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[launderess]

208v-240v electric for washing machines is a tough sell

In USA....

Just ask Miele.

For ages they swore up and down would never ever, ever, ever make a 120v washing machine for North American market. After their first introduction to this side of pond (W7XX and W10XX) machines that could run on either 240v or 120v, by W19XX and so on it was strictly 120v/240v washing machines.

Miele lost no end of sales in USA because contrary to popular belief not all homes had an electric dryer outlet and or otherwise 120v/240v service for laundry. Furthermore not everyone could or even bother with expense of having such service installed.

Miele finally saw sense and introduced 120v washers, well they had to didn't they?

Unlike 1980's and 1990's Miele, Asko and Bosch no longer had front loading washer market to themselves. Maytag, Whirlpool and various Asian brands entered North American market all with washers that were plug and play as it were. No special wiring required.

As for boil washes....

Early as 1930's and 1940's American housewives were being advised boiling wash went out when automatic or even semi-automatic washing machines came in.

Much of all that boiling was due to soap being queen of wash day. Tide and other detergents rinse cleanly in warm or even cold water, so that was that.

Also as have stated many times American love affair with chlorine bleach negates any true need for boil washing. That substance covers up a multitude of wash day sins, but it does disinfect, whiten and remove stains in cold, warm or just moderately hot water. No boiling needed.

IIRC average wash temperature across Europe, even in once boil wash happy Germany, is down to about 104 degrees F. This follows a trend begun back in 1970's or 1980's to "turn down the dial" and save energy.

Besides killing all sorts of things that thankfully are no longer common (lice, scabies and other vermin on garments), main reason for boiling in Europe was to activate oxygen bleach (sodium perborate). Bleach activators removed need to wash at 90 degrees C as same results could be had at 60 degrees C.



Then came advanced enzymes that work perfectly fine at cooler wash temps.



Quite honestly you're not missing much by not having a boil wash. All three of my European washers have 90 degree C settings and cannot recall last time bothered. Things come out just as clean at 40 or 60 degrees C and there is less impact on electric bill.

 

[me]

Cold fill

Up until somewhere around 20 years ago, it was normal for UK washing machines to have a hot fill and an element, a 40°C synthetics cycle wash on all my previous machines would draw in some cold water, then switch to hot fill, and would turn on the element once the water was over the minimum level.

Getting rid of the hot fill was a manufacturing cost cutting measure, which they justified because the lower water fill in modern machines could result in much of the "hot" water drawn in being the cold water that was sat in the pipe due to the typical distance from the hot water cylinder, or gas combi-boiler. Unless the pipe run was quite short, or you ran off the cold water at a nearby tap.

Both dishwashers we've owned were a single connection, but could be plumbed for either hot or cold fill. However, the mechanical timers would result in a shorter wash cycle if using a hot fill which would have compromised the washing performance.

My home still has an airing cupboard upstairs, just outside the bathroom with a hot water cylinder with a heat exchanger coil fed by water heated by an aging gas boiler downstairs in the extension. When we moved here the house was heated by a coal fire with a back boiler which supplied hot water for the radiators and a hot water cylinder. The house I was born in didn't have a gas supply, my parents boarded up most of the fireplaces and got electric night storage heaters (useless things) and a hot water cylinder with electric immersion heaters, as far as I recall it could heat a small section for general hot water use, or the whole tank to fill a bath. The idea was they would heat up overnight on cheap rate electricity, for use during the day.

 

[launderess]

"I know a lot of appliances in Europe have cold fills and the appliance heats the water"

H-axis washers, especially modern versions, use comparatively little water for washing that it simply makes sense for machine to heat water to desired temp vis-à-vis energy use and what not.

Of course persons with access to ready supply of hot water from tap and it does not need to travel great distance, thus less decrease in temp from faucet to machine, may have other ideas about cold fill only.

Homes with solar hot water systems, side arm or coil from boilers used to provide steam or hot water for heating usually have ample supplies of hot water that is pretty much "free". In case of boilers they're firing anyway at least during heating season.

 

[launderess]

My vintage Miele W1070 has both hot and cold water valves.

Far as one can tell if temperature selector is set to "O" or off, machine fills with whatever tap water arrives using left (cold water) triple inlet valve.

If temp is selected then machine will fill using right "hot" water valve in addition to left cold. If washer senses temperature of water is higher than what's selected it stops filling with hot and just uses cold to balance things out.

Downside is if hot water valve is not working (and ours isn't), machine won't fill at all if temperature is selected. Turning dial to "O" or off causes machine to fill from left triple valve.

Don't know when or if things changed but historically Miele washers needed both hot and cold water connections. In past one could get round this by using two hoses and a Y-connector.

One *thinks* modern machines can be programmed for "cold only".

 

[me]

I'm pretty sure I've read that a sodium percarbonate is supposed to work best at 60°C and above, but sill should be moderately effective even as low as 40°C.

Adding TAED converts the hydrogen peroxide released by the PCS to peracetic acid which is a more effective bleach at any temperature, and works extremely well even at 30°C, and I believe I've read it was still at least moderately effective as low as 20C.

