Who makes hot fill washers today, apart from Ebac? (UK)

[jaycey]

I'm interested to know because I've seen so many conflicting stories about such machines. People publish lists online that I then go through, only to find that not one is actually a hot fill. Then I read more stories about how some machines have a hot fill fitting but "they don't use it" (this often from 'hot fill haters') - makes in this category have included Hoover and LG. However, I've painstakingly gone through their washers, and can't find any evidence for this (although some brochures say things like 'some models have a hot fill fitting', then say no more about it).

DOES anyone genuinely make hot fill machines these days (apart from Ebac)? And if so, is there a proper list or page somewhere, that gives all the relevant information? (Including machines with hot fill fittings, that do actually use it!)

I've heard the rumours that 'hot fill is coming back'- but is it really? :/

PS. Whatever is out there, it would need to be damn good to get me away from my 30-year old Hoover Logic! In all the years I've had it, I've never found anything better? BUT the old girl is wearing out, and parts are getting harder to find...;(

 

[gizmo]

Hi Jaycey

 

Well I'm in Australia, so machines I can buy may not be available to you, but...

 

We have at least Miele, LG and Fisher & Paykel that make front load washers with hot and cold fill. Not every model, mind you, you have to check each model. Also only some cycles and some temperature settings will use hot fill.

 

I'm not in the market for a new washer, but when I'm in an electrical appliance store I always look at the washing machines, and always check which ones have hot fill.

 

I used to have an old LG, it only used a hot fill on cottons cycle and 60 degrees C or hotter. I used to set it to 60 for fill, then reset it to 40 degrees after fill to avoid the heater coming on. I have off-grid solar power, and a small-ish system in a cloud-prone area so I'm very careful with power use and try to avoid the washer heater coming on, as I have plentiful solar hot water.

My current washer is a Miele with hot/cold fill, it is better, it fills with hot for any wash with higher than 40 degrees C setting. I generally wash on 40 or 50 degrees C and the heater rarely comes on, if it does it is only for a few minutes. I find the hot fill is very valuable and I wouldn't want a washer without it.

 

If you go to a showroom, you can easily look for yourself. If there is only one water inlet fitting, it is cold fill only. If it has two inlet fittings, it will be hot and cold fill. NO machines are hot fill only.*

 

*By this I mean, they connect to both hot and cold taps. The Miele starts with a little cold water to float the ball valve in the drain, a detergent saving function. Then it fills with pure hot water (no cold) till either it is full, or till the temperature sensor finds the water is already up to the set temperature, then it adds cold to keep the temperature from getting too hot. If the clothes absorb lots of water and it needs to top up, it tops up with more hot water. All rinses are cold.

The LG was similar, it would start with a little cold, then change to hot fill only. More initial cold water than the Miele. Once it filled up, if it needed to top up, then top ups would be cold, which I wasn't delighted about. All rinses cold in the LG too.

 

I don't know the exact behaviour of the F&P front load machines. I think they are rebadged Haier?

 

[henene4]

Ones coming to mind are Miele and VZug.

Thing is with modern washers water usage is so low hot fill barely makes sense.

Until hot water makes it to the machine, filling is done already.

Most modern washers that are or were hot aimed at a fill temperature of 40C or lower.
Higher fill temps would easily set stains and thus washers avoided that.

Only modern exception I know is VZug that allows you to either set a normal pre-mix temp or a high pre-mix temp, with the latter trying to use as much hot water as possible without minding the stain setting issue.

Washers also in general dispense detergent with cold water to keep enzymes OK since they do a lot of the cleaning.

And that together leads to the reviews that the washer would not use the hot fill.
Most people barely wash over 40C and many washers wouldn't use the hot fill at temps below 60C for laundry care.

AEG/ELux and brands aswell as BSH have removed their models with hot fill years ago.

Beko of all brands has a design with a hot fill for the EU but that isn't sold in the UK.

