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Would you replace an eleven year old fridge??
- Thread starter mtn1584
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I've got a mid 80's Frigidaire top mount in the basement. It has the "klunk" from the compressor when it shuts down. It's been that way since I picked it up about 17 years ago. Never misses a beat, keeps great temperatures, no other problems in 17 years.
1999 GE top mount here
It has been clunking at shutoff for at least 5 years. I doubt it will die tomorrow but am getting a little tired of the noise (and startled guests jumping).
I think I'd replace it, but how do could you determine a model that wouldn't develop the same noise?
It has been clunking at shutoff for at least 5 years. I doubt it will die tomorrow but am getting a little tired of the noise (and startled guests jumping).
I think I'd replace it, but how do could you determine a model that wouldn't develop the same noise?
xraytech
Well-known member
we have a 1993 Kenmore 18 top freezer model that's chugging along just fine, have an Amana bottom freezer of same time period in the garage that clunks and is very loud but performs great.
Now our freezer is a mid-late 1970s 22 cu ft coldspot that runs quietly.
I personally wouldn't worry about the age as a new one may end up more trouble
Now our freezer is a mid-late 1970s 22 cu ft coldspot that runs quietly.
I personally wouldn't worry about the age as a new one may end up more trouble
Compressor Clunk
Our Fridge does this on occasion, usually for defrost cycle, but sometimes other time. Ours makes more of a pop sound when the top hits the cage. It used to do this at random times too at one point - it would clunk a few times in a row over a minute, but doesn't anymore.
The freezer OTOH, rattles when it stops. Thermostat clicks, then you here to "clicky" rattle.
Our Fridge does this on occasion, usually for defrost cycle, but sometimes other time. Ours makes more of a pop sound when the top hits the cage. It used to do this at random times too at one point - it would clunk a few times in a row over a minute, but doesn't anymore.
The freezer OTOH, rattles when it stops. Thermostat clicks, then you here to "clicky" rattle.
My 18 year old Whirlpool
Built by Frigidare clunks and bangs but still works perfect. Except it is the worst designed fridge in the world to fit things in. Did the energy calculation and it would be about 30 years to save enough money replacing it with a comparable 18 cu. ft. But you can put something in the freezer and its solid in no time.
Built by Frigidare clunks and bangs but still works perfect. Except it is the worst designed fridge in the world to fit things in. Did the energy calculation and it would be about 30 years to save enough money replacing it with a comparable 18 cu. ft. But you can put something in the freezer and its solid in no time.
dustin92
Well-known member
We have never had any major problems with a refrigerator- 20 year old and 13 year old GE's at our old house, a 80's Gibson downstairs and a 1989 Whirlpool upstairs at this house. The Whirlpool has Clunked loudly when shutting off for at least 20 years, but keeps everything perfectly cold.
You people must have cheap electricity.
Not so here.
Not so here.
Electric rates
Fairly cheap by today's standards, at about 10 cents per kWh, when everything is included, and no pricing tiers or time-of-day differentials (yet), so using more doesn't raise the rate. Gas seems to be higher in the Southeast than in the West, however -- not too many people around here have a gas dryer.
According to a book I have, the TVA electric rate in 1970 was 1 1/4 cents per kWh.
Fairly cheap by today's standards, at about 10 cents per kWh, when everything is included, and no pricing tiers or time-of-day differentials (yet), so using more doesn't raise the rate. Gas seems to be higher in the Southeast than in the West, however -- not too many people around here have a gas dryer.
According to a book I have, the TVA electric rate in 1970 was 1 1/4 cents per kWh.
arbilab
Well-known member
How much kWh do you have to save to replace an appliance every 6 years instead of every 25 years? That's roughly the difference between old "inefficient" refrigeration and what's sold today.
Using the example I'm most familiar with, the condenser (outside) unit of a central air made in 1980 could be expected to last 20-30yrs. The same appliance made in 2005 is designed to fail in 5-7 yrs. Yes a rotary is "more efficient" than a swash when evaluated only in terms of operating kWh. But how many kWh does it take to landfill and remanufacture it 4 times as often? Not counting retail markup and installation labor which is what YOU pay.
Surely nobody here thinks government-mandated "efficiency" favors the person who actually PAYS for things. Yeah right, save $1000 off your electric bill by trashing your $4000 system 4 times as often. You don't even have to DO the math to see the fallacy.