My quick search didn't find anything useful on sodium peroxide, but here's an article here about the effectiveness of Hydrogen Peroxide at controlling bacteria in a 40°C wash: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8746306/

I have posted this video demonstrating the effectiveness of PCS + TAED in killing microorganisms in a 30C wash before:-

 

[mark_wpduet]

I don't consider Chlorine bleach a sin at all. Not in the least if it's used sparingly...all my towels are thick and white and soft and years old and show no signs of deterioration at all... and most importantly, they smell so clean (unlike some homes I've visted where you grab a towel after your shower and you grab one of their clean towels and it's whiffy)...

and it keeps the machine so clean... and we're talking only about 2 to 3 tablespoons.. whatever piddly amount the front load dispensers hold. Reverse back to when I used an old fashioned top loader and would use bleach in whites, I saw deterioration in the whites... so I think it comes down to either the amount of bleach used in the top loader vs front load OR the agitation combined with bleach.. I don't know...I honestly think when we used a top load to wash whites we simply used way too much bleach than was needed..

the only thing I hate about buying bleach is it's so easy to make the mistake of getting the thicked easy pour liquid... which I HATE

 

[henene4]

Keep in mind with chlorine bleach: You would want heat and a short time.
Even with wash times in the 30min range most US FLs tend to add bleach the last few minutes.

Add EU wash times of an hour at least usually, and you can't just add chlorine bleach at the very start.
You could in a cool prewash maybe - but if you have effective oxygen bleaches and the required timing for those anyway, going back to chlorine bleach is usually a very niche option.
I only use it on shower curtains anymore really.

On the topic of hot fill:
That really depends. If you are only filling with a few liters for a partial load, then hot fill in most EU dwellings is rather useless.
By the time everything is saturated, if you have anything more than a few meters between hot water source and tap, you have more hot water sitting in the pipe, cooling down (thus "going to waste"), then you got use out of it.

Given that statistically, the average load in the EU never has moved above the 8lbs/4kg mark, that's 10l for a fill - often even less - in a modern machine.
Thus hot fills are less useful overall.
But they can be had for those who really care, from all major EU manufacturers (ELux, BSH, Miele, Ebac on top for the UK).

 

[launderess]

Chlorine bleach works perfectly well at all temperatures, but optimal results come at temps of 120–125 °F (49–52 °C). That corresponds to what most Americans have for tap hot water. Commercial/institutional laundries usually bleach at temps of 140F to 160F.

Action of chlorine bleach in terms of stain removal, whitening, brightening and sanitizing takes place almost at once. After five to 8 minutes any marks not removed by chlorine bleach aren't going to shift and longer contact time only risks textile damage.

As for rest of it there is where things become tricky.

Chlorine bleach will "burn" certain protein and other substances into cloth if introduced too soon. In commercial/industrial laundries loads have a pre-wash/break-suds with perhaps one or more flush cycles before main wash.

One school of thought among professional laundry persons is that adding chlorine bleach to main wash (which again in industrial settings isn't longer than say 8 minutes) will allow any excess bleach to act upon detergent or soap used instead of attacking textiles. Subsequent washes and then rinses will then help to dilute and remove bleach.

Others feel that better results come from using chlorine bleach in "clean" water it's best to add it in first rinse after main wash. This speaks to old industrial laundry saying "wash cycle is for washing, bleach cycle is for bleaching".

Domestic and even many washing machines found in laundromats are a gambit when it comes to chlorine bleach.

Laundromat front loaders often dispense bleach in first minutes of main wash cycle which often isn't longer than 8 to 10 minutes (if that).

Problem with this is that chlorine bleach will kill off enzymes present in many laundry detergents. Thus on that score it's a waste to use TOL products such as Tide with laundromat machines in this manner.

Domestic front loaders tend to dispense bleach either towards end of main wash cycle or first rinse. Again since action of chlorine bleach only requires about five minutes either way is fine. Issue is with domestic washing machines rinses are normally cold fill. Hot water is best for LCB results, so there's that to consider.

Main issue with chlorine bleach is the stuff is just so corrosive. It harms certain metals and other things including textiles with continued repeated exposure.

Chlorine bleach also is extremely difficult to rinse out of textiles. If one can still smell the stuff on laundry then wash has not been properly rinsed free of bleach and or remaining traces neutralized. Once in contact with heat of dryer or irons that chlorine bleach residue can turn a ugly tinge of yellow or brown.

In France (birth place of "eau de Javel" the stuff long has been avoided by professional laundries and many others. In shops you often find chlorine bleach in house cleaning product aisles, not laundry section because French housekeepers don't use the stuff on wash day. Indeed French households quickly learned which laundries or laundresses used chlorine bleach because their linens and other textiles soon became weakened and full of holes.

 

[launderess]

"However, the mechanical timers would result in a shorter wash cycle if using a hot fill which would have compromised the washing performance."

My electronic/computer controlled AEG washers will shorten cycles where temperature desired is reached sooner than it should. This can result in nice bit of wash cycle going missing which could lead to poor results.

Digital timer says "54 minutes", then when machine goes to drain wash water ten or more minutes are subtracted with remaining time decreased.

My vintage Miele washer with mechanical/electronic control has "cycle guarantee". Wash times are set regardless of how quickly or whatever desired temp is reached.

One can advance timer out of heating phase to shorten things, otherwise cycle will run as programmed.

On other side of things once timer on Miele is set to move out of heating phase, that is what it will do, regardless if desired temp is reached or not.

With about 3kw of heating power however don't think that is often something to worry about.

 

[maytag85]

Electricity prices in Europe be like:

“No lowballs, I know what I got”

 

[askolover]

Reply 15
Miele has a special box that plugs into a dryer outlet which then divides the power into two separately fused 240v circuits. Miele now also has a special plug to allow a 240v dryer outlet to be used to power two 120v units. Asko and Bosch allow the washers to be plugged into an outlet on the back of the dryers.

Boil washes...the only time u use them on my Miele is for grease stained clothes, whether it be from one of my automotive repair adventures or a kitchen mishap. Or sometimes I will stick all my white shirts in with some kind of special whitener if they aren't looking as bright as I'd like for them to and let it do it's thing.
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