Miele does have 2 models in Germany, but only the TOL model in the UK.

The VZug V4000 usually has a configuration option for hot water - but not in the UK.

Asko might still offer that - but their website isn't forthcoming about that.

So, thing is, hot water connections with todays washing situation make little sense unless you produce hot water at incredibly cheap rates and in environmentally friendly ways AND you have a hot water recirculation system in your house (means you don't have to run the tap some time until you actually get warm water).

They don't save much time, much energy or improve results much for how much they can waste and hurt if not used in only those conditions.

Thus, they are basically yesterday's tech for the EU market.

 

[foraloysius]

A friend of mine has a solar boiler, which means in her situation she has a lot of hot water available. That boiler is next to her washing machine. She has a premix installation that makes every washing machine into a hot fill one. No need for a special machine that's very expensive, every washing machine can be connected to it. Here's an example of such a premix contraption.

 

[ozzie908]

Any top loader

As none have heaters they all use hot tap water.

 

[gizmo]

Hi Louis

That is a clever gadget.

does it have a timer so that after initial hot fill, the rinses are cold?

What does it cost?

 

[gizmo]

hot water makes it to the machine, filling is done already

I run the hot tap in the sink to bleed through cold water from the pipes.

The extra wasted water isn't an issue for me - all our water is rainwater, we have huge tanks and live in a high rainfall area.

It's maybe 5 litres wasted per wash?

If I wash laundry straight after having a shower, the water in the pipes is still hot, no need to bleed through.

 

Our house has a rudimentary hot water recirculation system, there is a press-button switch on the wall of the laundry, which activated a very small 12 volt recirculation pump at the furthest point of hot water plumbing. It takes water from the hot line and returns it to the header tank at the hot water service. One press runs the pump for 15 seconds. Unfortunately we had to disconnect it when we added the gas instantaneous booster. I have the parts needed to modify it so that it can still function,(add a small 12 volt solenoid valve, so that when the pump is off, the recirculation line is blocked) but haven't fitted it yet. The part has been waiting on the shelf for several years... 

 

[foraloysius]

It's an intelligent system. Based on time it knows when to use hot water and when not. For that reason there is a pre-wash button (Vorwäsche) so it knows it has to use hot water somewhat later too.

Here's the link to the manufacturer's page. Unfortunately it seems to have sold out at the moment. The price on the manufacturer's page is €259.- but I have seen it on other websites cheaper.

The website is in German, with Google Translate you might get a decent translation.

https://www.alfa-mix-shop.de

Ofcourse this is only one of those gadgets, there are more of those on the market.

 

[jaycey]

@gizmo

Thanks very much for all this. "I find the hot fill is very valuable and I wouldn't want a washer without it" - I'm right with you there! Looking in showrooms is an unhappy experience as a rule - "If it has two inlet fittings, it will be hot and cold fill" can also mean than the manufacturer fitted this but the machine doesn't actually use it (sounds crazy but I've been told this to my face!). I shall be rechecking Miele, LG and Fisher & Paykel and keeping my fingers crossed...

@henene4

I've never even heard of a stain-setting issue with hot water fill? (I've had one all my life and have never experienced this.) "Most people barely wash over 40C" - not me, I wash at 40, 60 and 95 (never below 40) - I've read the science, I want clean, bug-free washing (and a mould-free machine). "Yesterday's tech for the EU market" - I'm running yesterday's tech already and so far have found nothing better (and I'm in the UK). It's sad to see "not in the UK" after so many of the makes you mention. (A plumber told me that cold fill was really all about corner-cutting and trying to get production costs down - but it's always the consumer who suffers?)

@foraloysius

Wow - you've really got me interested in your gadget! And you say there are others? (Would you happen to know what makes?) What an amazing idea! (So simple and yet makes so much sense, like all good ideas!) I wonder how a modern machine reacts to hot water coming in - does it work OK? (I also wonder if using such a gadget might invalidate the machine's guarantee?)

