Whirlpool WTW4816FW3: Bad control board and Lowes warranty issues

[combo52]

Even if a relay only lasts 15 to 25,000 cycles that’s thousands of hours of baking far more than almost any range will ever be used.

And I highly doubt that they’re using components today that have 1/4 of the life of one’s 10 years ago or more.

John L

 

[phillymatt53]

Those relays, particularly if they're the lower-life ones, are nonsense to use in anything.
Relays, if not "beefy" enough, can't stand the arcing of their contacts very long, and the pitting, burning, and sometimes welding closed causes issues.
I've seen this happen in relatively new things like amplifiers. receivers, etc.

On the contrary, my "vintage" appliances - washer, dryer, dishwasher, all having mechanicals timers, and are still performing their duties as designed, decades later.

My take on this new design stuff - PC board controls, microprocessor chips, relays, boils down to corporate greed, idiotic cost-cutting, and irritating the end consumer with repairs and additional costs.
Oh, and those cheap plastic digital controls that are prone to damage from rough handling.

If it costs a bit more to use sturdy timers and real mechanical switches, I'm pretty sure that the customer will appreciate not having to pay more to get their stuff repaired or replaced.

Make the appliance sturdy, long lasting, and reliable for god sakes!
Make the consumer happy about what they bought, and it will give the manufacturer a higher reputation.
Not like the crap brands like Samsung among others have gotten bad reps.

 

[pierreandreply4]

i wonder how whirlpool maytag washers and dryers including amana would look like if they where made by speed queen if speed queen bough whirlpool like whirlpool bough maytag?

 

[johnb300m]

I don’t think you see many mechanical timers even on low end units anymore.
The high volume of timer production has gone way down, making them more expensive. I think there’s only a few dryers out there that might use a timer?
Everything has moved to PCBs because their volumes and part costs have come way down. They’re more flexible than a timer to do fancier stuff the designers want the washers to do.
You can have PCB printers at your desk now for quick turn prototyping and testing. The Ele group I worked with, was doing that 10yrs ago. Pick n place is portable now.
You can’t do that with a mechanical timer.
There’s just less companies supplying them now, so their cost goes up.
And we all know today, the lowest BOM cost is king.
Not only dictated by OEM managers, but the retail space too.

 

[me]

Even premium quality relays can stick sometimes. I saw a documentary about some of our 1950s aircraft, and a former pilot was talking about one, which of course had all electromechanical flight systems, I think it may have been the Handley Page Victor (V-bomber), and was saying that he was always happy when he had a stocky flight engineer on board, who knew just where on the flight deck to jump to fix a fault!

You can also get issues with counterfeit parts getting into the supply chain, although maybe the likes of whirlpool could source them direct. Likely the thickness of the silver alloy plating they put on the contacts has got thinner over the years too.

I had a problem with a stuck reversing relay on my current machine when it was about 14 years old, presumably the contacts shouldn't arc that much because I'd expect that the speed control triac would cut the power before the relays are switched.

 

[hvtech42]

I don’t think you see many mechanical timers even on low end units anymore.
The high volume of timer production has gone way down, making them more expensive. I think there’s only a few dryers out there that might use a timer?
Everything has moved to PCBs because their volumes and part costs have come way down. They’re more flexible than a timer to do fancier stuff the designers want the washers to do.
You can have PCB printers at your desk now for quick turn prototyping and testing. The Ele group I worked with, was doing that 10yrs ago. Pick n place is portable now.
You can’t do that with a mechanical timer.
There’s just less companies supplying them now, so their cost goes up.
And we all know today, the lowest BOM cost is king.
Not only dictated by OEM managers, but the retail space too.

It's true, they're gradually going away. Yeah cheap dryers still have mechanical timers. Cheap ranges still have mechanical thermostats rather than boards. Cheap dishwashers like entry level GE were still using mechanical timers until pretty recently.

I definitely agree the industry is definitely moving away from them, and that process is almost complete. But I'm just having trouble believing it's due to cost rather than other factors. Over time, the change was made lower and lower in the model lineups, and the rate varied by appliance type. But at basically every point in time, electronics have been more likely to be found on higher end units and mechanical timers on lower ones.

You can also get issues with counterfeit parts getting into the supply chain, although maybe the likes of whirlpool could source them direct.

I doubt Whirlpool is sourcing the relays directly, more likely it's whoever they choose to manufacture their boards.

I understand some manufacturers like Miele make their own boards, this can be a good way to retain full control over the quality of the appliance, but most manufacturers outsource this work.

I checked a few relays off of recent and older range control boards I had lying around from a variety of manufacturers, and according to the data sheets they're all rated to last for 100,000 cycles or more - on both the new and old boards. The relay manufacturers included Omron, Potter & Brumfield, Sanyou, and Song Chuan. Of course that doesn't rule out there could be quality issues causing some to last less than rated. But there is no evidence I can see that appliance/PCB manufacturers are intentionally selecting shorter life relays to use.

 

[johnb300m]

IDK how Whirlpool’s value stream works, but I was at a job where we contracted with the same manufacturer in Mexico that made Electrolux’s dishwasher and oven PCBs.
It sounds like Elux did main architectural design and the actual board layout and design was done at a sister branch of the manufacturer in Illinois.
It’s not clear who specified what parts. It could be a mix of the two companies. I’m sure they collaborated back and forth like the factory did with us.
My Ele group did specify the whole BOM and we organized sourcing with the contract manufacturer. They took it from there.
The factory was impressive. They had great quality control and had low rate of failure. The quality manager personally drove us fromTX to the plant in MX every day.
It gave me more confidence in “some” of Elux’s stuff.
Our boards were very well made too.

