sunspot42
Member
I'm sorry to see the Niagara is out of production. I have one and love it. I can't for the life of me understand why horizontal axis washers haven't made it to the US. I've thought about trying to import one from Japan but $$$.
You asked for a Horizontal-Axis Top Load washer?
- Thread starter thomasortega
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Honestly, I think I definitely know one thing I’m gonna try
To pick up used, a laundry alternative Niagara
To pick up used, a laundry alternative Niagara
"I can't for the life of me understand why horizontal axis washers haven't made it to the US."
Top loading H-axis washing machines have long been popular in Europe. This especially in France and elsewhere that often are space challenged for a washing machine. But we're talking about machines with capacity of 3 to nearly or six kilograms. That is about upper limit one can go without having issues regarding depth of tub for a start.
Design and build of h-axis washing machines in general is more complicated than top loaders with central beaters or impellers. While top loading H-axis washers don't require same sort of port hole seal to keep water in as front loaders, there are other issues.
Most if not nearly all domestic top loading H-axis washers are narrow. This is not just for design purposes of fitting into tight spaces, but also helps with stability. Ten to twelve pounds (dry weight) of wet laundry can be quite heavy and machine must be able to balance and spin that load without tipping over.
When you start going into 18lbs to 20lbs range (dry weight capacity) you're talking about a different design of top loading h-axis washer. That would be one commonly found in commercial or industrial laundries for over one hundred years, a "pony" type washer that is wide but not necessarily so deep. This allows capacity to increase way beyond say 6 kilos but a machine that can be far more rock solid.
Problem with above is washing machines of all sorts for domestic use tend to come in set cabinet widths for host of reasons. WP long has had patent for a top loading h-axis washer that looks like some of smaller pony washers long found in Europe, but thus far they've done nothing on that score.
My guess is no one other than Laundry Alternative has bothered with top loading h-axis washers in USA is numbers just don't pencil out. That is cost of R&D along with other bits versus potential units sold don't seem worth bothering.
Above more so since again Americans seem intent on having H-axis washers with ever increasing capacity. Where once "compact" 5 kilo washers would do market has moved over to about 18lbs capacity.
Industrial/commercial laundries long solved capacity issues with side or top loading h-axis washing machines by going with a design that had wider tub but not always so deep. This design persists to this day in everything from small "pony" washers to mammoth machines with rated capacity in hundreds of pounds.
Back in day such washers were just that, things were moved to a separate extractor to be spun dry. When such machines began to extract you needed a robust design including suspension system. You're taking heavy wet laundry and distributing load along a long tub. This can lead to OOB issues and when that happens all heck breaks lose.
Top loading H-axis washing machines have long been popular in Europe. This especially in France and elsewhere that often are space challenged for a washing machine. But we're talking about machines with capacity of 3 to nearly or six kilograms. That is about upper limit one can go without having issues regarding depth of tub for a start.
Design and build of h-axis washing machines in general is more complicated than top loaders with central beaters or impellers. While top loading H-axis washers don't require same sort of port hole seal to keep water in as front loaders, there are other issues.
Most if not nearly all domestic top loading H-axis washers are narrow. This is not just for design purposes of fitting into tight spaces, but also helps with stability. Ten to twelve pounds (dry weight) of wet laundry can be quite heavy and machine must be able to balance and spin that load without tipping over.
When you start going into 18lbs to 20lbs range (dry weight capacity) you're talking about a different design of top loading h-axis washer. That would be one commonly found in commercial or industrial laundries for over one hundred years, a "pony" type washer that is wide but not necessarily so deep. This allows capacity to increase way beyond say 6 kilos but a machine that can be far more rock solid.
Problem with above is washing machines of all sorts for domestic use tend to come in set cabinet widths for host of reasons. WP long has had patent for a top loading h-axis washer that looks like some of smaller pony washers long found in Europe, but thus far they've done nothing on that score.
My guess is no one other than Laundry Alternative has bothered with top loading h-axis washers in USA is numbers just don't pencil out. That is cost of R&D along with other bits versus potential units sold don't seem worth bothering.