@ozzie908

A toploader is something I hadn't even considered - but now you've got me interested! Have you got one yourself? I have a utility room so I have the space. After having had a quick look around, I can see there are some pretty good ones around. Thanks for the tip. ^

PS. My own situation - a small utility room on the first floor, next to the room with the boiler in it (a combi boiler - water gets hot very quickly, and doesn't have far to 'travel').

 

[foraloysius]

Jaycey

I can only find German products, not sure if they are available in the UK. I guess it's best to ask an installer what products they have. Or perhaps a company that sells solar water heaters. That's how my friend got hers.

Stain setting by using hot water is a well known issue. That's why some washing machines have a stain cycle that can be used in combination with higher temperatures. I think it was Bauknecht who started with that. The heating goes on halt for a while at around 40 degrees Celcius to let the enzymes do it works on stains like grease, fat and blood. After that the temperature goes up. This system was designed to let people use the pre-wash less with stains.

Just curious, what toploaders are still on the market? When I google I can't find any American style toploaders anymore that are available in the UK.

 

[logixx]

My Dreamspace has hot and cold fill. I've only been able to use it in one place I lived - everywhere else there's only cold water available. I liked it a lot. Even the shorter 1h cycle would wash well, as it would target a fill temperature of around 40C, so cleaning would start immediately. It's still fine with a cold fill, as most of my clothes are lightly soiled anyway... but I do miss the hot fill.

I haven't come across a recent LG with dual fill, except for the larger "American" 15 or 17 kg model.

I also wonder, considering the cost of a Miele Passion or a V-Zug, how long it would take to recoup the purchase price through energy savings.

UK YouTube user MrLaundry101 has a Fisher & Paykel and has nothing but praise for it. He also has short written reviews under the Community tab (scroll back 6 months).

Mrlaundry101

For all the laundry videos you like :)

youtube.com

 

[gizmo]

"...manufacturer fitted this but the machine doesn't actually use it"

I don't believe for a minute a manufacturer would do that. I think it is a misunderstanding.
As I said before, the hot fill is generally used only on one or two cycles, and then only on temperatures above a minimum - 40 or 60 degrees.
So a machine that has a hot connection may only use it on two or three cycles out of maybe 15 or more possible cycles on the dial.

If a particular machine only uses hot fill on Cottons cycle, and only when set to 60 degrees C or above, then a person who owns that machine and always selects Quick Wash 30 will never see it operate hot fill. It would if they selected the right options. People these days seem quick to criticise and slow to read the manual. Don't I sound like an old fart?

As stated above, it is long known, since at least the 1970s, that filling with very hot water may set some stains permanently. Blood stains are one of the most notorious for that. Washing machines often had programming where they would heat to 35 or 40 degrees C, wash at that temperature for quite a long time to remove these problem stains, then heat to a higher temperature to remove other stains like greasy marks. The process of heating in stages like that was called a "Profile Wash"

 

[ozzie908]

@jaycey

I have a USA Whirlpool top loader and I find liquids work best in it as its only a 12/15 minute wash cycle, it too is in the same place as the boiler so if I want a super hot wash I turn the boiler up and let it fill it does do an actual hot water intake where as some add cold this one mixes hot and cold when you select warm and it also adds some hot to the cold wash so its not freezing cold as our Up North water can be.

I also have a Whirlpool Dreamspace that uses hot and cold but it senses the temp of the water too hot it adds cold etc but I select whites let it fill then pause it and turn the temp to 60 like you I never wash in cold water just the thought makes me want to throw up all that sludge in the water and no heat to kill bugs??? No thank you and yes I know I could buy even more products to kill stuff but where is the saving doing that ?

 

[jaycey]

My new project - ask all the manufacturers!

Thanks to everybody for all their replies - they certainly got me thinking and looking around.

