Whole House Back Up Generators

[verizonbear]

My new neighborhood is all "above ground" power lines with lots of trees, I know that the local utility here BGE is notorious for taking a long time to bring downed power lines back up. I am thinking this may be a good capital investment and add resale value to my house. Costco has one for 2700.00 plus 700.00 for a transfer switch. Anyone have any experiences with these ?

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Productgroup.aspx?Prodid=11671393&search=generator&Mo=15&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-US&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&Sp=S&N=5000043&whse=BC&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=Text_Search&Dr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ne=4000000&D=gen

 

[coldspot]

I do not have one but can help a little. After the ice storm here a few years ago. Many own them now.

They work and work great. But there is a problem in both but can be over came with a dual fuel system. It will use gas vie lp or natural. But for more back up if they got them there get one that runs on both.

Why lets say power out then gas line gets cut or service goes down. You can switch to lp for more back up.

Also they start in under 60 secs once power goes down. You should test it like once a month just flip main service breaker.

Here there are many types after the ice storm. But I find the ones they place on stands nice. In case you have a flood it is not in the water.

If I owned my place I would have had one as soon as the storm was over I went over 8 weeks with no water power or anything not even heat. Think gosh for the army and there meals ready to eat they suck but are nice when all you got is cold soup. lol

 

[58limited]

I haven't used a Honeywell. I had a Generac 15Kw for my house. It was on a stone pad 12" higher than ground level. It worked great for storms and power failures until Hurricane Ike over topped the seawall behind my house and the water in the yard rose high enough to flood and short out the generator. I haven't bought another yet, but plan to do so - it will be 4 feet off the ground next time.

 

[wayupnorth]

A couple of my neighbors have them and put them in after the bad ice storm we had here in 1998. Our neighborhood alone lost power for 13 days. Honestly, we dont loose power that often to warrent having them. I have a $800 Sears 6000 watt generator I can plug in outside and in no time it powers everything I need, and only if I have to. Bad part is that it chews almost a gallon of gasoline an hour but my furnace, refrigerator, water and septic pumps and even computer work fine. Power lines are all on poles here in rural Maine, so even a branch falling can cause an outage. The 2 Maine electric companies do a very good job of restoring power just as quickly as they can. I was the only one in this neighborhood that had a gas stove so it was doing alot of cooking during that storm for all the neighbors whose refrigerators were out.

 

[countryguy]

I have a 17kw Generac that I purchased and had installed through Home Depot. It runs on propane as natural gas is not available where I live. It powers everything (water pump, sewage pump, water heater, heating system, A/C, fridge, stove, freezer and almost all other electric outlets and lights) in the house except for the washer, dryer, dishwasher and microwave. I have sleep apnea and use a bipap machine so when the electricity goes out, the generator is a life saver. It kicks in automatically 30 seconds after the electricity goes out. It also runs weekly for 15 minutes as a test. It was expensive to install but to me, well worth it.

Gary

 

[arbilab]

I think Honeywell is one of the biggest hosebag corporations. They used to call themselves Allied-Signal until they bought Honeywell then changed their name because their reputation was so bad. They bought and destroyed Ampex and nearly bankrupted Mack Truck. I know this because I inadvertently owned their stock in the 80s.

How any of that applies to that particular product I can't say. But if I were in the market I wouldn't buy from Honeywell. If a reputable brand cost twice as much and I had less to spend, I would downscale capacity to meet budget and manage the load manually. Like turn off fridge while microwaving, etc.

 

[iheartmaytag]

Like turn off fridge while microwaving, etc.

Just like on Green Acres. It was hard for poor Lisa to understand that you can't plug in more than 7.

As for the generator. I would love to have one, In the ice storm of '05, there were many out of power for up to two weeks. I was blessed that I had a small baby at home and didn't lose power, but the neighbors across the street did.

 

[circlew]

I'm considering one for the house I've been renovating, but it will have to wait awhile, as I've spent so much already.

I don't have gas service, and I'm afraid of propane, so it will have to run on diesel. If and when I do make the purchase, it will most likely be a Kohler. Cummins and Cat are also good brands. Those three brands are the ones most commonly installed at nursing homes, hospitals, fire stations, phone company switching centers, etc. where reliability is of extreme importance.

