Whirlpool's revised models - what have they changed in the normal cycle?

[michaelz08]

Most dishwashers I’ve had over the several years have approx. 800w heaters.
Between 1-2gal fills, that’s enough energy to heat 1deg. F increase per minute. The thirsty KUDD23 takes a little more at maybe 1-1.5min/deg F increase.

Running the hot water first will definitely help that first pre wash do some extra degreasing. But like John says, it’s not fully necessary if the cycle programming or selected cycles are correct.

The latest Technology Connections and the subsequent Conextras videos were fascinating.
I think they’re mostly right!
But what those videos also proved to me is just how HORRIBLE Frigidaire’s cycle programming is.
You can tell they’ve spent like no time perfecting its cleaning ability. They program them to just barely clean within the required regulations.
They simply don’t care and that’s apparent simply by how they use the water temp sensor in the programming.

My first and only experience with a Frigidaire dishwasher is the Frigidaire suite that came with my current condo. They were 3 years old at the time. The majority of the appliances functioned fine, but were full of so many small annoyances that made me hate them. I would estimate they were similar in price (Microwave and range), or a single step below (for the fridge and dishwasher) the equivalent 2015 Whirlpool models in my previous home. I never had any service calls, nor any frustrations or problems. Frigidaire/Electrolux gives 0 s***ts about their US appliances.

- The Frigidaire fridge had a sealed system leak so it was deemed irreparable at it's 4 year mark. So much for simpler being better- it was a simple top freezer model.
- The (midea-made) microwave's UI sucked, the light underneath was an irreplaceable LED of cold color temperature, the turntable screeched randomly as it rotated, and the exhaust fan was too loud on all settings.
- The range had an unacceptable 10 minute delay before it would turn on the convection fan to "aid in gas combustion as it preheats", but would do so even if the oven was already preheated and you just changed modes. It had sharp metal above the storage drawer that I cut my hand on.
- The dishwasher racks were already rusting, and the door switch was not sensitive enough; it might not always recognize if it was shut and so wouldn't start. It wouldn't always seal at the top and so it would vent steam and noise during the entire cycle. I had to pull it out and fiddle with the way the latch was mounted to the tub, which only fixed the latter. To top it all off, the racks- especially the top- felt small and had weird tines that wouldn't fit things well. It cleaned well but made you hate it in the process. And why so many cycle options? 3 wash pressures? I never asked for that! I'd rather have the BOL Amana model than that thing.

I've replaced each one now with a mix of Whirlpool, Miele, and Wolf. Even if WP has it's issues- which they definitely do- I am convinced they actually spend a few minutes thinking about how things actually get used, making them much better to live with.

 

[laundryguysf]

Most powerful motor in a home dishwasher. I am only really highly familiar with US dishwashers not sure what.Miele is using in current dishwashers. They’re older dishwashers had fairly nice motors in them.

Miele is not a serious option for most US consumers, because of the small size, the limited loading capacity and the high cost and lack of availability of reasonable service. Very few consumers will take a chance with it, it’s like buying a Mercedes-Benz with no service.

Yes, many consumers don’t run the hot water first I do recommend running the hot tap before you start the dishwasher, but it really doesn’t make much difference. Some people use time delay in the water is not gonna be hot anyway and because home is vary so much in the US sometimes you have 50 feet of uninsulated, hot water lines in a house and because of the small amount of water used in the long cycle times the water is cold for subsequent fills anyway, so a dishwasher does need to function with cold water coming in. And when you’re talking about only 3 to 6 gallons for an entire cycle and 800 W heater will do an excellent job raising the temperature. My old 1987 whirlpools packed with dishes and with over 2 gallons of water in the sump can easily raise the temperature of the whole thing with the pump circulating in usually about 15 minutes granite the water is coming into the machine in about 130 but my dishwashers area long ways from the water heaters. One is over 50 feet of three-quarter inch copper pipe. The second dishwasher is another 25 feet further and they both work beautifully.

John L

I wonder where are you getting your information about Miele? They actually are no smaller than any American dishwasher unless you're talking about a tall tub. My Miele has a great capacity, better than the Kitchen Aid and Bosch dishwashers I had previously. And in most metropolitan areas service availability isn't an issue. I live in San Francisco and Miele is not uncommon in the Bay Area. As far as price goes, yes, they are expensive, but my dishwasher is over 25 years old, is run almost daily and has never needed service. My mom thought I was crazy paying $1,400.00, for a dishwasher but she doesn't anymore. She has replaced 2 dishwashers in that 25-year period. For me it was money well spent. One other thing that I think is really important. My Miele fills with cold water. It has an internal water heater which ensures that water is at the desired temperature in every phase. I do not understand why American manufacturers don't design American dishwashers this way. I spend a lot of time in Europe and in my opinion American appliance manufacturers are screwing us. I see some of the very same brands that we have in America sold in Europe, but their design is oftentimes completely different, usually better. I don't get it.

 

[henene4]

The cold water filling option is only recently effectively possible at all for the US.


At 15A and 120V (assuming your DW has it's own breaker) you'd have a max capacity of 1800W.
Given that heating with a DW is an extended thing, the 80% rule is in place, leaving you with 1500W continuous draw. (I think that's how that works?)
If you reserve lets say 150W for the wash pump and everything else active during heating, and some wiggle room, that leaves something like 1300W for heating in a US DW.

You'll find that - compared to EU washers where some manufacturers have reduced heating power to as low as 1300W - most EU DW have at least 1800W of heating power.
And even with that, you need heating times in the 15-20min range to get from cold to 60C/140F with our highest efficiency designs and their 0.8gal or less fills.

If you now say that heating power is 1/3rd less, and fills were up to double the volume, heating times of 40+min would be the minimum.
If you now say that you need about 30min of wash time at temp - that's suddenly a 1:15h main wash alone.
Then you'd need another 40+min heating period in the final rinse.
And with a pre rinse, and interim rinse, you're suddenly looking at 2:30h for the shortest cycles - no high temp wash, high soil situation, no sanitize.


Miele's G7000 manuals quite clearly paints the picture with the QuickIntense cycle.
The EU says it takes 59min, on hot fill I can attest it usually takes more like 49min.
In the US, with a hot fill, even with the reduced heating power, it takes about 59min according to the manual.
On cold fill, it's at leats 1:19h. That's 1/3rd more runtime, just for cold fill. Hot fill in the EU however only saves about 17% of time.