Above more so since again Americans seem intent on having H-axis washers with ever increasing capacity. Where once "compact" 5 kilo washers would do market has moved over to about 18lbs capacity.
Industrial/commercial laundries long solved capacity issues with side or top loading h-axis washing machines by going with a design that had wider tub but not always so deep. This design persists to this day in everything from small "pony" washers to mammoth machines with rated capacity in hundreds of pounds.
Back in day such washers were just that, things were moved to a separate extractor to be spun dry. When such machines began to extract you needed a robust design including suspension system. You're taking heavy wet laundry and distributing load along a long tub. This can lead to OOB issues and when that happens all heck breaks lose.
Don't forget staber washers here in the US. But I have zero experience with them nor do I know anyone who owns or has used one.
www.staber.com
www.staber.com
Staber top load tumble washers
Are still being made in Ohio and have been made for nearly 30 years, we have one my brother has one many other people I know have had them, it’s an interesting machine. We always thought that it should’ve been 50% bigger. The cabinet is big enough to increase the tub size the machine they’re making is about 2 ft.³. It will do about 12 pounds of laundry at best.
While I believe it’s a neat design I see little purpose in a top loading tumble, action machine and I prefer tumble action washers. If you’re tight for space a 24 inch front load washer does a lot of laundry and is well perfected, you can even mount them on a pedestal to make them easier to use an access.
There are a lot of inherent problems with the top loading Tumblr machine with things getting caught around the Tumblr problems with the hatch safety issues with getting your fingers pinched jammed in there, etc., and loading and unloading I really don’t see That will make it in the US because of much much bigger machine would be necessary for volume sales.
John
Are still being made in Ohio and have been made for nearly 30 years, we have one my brother has one many other people I know have had them, it’s an interesting machine. We always thought that it should’ve been 50% bigger. The cabinet is big enough to increase the tub size the machine they’re making is about 2 ft.³. It will do about 12 pounds of laundry at best.
While I believe it’s a neat design I see little purpose in a top loading tumble, action machine and I prefer tumble action washers. If you’re tight for space a 24 inch front load washer does a lot of laundry and is well perfected, you can even mount them on a pedestal to make them easier to use an access.
There are a lot of inherent problems with the top loading Tumblr machine with things getting caught around the Tumblr problems with the hatch safety issues with getting your fingers pinched jammed in there, etc., and loading and unloading I really don’t see That will make it in the US because of much much bigger machine would be necessary for volume sales.
John
"..I see little purpose in a top loading tumble, action machine and I prefer tumble action washers. If you’re tight for space a 24 inch front load washer does a lot of laundry and is well perfected, you can even mount them on a pedestal to make them easier to use an access."
Well you wouldn't would you? I mean generally you don't have much use for European washing machines.
Being as that may those either from that side of pond or have visited often enough can see the "purpose" of a top loading h-axis washer.
Living quarters being what they are in many parts of Europe finding room for a washing machine can be a challenge. Thus it is immediately apparent a washer of 82cm H / 40cm wide / 60cm deep will fit where a 23-24 inch wide cabinet will not.
From tiny garret apartments to small homes top loading h-axis washers can be installed anywhere from a tiny galley kitchen to a small bathroom.
Glancing over at my AEG toplader next to Haier portable the former while only slightly taller but nearly same width has capacity of 5.5 kilos. To wit a full wash load of bit over 12 pounds. Meanwhile the Haier portable can barely manage three.
As for rest of European top loading h-axis washers have vastly overhauled many design aspects including latching inner tub closed. While suppose in any incarnation some clueless person could get their fingers or whatever caught, generally that doesn't happen. One simply pushes doors down and they latch themselves. This system in one way or another is pretty much standard now across domestic and commercial side or top loading h-axis washers.
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?11981
[this post was last edited: 10/20/2024-13:53]
Well you wouldn't would you? I mean generally you don't have much use for European washing machines.
