stroke, and food stains are common on whatever he happens to be wearing, top or bottom.  Laundering his tee shirts always involves the time consuming chore of pre-treatment.   I'm going to start keeping the corn starch within easy reach of the dinner table.  For some items, like chocolate ice cream, I make him wear a bib.  Those stains have proven impossible to launder out no matter what I do to pre-treat.

 

As for original Wisk, I wish someone could get a hold of that formula and start producing it again.  It's my favorite detergent scent by far, and it was quite effective at cleaning.  I'd pay a premium for it.  "Wisk around the collar beats ring around the collar, every time!"
 
Even before I got European front loaders I had good results with Tide with bleach.  I used to wear white shorts alot and it would keep them white.  Once I dropped some tomato grease (you know, the red grease that comes from cooking something with meat and tomatoes together) on my white shorts.  Tide actually took it all out with no trace.  And those shorts were washed in my mother's faithful Maytag washer!
 
K2R

Is still out there, and sold all over the world. Have seen it in France, and IIRC you can find it in Australia as well.

Stuff like similar products (Goddard's spray spot remover) contained perc (dry cleaning fluid) which state of California has branded a possible cancer causing agent. This got some retailers in trouble for selling and soon everyone pulled it from shelves.

The new formula replaced perc with other solvents, but silica is still there and what causes the white mark when spray dries. https://www.wired.com/story/whats-inside-a-magical-and-flammable-grease-lifting-cleaner/

https://www.amazon.com/American-Home-33001-Remover-5-Ounce/dp/B000BQWN08

Original formula Wisk detergent:

Loved the scent but the stuff caused way to much foaming in mother's Whirlpool top loader. Tried it again later after moving on one's own in a front loader in laundromat with equally excessive foaming.

IIRC Wish was heavy on anionic surfactants which are great for cleaning oily dirt, but very high foaming. Not an oil or suds suppressant (like Dash) in sight.

Drive detergent:

Had forgotten all about Drive! Introduced in 1960's IIRC and was an early enzyme containing laundry detergent.



By 1970's even Bold got into the enzyme act. With Gladys Kravitz no less.


Tide XK - Notice that box still gives directions for using Tide to wash dishes, floors, and other things around the house. How many housewives ended up with hands eaten red raw from washing dishes in a detergent that contained protein attacking enzymes.



http://www.k2rbrands.com/where-to-buy.html
 
As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.
Back on topic.....

Which Miele washer did OP examine?

The new W1 series claims nearly 18lb laundry capacity. That is just about what SQ and other larger size front loaders are rated.

https://blog.designerappliances.com/miele-w1-washer-t1-dryer-review/



Standard advice in these matters is for one to take an average load, or whatever large things are wanted to be laundered routinely to a Miele showroom and see what is what.

Unlike the discontinued 4XXX series washers the new W1 are like Miele's of old, that is they are designed to have tub fully loaded for "normal cottons/linens" cycle.
 
Load capacity

Am not surprised to see that Miele went back to allowing the full volume the drum to be used. Someone posted the Normal cycle duration on Houzz: almost two hours. Don't know what the times on the 4xxx washers were but extending them would have probably increased capacity as well.
 
IIRC Those 4XXX Washers Had More Issues Than Capacity

Quite frankly they seemed rather like a half-baked experiment that Miele quickly became ashamed of, hence their rather rapid discontinuance from market.

Internal flooding/leaking which triggered systems that turned machine off until things "dried out". Rear bearings going on washers barely one or two years old. Dispenser drawers that kept popping out, and so it went.

Main knock against the 4XXX washers was many saw at once build quality wasn't up to Miele standards. That and you could actually fit more into the 3XXX series washers even though they were supposedly smaller in capacity. This because unlike the 4xxx the former could be loaded to full drum volume for "normal" wash loads, rather than half to three quarters.
 
Miele OctoPlus

Miele Octoplus units CAN BE purchased in Dallas. Miele Design Center - in the design district.

My Little Giants are great. No bleach required with the sustained temperature.
There has not been a stain of any kind that will not come out.
For heavy grease stains I spray Formula 409 on and throw it in - Tide and Oxy Clean - works wonders.

This forum is the best - you learn so much from all the participants.
 
Why would the Octoplus machines not meet residential standards? OK, I think I'm right in saying they've got no door boot, so perhaps a bit of risk of kids' fingers getting stuck, but that doesn't stop the Askos being sold? All a bit odd IMO.

I also think it's rather a shame they discontinued the W6073... simple, tough machines that I've read a lot of remote Australian farms have, as they can't afford to call out an engineer from the nearest town 400 miles away in the event of a failure...
 
Laundress.....

I've diligently been trying to contact Mrs. Anne Cuneo about Tide XK to no avail. Apparently she is no longer taking calls.

 

** I love those vintage commercials
smiley-laughing.gif
**
 
If near the border

Costco stores in Canada do sell the Miele Octoplus washing machines.

However that being said if you smuggle the thing down south, you're on your own. Miele North America (residential) won't touch the thing with a barge pole IIRC.

In fact if one has things correctly the two are supposed to have nothing to do with each other. When having hard time finding Persil in USA contacted Miele in Canada who said they had tons, but were not allowed to ship to United States. Ditto when looking for W1070 parts.
 

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