Using the example I'm most familiar with, the condenser (outside) unit of a central air made in 1980 could be expected to last 20-30yrs. The same appliance made in 2005 is designed to fail in 5-7 yrs. Yes a rotary is "more efficient" than a swash when evaluated only in terms of operating kWh. But how many kWh does it take to landfill and remanufacture it 4 times as often? Not counting retail markup and installation labor which is what YOU pay.
Surely nobody here thinks government-mandated "efficiency" favors the person who actually PAYS for things. Yeah right, save $1000 off your electric bill by trashing your $4000 system 4 times as often. You don't even have to DO the math to see the fallacy.
"The same appliance made in 2005 is designed to fail in 5-7 yrs."
This is quite a statement. To say that something is actually engineered to fail in 5-7 years intentionally? You can back this up with proof right?
Yes surely modern appliances are built lighter then vintage ones were and there is far more cost cutting done to keep consumer pricing low. I think its a bit paranoid to believe that the intention of the engineers was to have the design fail frequently though.
Today's units _may_ have a reduced lifespan compared to vintage units but stating a 4 to 1 replacement is absurd. The frequent replacement is more likely more due to peoples decisions to fix/not fix and the state of modern service companies today. A 20+ year central AC is pretty rare no matter when it was made, most get replaced after 10 years, often for no reason. Twenty years from now there may well be just as many of today's units running as the the vintage ones are today, all depends on if people keep repairing them. For the record my AC is 22 years old at this point, I'm a "fixer". My girlfriends father just junked an 8 year old high end furnace because the draft inducer motor failed, he is not a fixer...
Replacing a working unit to get increased energy efficiency is quite likely a loser in the cradle to grave analysis. Only if the device is really inefficient would it make sense (like incandescent lights with LED, a 10 to 1 saving). When replacement is needed though, in general it does pay to pick the most efficient thing one can buy though.
This is quite a statement. To say that something is actually engineered to fail in 5-7 years intentionally? You can back this up with proof right?
Yes surely modern appliances are built lighter then vintage ones were and there is far more cost cutting done to keep consumer pricing low. I think its a bit paranoid to believe that the intention of the engineers was to have the design fail frequently though.
Today's units _may_ have a reduced lifespan compared to vintage units but stating a 4 to 1 replacement is absurd. The frequent replacement is more likely more due to peoples decisions to fix/not fix and the state of modern service companies today. A 20+ year central AC is pretty rare no matter when it was made, most get replaced after 10 years, often for no reason. Twenty years from now there may well be just as many of today's units running as the the vintage ones are today, all depends on if people keep repairing them. For the record my AC is 22 years old at this point, I'm a "fixer". My girlfriends father just junked an 8 year old high end furnace because the draft inducer motor failed, he is not a fixer...
Replacing a working unit to get increased energy efficiency is quite likely a loser in the cradle to grave analysis. Only if the device is really inefficient would it make sense (like incandescent lights with LED, a 10 to 1 saving). When replacement is needed though, in general it does pay to pick the most efficient thing one can buy though.
The Frigidaire side x side fridge at dad's lasted 15-years and was really still working OK (a 1984 & the best appliance that WCI-owned Frigidaire ever made!) when it got replaced by the Whirlpool side x side w/ the ice & water in 1999, which is still in place & doing its job...
So, I agree, that Energy Star is still locked into more con-current standards, than conforming to whatever standards will be mandated in any future measures, as well as over-looking what constant replacement & obsolescence (which the industry is doing well at making "new stuff" having to be replaced that quickly) to make anything we have to strictly go by...!
As for the fridge in my house, it's still too new, soon & working awesome to really tell what the future will bring (though I wish the condenser below it would be easier to make a little more dust-free, vs. the in-laws, which is the same make only newer and has a condenser that you really "don't" have to clean--that is the kick-plate is much smaller & giving me the impression that there is nothing underneath, but the means of making it 1-more-cu. ft. than ours is)...
-- Dave
So, I agree, that Energy Star is still locked into more con-current standards, than conforming to whatever standards will be mandated in any future measures, as well as over-looking what constant replacement & obsolescence (which the industry is doing well at making "new stuff" having to be replaced that quickly) to make anything we have to strictly go by...!
As for the fridge in my house, it's still too new, soon & working awesome to really tell what the future will bring (though I wish the condenser below it would be easier to make a little more dust-free, vs. the in-laws, which is the same make only newer and has a condenser that you really "don't" have to clean--that is the kick-plate is much smaller & giving me the impression that there is nothing underneath, but the means of making it 1-more-cu. ft. than ours is)...