Being as that may those either from that side of pond or have visited often enough can see the "purpose" of a top loading h-axis washer.
Living quarters being what they are in many parts of Europe finding room for a washing machine can be a challenge. Thus it is immediately apparent a washer of 82cm H / 40cm wide / 60cm deep will fit where a 23-24 inch wide cabinet will not.
From tiny garret apartments to small homes top loading h-axis washers can be installed anywhere from a tiny galley kitchen to a small bathroom.
Glancing over at my AEG toplader next to Haier portable the former while only slightly taller but nearly same width has capacity of 5.5 kilos. To wit a full wash load of bit over 12 pounds. Meanwhile the Haier portable can barely manage three.
As for rest of European top loading h-axis washers have vastly overhauled many design aspects including latching inner tub closed. While suppose in any incarnation some clueless person could get their fingers or whatever caught, generally that doesn't happen. One simply pushes doors down and they latch themselves. This system in one way or another is pretty much standard now across domestic and commercial side or top loading h-axis washers.
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?11981
[this post was last edited: 10/20/2024-13:53]
Staber washers
Don't know if quality has improved over years but at least one member, late "Sudsman" had nothing but problems with them.
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?8477
One thing apparently hasn't changed, Staber does not have a large (or any?) dedicated repair/service tech system. If you own one and something happens you're likely on your own.
Size of Staber washer proves points made above, to get anywhere near capacity Americans expect from a washing machine you'll need a large footprint. Staber washer is about same size as other standard or "HE" top loaders on market.
https://www.staber.com/residential-clothes-washers
https://www.govdeals.com/asset/2025/2269
https://www.lighthouseenterprises.us/Staber/staber.htm
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?6485
Don't know if quality has improved over years but at least one member, late "Sudsman" had nothing but problems with them.
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?8477
One thing apparently hasn't changed, Staber does not have a large (or any?) dedicated repair/service tech system. If you own one and something happens you're likely on your own.
Size of Staber washer proves points made above, to get anywhere near capacity Americans expect from a washing machine you'll need a large footprint. Staber washer is about same size as other standard or "HE" top loaders on market.
https://www.staber.com/residential-clothes-washers
https://www.govdeals.com/asset/2025/2269
https://www.lighthouseenterprises.us/Staber/staber.htm
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?6485
Now and then one has regrets about not nabbing a LA "Niagara" washer being offered locally on fleaPay.
It was a storage unit find auction where seller nabbed two and was moving one on.
At time believe already owned or was shortly due to receive AEG toplader or maybe it was the Maytag wringer.
Just didn't see need for washer that didn't extract regardless of capacity. Anything one would have wanted to fit into washer such as a large blanket or quilt would need extracting. What then? If one had a Bock type extractor that would have been another matter, but such large items wouldn't fit in my domestic sort of spin driers.
It was a storage unit find auction where seller nabbed two and was moving one on.
At time believe already owned or was shortly due to receive AEG toplader or maybe it was the Maytag wringer.
Just didn't see need for washer that didn't extract regardless of capacity. Anything one would have wanted to fit into washer such as a large blanket or quilt would need extracting. What then? If one had a Bock type extractor that would have been another matter, but such large items wouldn't fit in my domestic sort of spin driers.
There's a matching spin dryer for the Niagara...
verizonbear
Well-known member
What happened to the proposed combo models??
"We're also working on a fully automatic HATL washer, a fully automatic HATL washer-dryer combo with a VENTED dryer (220V Electric or 110V Gas) and a fully automatic HATL washer-dryer combo with a condensing dryer (110V Electric)."
What ever happened to these proposed models? Is this company still in business?
"We're also working on a fully automatic HATL washer, a fully automatic HATL washer-dryer combo with a VENTED dryer (220V Electric or 110V Gas) and a fully automatic HATL washer-dryer combo with a condensing dryer (110V Electric)."
What ever happened to these proposed models? Is this company still in business?
sunspot42
Member
Combo models
They're still around, but they posted upthread that the increase in manufacturing costs ended the production of the Niagara.