I would deal with an authorized distributor of whatever brand I choose; they will put you in touch with a certified installer, and will have a service department - these do require service just as a vehicle does. They will also do a load calculation to determine the correct size for your place.

I have two relatives in Mississippi who have generators. One I think is a 100 KW Kohler for their poultry farm (kept all the chickens alive after Katrina), the other a 60 KW Kohler for a large all-electric home. Both are diesel as they are in rural areas. They have been pleased with them.

One thing you want to make sure of is that is has excellent voltage and frequency regulation. If not, you may ruin sensitive electronics. Also the transfer switch should transfer the load in no more than 10 - 15 seconds after a power outage, and excercise and test should automatically occur at least once every two weeks.

For the total price you will have to add in the installation. Electric codes require that these be installed by a licensed electrician.

Rex (Tolivac) knows quite a bit about these. Perhaps he will comment.

 

[whirlykenmore78]

Standby Gensets

Are avaialable from many sources. The most common units for home use are a natural gas or propane powered unit. The way these work is when a power outage or brownout is detected the generator starts and the switchgear transfers the electrical load from commercial power to the generator. Upon the restoration of commercial power service the switchgear will shut the generator off and transfer the load back to the power grid. This is all done automatically. The most common type of genset for home use draws fuel from the house natural gas or LP service. Diesel units are common mostly for commercial use. The chief advantagg of a NG/LP unit is not having to store or have Diesel fuel delivered. While a Diesel can run independant of utility service provided fuel is stored near or under the unit.
Nick WK78

 

[hydralique]

Diesel

I once had a client who wanted a large backup generator for his home and initially intended to use diesel because natural gas service can shut down during an earthquake - new gas meters will shut it off automatically even if the utility service continues to work. I researched the diesel option and found it was a huge PITA for several reasons. The first is getting approval to store diesel onsite, it's not normally done on residential lots and so you end out having to comply with many environmental rules intended for service stations, like very expensive double wall tanks if they are underground, or containment dikes to capture a spill if the tank is above ground. Underground tanks also must be professionally inspected regularly and replaced once their pre-determined life is up.

 

The diesel itself is also a problem in that it will deteriorate over time and is even prone to certain mold-like biological actions in some circumstances. These don't prevent the fuel from burning but can damage or destroy diesel injection pumps; it is a larger problem with biodiesel. The best solution here would be to regularly siphon some diesel from the tank for use in a diesel car or truck and replenish the tank, but then you have to use highway diesel and not the red-dyed (and much cheaper) off-road diesel.

 

In the end the client went back to the natural gas unit and figured if the meter shut off in a quake he'd use a wrench to turn it back on manually.

[this post was last edited: 3/19/2012-09:04]

 

[circlew]

I can see how diesel could be a problem in a suburban setting. Both relatives installations are on large properties in the country. At the farm, they have tractors and other farm equipment that run on diesel (they raise crops in addition to chickens). However, at both places the power goes out so frequently - especially in Spring and Summer - that the fuel would not stay in the tanks long enough to get "stale".

The ones I investigated have double walled sub-base fuel tanks, that hold enough to run the machine for a several days.

Where natural gas is available, it certainly makes more sense to use that. Large LP gas storage could also present a problem.

 

[hydralique]

The big advantage of LP is that in the event of a leak it doesn't pollute the ground. Many people don't know it, but leaks from service stations have caused vast amounts of ground contamination all around the world. Most of the time it doesn't get discovered or cause big problems, but if it does the remediation to gradually leach petrochemicals out of the ground is enormously expensive and can take decades to complete. Not a good thing if you are the target of a lawsuit from an neighbor who has discovered bad things in his wellwater and assumes (correctly or not) that your tanks are the source of the pollution.

 

LP also has the advantage that it doesn't gel up and become unusable during very cold weather. I drive a diesel car and have no problems with the weather here in SoCal, but once temperatures get much below freezing diesel needs additives for cold weather. Oil companies normally add these on a seasonal basis. People can get caught out if they have a vehicle full of summer diesel that hasn't been used for awhile and then needs to be started when it's very cold. If the fuel is gelled then it can usually be started by changing the fuel filter and filling the new one up with winter diesel and some special additives like Power Service, but if the fuel in the tank is also gelled up the engine will just die once it exhausts the fuel in the filter. About the only way to get the vehicle running under these conditions is to somehow warm the fuel tank and then mix additives into it.