-- Dave
Well the KA sxs I got in 2000 is still running just fine. It shows no sign of deterioration.
The only problem I had with it was when I stacked things up high on the top shelf in the fresh food compartment and blocked the flow of cold air from the top of the freezer into the top of the fresh food compartment. This tends to ice up the water line leading to the ice maker, leading to an icemaker apparent failure. I had it serviced under warranty the first time this happened, and the repair procedure just happened to melt the ice block sufficiently that it worked until I unknowningly blocked the air vent again. After that I was able to thaw it out (hair dryer helped) and resolved never to block those vents again. So far, so good, problem has gone away.
As for electric rates here in California... at the mercy of the state, there. If I were to get rid of the koi pond pump, the chest freezer, and the second fridge, probably could lower the monthly bill quite a bit. But I'm sort of attached to the fish and the chest freezer certainly does come in handy. The second fridge is not strictly needed but since it sits in a second kitchen in an enclosed patio it's kind of expected. Both fridges are energy star circa 2000 and it would not be very economic to replace them for maybe 100 kWH less total consumption per year.
Parasitic losses are always an issue... esp with things like radios that lose their station settings when unplugged but consume five or more watts when plugged in. And of course a computer sucks it up too.
The only problem I had with it was when I stacked things up high on the top shelf in the fresh food compartment and blocked the flow of cold air from the top of the freezer into the top of the fresh food compartment. This tends to ice up the water line leading to the ice maker, leading to an icemaker apparent failure. I had it serviced under warranty the first time this happened, and the repair procedure just happened to melt the ice block sufficiently that it worked until I unknowningly blocked the air vent again. After that I was able to thaw it out (hair dryer helped) and resolved never to block those vents again. So far, so good, problem has gone away.
As for electric rates here in California... at the mercy of the state, there. If I were to get rid of the koi pond pump, the chest freezer, and the second fridge, probably could lower the monthly bill quite a bit. But I'm sort of attached to the fish and the chest freezer certainly does come in handy. The second fridge is not strictly needed but since it sits in a second kitchen in an enclosed patio it's kind of expected. Both fridges are energy star circa 2000 and it would not be very economic to replace them for maybe 100 kWH less total consumption per year.
Parasitic losses are always an issue... esp with things like radios that lose their station settings when unplugged but consume five or more watts when plugged in. And of course a computer sucks it up too.
whirlcool
Well-known member
Yes surely modern appliances are built lighter then vintage ones were and there is far more cost cutting done to keep consumer pricing low.
No, they are built cheaper to increase the manufacturers profits is the first priority. If it lowers the cost to the final consumer, that's just a side benefit.
No, they are built cheaper to increase the manufacturers profits is the first priority. If it lowers the cost to the final consumer, that's just a side benefit.
I've noticed that, as with many other products, the latest and greatest fads in fridges tend to result in the highest prices. When bottom freezer french door fridges came out, they carried quite a price premium. Now that seems to have settled and I'm seeing ads for some down well under $2000. The latest fad seems to be 30 cu ft models, which carry the new price premium. Water/ice in door dispensers also cost more, but in my case that's a requirement.
As for Whirlpool.... they have their ups and downs. I think their mechanicals are probably the best out there, or at least above average. I feel a little burned about the second fridge from KA out on the patio. It's a curved door 25 cu ft top freezer in stainless. Apparently KA goofed on the insulation and it shrunk and caved in those nice curved doors as well as the top and sides of the unit, over time. I called KA when it was under warranty, send them photos, but they didn't seem to think it was a problem. I should have demanded a site visit but didn't... so now it looks like someone beat on the poor thing. The SXS in the main kitchen fortunately doesn't have the caved in door look, although I can see a little sucking in of the sides. But these are mostly not visible. I think the insulation issue was an isolated occurance that KA/Whirlpool later corrected, I just happened to be one of the unlucky first buyers who got a top freezer with the issue. If I could, I'd sell the thing for a big loss and replace it with a bottom freezer single door - preferably something with the ability to handle the low temps on the patio better than a top freezer unit. But given other expenses that's probably not going to happen for a while.
Other than that, fairly happy with the things.