I think they should have just upped the price. Everything else has gone up due to inflation. People are used to it at this point.
I think they also needed a better video explaining why most of those little top loaders - even the ones with a spin cycle - suck. Because I had one and they do suck.
Of course, the problem is they sell those, too...
The more I think about this, the more I'm surprised nobody has come up with a viable alternative to the spin cycle in the past 50 years. It adds tons of weight and complexity to washing machines. There has to be a better way to squish water out of clothes than spinning them at 1600rpm and all the power and suspension requirements and weight that comes along with that method of extraction.
I know back in the '50s someone - might have been Frigidaire - created a washing machine that used airbags to squish the laundry dry. Came right out of the agitator. Inflated by an air pump. But that design never took off.
In a drum-based machine like the Niagara I can think of a couple of additional methods you might be able to use to squish laundry dry that wouldn't involve the weight and complexity of a high-speed spin...
They're still around, but they posted upthread that the increase in manufacturing costs ended the production of the Niagara.
I think they should have just upped the price. Everything else has gone up due to inflation. People are used to it at this point.
I think they also needed a better video explaining why most of those little top loaders - even the ones with a spin cycle - suck. Because I had one and they do suck.
Of course, the problem is they sell those, too...
The more I think about this, the more I'm surprised nobody has come up with a viable alternative to the spin cycle in the past 50 years. It adds tons of weight and complexity to washing machines. There has to be a better way to squish water out of clothes than spinning them at 1600rpm and all the power and suspension requirements and weight that comes along with that method of extraction.
I know back in the '50s someone - might have been Frigidaire - created a washing machine that used airbags to squish the laundry dry. Came right out of the agitator. Inflated by an air pump. But that design never took off.
In a drum-based machine like the Niagara I can think of a couple of additional methods you might be able to use to squish laundry dry that wouldn't involve the weight and complexity of a high-speed spin...
Far as domestic laundry is concerned nothing else really compares to spin extraction in terms of simplicity, efficacy, safety and some other bits.
There are only a handful of methods to extract water from textiles.
You can squeeze it out via application of mechanical force (wringers, power presses, bladder presses, wringing/twisting, etc...)
Or, force water out via extraction by centrifugal force (hydro extractors).
As mentioned there were some early on inventions that used water or other filled bladders to squeeze out water from wash. They weren't very effective and or had other issues which made them inferior to spin extraction.
You would have to scale up forces to what is seen with industrial/commercial power presses used to extract in tunnel/batch washers to get same sort of results as hydro-extractors. That just isn't possible for domestic or really even some commercial washers.
There are only a handful of methods to extract water from textiles.
You can squeeze it out via application of mechanical force (wringers, power presses, bladder presses, wringing/twisting, etc...)
Or, force water out via extraction by centrifugal force (hydro extractors).
As mentioned there were some early on inventions that used water or other filled bladders to squeeze out water from wash. They weren't very effective and or had other issues which made them inferior to spin extraction.
You would have to scale up forces to what is seen with industrial/commercial power presses used to extract in tunnel/batch washers to get same sort of results as hydro-extractors. That just isn't possible for domestic or really even some commercial washers.
"I know back in the '50s someone - might have been Frigidaire - created a washing machine that used airbags to squish the laundry dry. Came right out of the agitator. Inflated by an air pump. But that design never took off."
IIRC that would be "Economat" by Bendix. Those machines were not a resounding success for a litany of reasons and weren't long for this world.
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?32955
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?8634
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?73048_7
As always it pays to wander about the archives...
https://www.google.com/search?q=Bendix+"Rubber+Tub"+washer+site:www.automaticwasher.org&client=opera&hs=whL&sca_esv=444e26e92038851a&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjnzJngyPWJAxUSjokEHVuxF0AQrQIoBHoECBkQBQ&biw=983&bih=671&dpr=1.3
IIRC that would be "Economat" by Bendix. Those machines were not a resounding success for a litany of reasons and weren't long for this world.