 

[tolivac]

so far on gensets-folks here have them well covered for residentual use-I use these more for commercial institutional useage-radio stations,govt buildings.and these are three phase.Of course household sets will be single phase 240-120 V.I don't have a genset on my home--too expensive and the power is pretty reliable here-only a couple homes in my immediate area have these generators.Automatic exercisors are available for generators in unattended locations-radio station transmitter sites.the exercisor can be programmed to start the generator-have it run under the site equipment load for an hour,then transfer back to the powerline and shut down.you can program it for the day and time to exercise the unit.Uusually for very early Mon mornings when fewist listeners are listening to the station.and these gen controllers can call a phone or cell phone# if something goes wrong!

 

[tomturbomatic]

What about the noise? With close by neighbors trying to sleep with open windows in the summer in the wake of a big storm, what do you do about the noise? Even if you share power with them via extension cords, they are not going to have air conditioning. These are not quiet things. On top of that, these need a big pipe to supply the natural gas so there generally has to be a trench dug from the meter to the generator location--there goes some landscaping.

 

[58limited]

I was able to put mine behind my garage and the noise wasn't too bad for me or my neighbor. There are large bushes along the property line to break up the noise plus the generator box had sound insulation. You could also build a fence around it to help block noise - just leave enough room for air flow to cool the generator if it is an air-cooled model.

 

I had to lay 35' of one inch pipe to run the gas to it, but it wasn't too hard. I installed mine myself  including wiring the transfer switch to the main panel. I had an electrician come inspect and adjust the generator after installation.

 

[circlew]

Hydralique, what you said about diesel storage on a residential lot got me to thinking about fuel oil for heating. Several people in my neighborhood heat with oil, and therefore have storage tanks for the fuel. Some have tanks in their garage or basement, some underground. Is oil heat not common out west? Diesel is essentially very much the same as fuel oil, so I don't see what the difference would be.

Also, on a farm, it is very common to store fuel. All my relatives and friends who farm have tanks of gasoline and diesel to fuel up the tractors, combines, etc.

 

[hydralique]

Diesel can be used in even extremely low temperatures - think of the trucks on the Ice Road Truckers TV show where supplies to some places in northen Alaska can only be delivered in the winter when the rivers ice over and can be driven on - but it must have special additives for use in low temperatures. I assumed that fuel oil for heating has these added as a matter of course as it must be transported in the winter. Fuel in tanks located underground or in a building is much less likely to gel up than in an exposed above ground tank. Thus with a heater both the fuel and fuel lines should be protected, and then you have the low-temp additives.

 

With a generator the unit itself is usually mounted outside, so even if the tank is underground the fuel lines, filters and injection system are protected by no more than a thin sheetmetal cover. Fuel in these items is much more susceptible to gelling than in a tank as the fuel lines are very small in diameter. I assume companies that maintain diesel generators are careful to make sure that regardless of when fuel is changed out it does have low-temp additives, but this might not be so easy if it is a residential set and not professionally maintained. If the tanks are used for other purposes like fueling farm equipment then it shouldn't be a problem as the fuel must be frequently replenished and fuel purchased in winter should have the additives already added.  I only  see a problem if someone fills the generator tank in the summer and forgets about it until the power fails during an ice storm in November.

 

Link is to a Power Service product to re-liquify gelled diesel, there are may other brands out there but this is one of the more commonly available ones.

 

 

 

http://www.powerservice.com/d911/

 

[circlew]

Hydralique, thanks for the link. Will keep that in mind if and when I do buy a gen set.

I think professional maintenance is important whether in a commercial or residential installation. My relatives that have them say they have the distributors service dept. come in Spring and Fall to do whatever work is necessary to insure they function properly.

 

[wayupnorth]

Diesel is pretty much the same as home heating oil with on road diesel having a different color and a tax where off road is a different color and not taxable. In this area, people with outside fuel tanks have to use kerosene in the winter as regular #2 heating oil will definitely gel in sub zero temps, like a mobile home. But those with inside (usually a basement) tanks can get by on the slightly less expensive #2. Most whole house generator applications in Maine use either propane or natural gas. Only large scale industrial applications use the diesel here. When I worked at the phone company, our main switching station had 2 huge CAT diesel DC generators. But they had to keep all the phone lines up and running for half of the state if power went out so that explains their size.