In the end, I decided to just sit down and email all the manufacturers who supply washing machines to the UK (and some suppliers) to try and get an accurate picture. I made a spreadsheet to record this and to collate the responses (even from companies I knew didn't make hot fill machines - I wanted to give everyone's customer services department a fair crack of the whip). I thought people here might be interested to see what results I got, so here's a JPG of the spreadsheet. There's a lot who haven't replied yet, so this is on-going (hopefully!).

I'd be grateful to know if I missed out any manufacturers - I went through pages and pages of information to get my list, but I still might be out by a few?

Anyway, it's food for thought - and some people just don't care, it seems!

PS. I've tried to load a large sharp picture of my spreadsheet, but whatever size I load this page seems to shrink it down and blur it somewhat (even in 'full size'). I'm sorry about this, it's not me - but hopefully you'll still be able to read it?

 

[logixx]

Some other choices

https://ao.com/product/we170p-elect...-washing-machine-stainless-steel-60686-1.aspx

https://www.samsung.com/uk/washers-and-dryers/washing-machines/wf8000tk-18kg-black-wf18t8000gv-eu/

 

[henene4]

The huge Samsung is on YT and apparently quite decent.
Compared to the LGs it does actually reach selected temps on certain cycles (the normal Cotton reaches 60C IIRC according to the German manual).

It does take long though since it does only have a 2000W heater and usage is as dear as one would expect at 18kg.

There IS a matching dryer to the Samsung washer that is being sold in france but apparently only there.
LGs Tower washer/dryer combo of comparable size hasn't launched yet which would have a similar dryer offering, but as it stands, Samsung is the only manufacturer having both on the EU market.
It's apparently an inverter heat pump design that kind of Frankensteins a EU heat pump base into a US dryer shell with adapted electronics and drive motor.
It also is on YT and apparently has a door lock for some reason?!?
Maybe that's why it's only sold in France...

But it does deliver acceptable performance (a half load of its rated 16kg max load takes just about 3h which is in line with similar smaller dryers though there are certainly fast ones).

Edit:

Nevermind, the dryer is on offer in the UK apparently:

https://www.costco.co.uk/c/Samsung-DV16T8520BVEU-16kg-Semi-Commerical-Heat-Pump-Dryer-A-Rated-in-Black/p/368404

 

[iej]

Miele do, but you might need to order directly from them.

I can’t speak for the UK, but there are few top loaders on the market in Ireland.

https://www.soundstore.ie/whirlpool...wOZNLjippFLVGpXEYuRe2RA4sYHlvD2xoCoL0QAvD_BwE

https://www.soundstore.ie/whirlpool...EaH2Ul7rB4GpwRN4OzZyiHUcotWBN_EhoCVVAQAvD_BwE

https://www.enniselectrical.ie/whirlpool-top-loader-washing-machine/

Caterboss

Ireland largest suppliers of refrigerated and catering equipment. Free Nationwide Delivery.

www.caterboss.ie

 

[chestermikeuk]

Hot Fill machine

Hi Jaycey , the only true Hot & Cold washing machine being actively promoted is for the Ebac here in the UK, and this has been produced primarily for people with Solar Hot Water Heating and Solar Energy where you have the latest thermally insulated Hot Water Storage Tanks linked in with a "Pumped Prime" Hot Water system where the hot is pumped around a short hot water loop constantly so you always get Hot Water straight away.

From your Hoover logic any larger capacity washing machine is going to give you more economical energy costs savings than what you have now . Todays machines use of water , electricity to heat and detergent required will wash more for less than your logic, hot water provision not withstanding.

We did a test on the use of water in a new 9kg washer dryer and on a cottons cycle the amount of water for washing 9kg, 2 deep rinses and the water didnt even fill a single tub Hoover washing machine being able to wash only 3 kg or 6lbs of clothing.

 

[chestermikeuk]

Ebac Washing Machine

Here are a few pics of Alistairs Ebac Washing Machine... including a final rinse & spin where you can see the motor and inner components !!