 

[phillymatt53]

Ok, so manufacturing COST seems to be an ongoing subject here.
Put in cheaper PC boards, electronics, that apparently don't last, and fail.
COSTing the consumer a domestic hassle and making them pay to rectify the problem.
That's a smart bit of marketing and design for a company to benefit from.
Screw the consumer and smile.
Sad state of affairs these days.

 

[me]

Better reliability than mechanical timers/controllers was actually one of the advertised benefits for the microprocessor controlled Hotpoint washing machine my mum bought in 1981. Ironically, the one thing that failed on it after about 5 - 7 years, was the microcontroller itself, which was on a separate board with a row of transistors on many of the inputs and outputs (it had 4 PCBs). The replacement board was for a later model which used a MK3 chip that did >not< need transistors and I believe had better protection from voltage spikes.

I understand some manufacturers like Miele make their own boards, this can be a good way to retain full control over the quality of the appliance, but most manufacturers outsource this work.

Miele apparently used RAST 5 plug in relays on many of their older appliances, so if they failed you could replace them, but the trouble of course with miele, is a replacement relay from them, would quite likely cost almost a much as another manufacturer's new board!

 

[phillymatt53]

Better reliability than mechanical timers/controllers was actually one of the advertised benefits for the microprocessor controlled Hotpoint washing machine my mum bought in 1981. Ironically, the one thing that failed on it after about 5 - 7 years, was the microcontroller itself....

Of course those "advertised benefits" you speak of are just glorified marketing talk used in order to help sell a product.
But the actual "lie" about mechanical timers is just that, misinformation.

When you're dealing with certain products that can perform just fine with standard components, which have a long-time history of reliability, and overcomplicate things with "modern technology", you're bound to see the difference in durability.

But see, the general public isn't aware of those facts.
Dressing up a product with sexy controls, digital displays, colorful lights, doesn't mean it's better, it's generally directed to the humans "superficiality" traits that impress the consumer.
That is something that's been a part of society's teachings from birth.

 

[me]

Of course those "advertised benefits" you speak of are just glorified marketing talk used in order to help sell a product.
But the actual "lie" about mechanical timers is just that, misinformation.

When you're dealing with certain products that can perform just fine with standard components, which have a long-time history of reliability, and overcomplicate things with "modern technology", you're bound to see the difference in durability.

But see, the general public isn't aware of those facts.
Dressing up a product with sexy controls, digital displays, colorful lights, doesn't mean it's better, it's generally directed to the humans "superficiality" traits that impress the consumer.
That is something that's been a part of society's teachings from birth.

It was actually a very nice machine, with intuitive controls with appropriate symbols on the nice sized buttons and labels below that attracted me to it, you didn't need to refer to a manual to understand any of the settings or chose the right wash, the first 8 programme numbers corresponded to the numbers on the care labels on garments at the time, so for example programme 1 was a 95°C white cotton wash, 4 was a 50° synthetic wash, and 6 was for acrylics. The higher numbers were for combinations of rinses and or long and short spins. It even had economy options before energy labels were invented, like half load, lower temp, and reduced rinses, plus a Bio button for enzyme based powders, which gave a longer soak.

I pointed the machine out to my mum because I thought it was a good design, easy to use and the future, never expecting or intending her to buy one. The mechanical timer machines of the time had limited programme options, some used letters as I recall, and one we had before had just a confusing dial and a switch labelled A - B. I regretted not repairing it when the bearings eventually went, although when we opened it up, it did have a very, very thick layer of limescale. Ironically, the feature I miss the most on modern machines is the cable operated door release with the door button on the control panel, as the locking mechanism was mechanical and would open instantaneously, and only open if the water level was low enough and the drum was stationary, regardless if there was power or not. So you could stop the machine and add extra items at the start of the cycle.

 

[mrstickball]

Ironically, a confact I have at a distributor makes their own boards for an appliance. I won't say which one, but its a firm that does OEM work for one of the big manufacturers.

When they decided to make a commonly-failing board, the vendor asked if the distributor I know wanted them to add the relay that only lasts for 5 years (like the major manufacturer decided to use intentionally) or go with the longer-lasting one. So I do think the manufacturers have a good idea that a relay will fail within a certain period of time.

 

[phillymatt53]

Ironically, a confact I have at a distributor makes their own boards for an appliance. I won't say which one, but its a firm that does OEM work for one of the big manufacturers.

When they decided to make a commonly-failing board, the vendor asked if the distributor I know wanted them to add the relay that only lasts for 5 years (like the major manufacturer decided to use intentionally) or go with the longer-lasting one. So I do think the manufacturers have a good idea that a relay will fail within a certain period of time.

While I don't particularly like the new tech era we're living in, and have no interest in that "Artificial Intelligence (AI) stuff working its way into our world, here's a bit of information that it generated in a Google search.....

"Planned failure in products, also known as planned obsolescence, refers to the practice of designing products with a limited lifespan or functionality, forcing consumers to replace them sooner than they would otherwise. This strategy is often employed to boost sales and profits...."

This type of Corporate Greed and Manipulation goes well beyond what was once Pride in manufacturing, an honest way to gain a good reputation, and loyal customer base.

At the repair shop, I've seen the TV sets and other equipment come in with various faults.
The sneaky way the designers installed "timer chips" in the circuitry, only available to us repair techs who can access the secret "Service Menu".
These chips run a Real-time clock set to various "out of warranty" stages to initiate or change operating conditions, leading to a failure of the product.
And the installation of parts that are sub-standard quality, along with parts operating on the edge of their "safe operating zone".

I've been in touch with other dedicated professional service techs - we have our own websites such as this one that are only available to us and paid for by us to keep out non-pro-techs.
I've also had the pleasure of meeting and talking with some local company Regional Product Managers who at times made a subtle "slip of the tongue" comment confirming my thoughts on this.
I won't mention brands, other than saying this is widespread across the board.