I do have a late 40's GE single door in storage, that could be repainted and gasketed and would probably be just fine as a patio fridge. Minimal freezer space in it but then there's a chest freezer out there right next to it anyway. And as far as I can tell, the old GE uses less than 300 KWH/yr.
As for Whirlpool.... they have their ups and downs. I think their mechanicals are probably the best out there, or at least above average. I feel a little burned about the second fridge from KA out on the patio. It's a curved door 25 cu ft top freezer in stainless. Apparently KA goofed on the insulation and it shrunk and caved in those nice curved doors as well as the top and sides of the unit, over time. I called KA when it was under warranty, send them photos, but they didn't seem to think it was a problem. I should have demanded a site visit but didn't... so now it looks like someone beat on the poor thing. The SXS in the main kitchen fortunately doesn't have the caved in door look, although I can see a little sucking in of the sides. But these are mostly not visible. I think the insulation issue was an isolated occurance that KA/Whirlpool later corrected, I just happened to be one of the unlucky first buyers who got a top freezer with the issue. If I could, I'd sell the thing for a big loss and replace it with a bottom freezer single door - preferably something with the ability to handle the low temps on the patio better than a top freezer unit. But given other expenses that's probably not going to happen for a while.
Other than that, fairly happy with the things.
I do have a late 40's GE single door in storage, that could be repainted and gasketed and would probably be just fine as a patio fridge. Minimal freezer space in it but then there's a chest freezer out there right next to it anyway. And as far as I can tell, the old GE uses less than 300 KWH/yr.
mrb627
Well-known member
Designed to Fail?
Perhaps not. But most all are designed to not be worth repairing in the end.
1) Take a day off work.
2) Wait for tech to show up (good chance he wont)
3) Diagnose problem.
4) Order parts.
5) Wait for parts.
6) Wait for tech to arrive to replace parts. (another missed day of work)
7) Write a check for at least 50% of the value of the machine brand new.
8) Say an extra prayer at night that it runs another couple years.
[ MOST CONSUMERS DON'T WANNA BE BOTHERED WITH ALL THIS ]
Malcolm
Perhaps not. But most all are designed to not be worth repairing in the end.
1) Take a day off work.
2) Wait for tech to show up (good chance he wont)
3) Diagnose problem.
4) Order parts.
5) Wait for parts.
6) Wait for tech to arrive to replace parts. (another missed day of work)
7) Write a check for at least 50% of the value of the machine brand new.
8) Say an extra prayer at night that it runs another couple years.
[ MOST CONSUMERS DON'T WANNA BE BOTHERED WITH ALL THIS ]
Malcolm
@ Malcom
All eight of your bullet points applies to any vintage of appliance, old or new. It appears that perhaps the longevity of modern machines is being driven by the consumers choices as much as the manufacturers (and to some degree the service companies). This was part of my point.
@ Allen
Of course cost cutting is done to maximize profits for the manufacturers too. But if price competitiveness to the consumer isn't maintained, sales and therefore profits fall FAST. This is especially true today in the global market place. Think Samsung and LG for instance and how they have altered the game. Many of the moves that the US makers had to do were done merely to stave off the competition of the far East manufacturers.
All eight of your bullet points applies to any vintage of appliance, old or new. It appears that perhaps the longevity of modern machines is being driven by the consumers choices as much as the manufacturers (and to some degree the service companies). This was part of my point.
@ Allen
Of course cost cutting is done to maximize profits for the manufacturers too. But if price competitiveness to the consumer isn't maintained, sales and therefore profits fall FAST. This is especially true today in the global market place. Think Samsung and LG for instance and how they have altered the game. Many of the moves that the US makers had to do were done merely to stave off the competition of the far East manufacturers.
I think the bulk of retailers profits come from service contracts, and not on the appliance. I think the bulk of the appliance industry profits from service calls. It costs anywhere from 75 to 100 dollars just to have someone show up at your house!!! It is easier to roll the dice on a new product and hope for trouble free service for 5-7 years!! Either way it is gonna cost you money!! A new fridge, or a service call that is half the cost of a new fridge like Malcolm said. No one can buy an appliance, and expect it to last 10-15-20 years any more, because the cost to service them out of warranty has become cost prohibitive!!
Mike
Mike
danemodsandy
Well-known member
Two Cents More:
We will know a politician is serious about energy savings and the environment the day we hear one propose durability requirements for white goods.
We will know a politician is serious about energy savings and the environment the day we hear one propose durability requirements for white goods.