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?32955
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?8634
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?73048_7
As always it pays to wander about the archives...
https://www.google.com/search?q=Bendix+"Rubber+Tub"+washer+site:www.automaticwasher.org&client=opera&hs=whL&sca_esv=444e26e92038851a&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjnzJngyPWJAxUSjokEHVuxF0AQrQIoBHoECBkQBQ&biw=983&bih=671&dpr=1.3
Why hydro extractors won out...
Hydro extractors first as separate machine then later as "washer/extractors" came to dominate laundries or washing machines is quite simple to understand. Using centrifugal force works well with things that are in a round container such as wash tub.
Squeezing or other application of force requires a firm surface to press wash against in order to obtain any decent extraction leading to lower residual moisture levels.
With wringers this is easily understood. Two hard rollers or one soft and one hard (a la Maytag) squeeze water out of textiles. Even so best extraction power wringers could manage equaled only about 250 rpm spin speed.
Press extractors really only began being looked at again as batch/tunnel washing machines have evolved over past several decades. Their growing expansion and adoption by laundries of all sorts world wide meant developing fast, efficient and safe ways to extract water from goods.
Batch/tunnel washers by nature cannot extract between pre-wash, wash and subsequent rinse cycles. As have said this mimics way laundry was done for ages (and still is by some) in industrial setting. Things are washed, rinsed, then finally extracted.
All and all a press will deliver better extraction with tunnel washers than hydro-extractors. That being said there are hydro-extractors available for tunnel wash systems and they are chosen based upon needs of laundry in question.
Aside from other issues those bladder/squeeze domestic washing machines left things wetter than other washers of day that spun things dry. IIRC results weren't much better or could be worse than using a power wringer. This is why the idea died and and hasn't returned.
https://www.gabraun.com/news/squeeze-or-spin-tunnel-washer-extractor-options/
https://www.texfinity.com/dynmedia/ca42c21779220176155fa1b295e88958
Hydro extractors first as separate machine then later as "washer/extractors" came to dominate laundries or washing machines is quite simple to understand. Using centrifugal force works well with things that are in a round container such as wash tub.
Squeezing or other application of force requires a firm surface to press wash against in order to obtain any decent extraction leading to lower residual moisture levels.
With wringers this is easily understood. Two hard rollers or one soft and one hard (a la Maytag) squeeze water out of textiles. Even so best extraction power wringers could manage equaled only about 250 rpm spin speed.
Press extractors really only began being looked at again as batch/tunnel washing machines have evolved over past several decades. Their growing expansion and adoption by laundries of all sorts world wide meant developing fast, efficient and safe ways to extract water from goods.
Batch/tunnel washers by nature cannot extract between pre-wash, wash and subsequent rinse cycles. As have said this mimics way laundry was done for ages (and still is by some) in industrial setting. Things are washed, rinsed, then finally extracted.
All and all a press will deliver better extraction with tunnel washers than hydro-extractors. That being said there are hydro-extractors available for tunnel wash systems and they are chosen based upon needs of laundry in question.
Aside from other issues those bladder/squeeze domestic washing machines left things wetter than other washers of day that spun things dry. IIRC results weren't much better or could be worse than using a power wringer. This is why the idea died and and hasn't returned.
https://www.gabraun.com/news/squeeze-or-spin-tunnel-washer-extractor-options/
https://www.texfinity.com/dynmedia/ca42c21779220176155fa1b295e88958
Here's another thing
Problem with pressing/squeezing out water from wash is that application of forces required can (and often did back in old days of wringers) damage certain textiles or things attached to them.
When wringers were used to extract water from wash they were famous for cracking buttons and otherwise damaging other closures things. Housewives, laundresses, laundries or whoever else was doing wash often removed all buttons or other closures from things before they went to wash, then sewed them back on again afterwards. No such damage occurs with hydro-extraction.
Same sort of damage occurs still today with shirts and other garments sent to dry cleaners or laundries where iron presses are used to finish things instead of hand ironing. Shirts, blouses, duvet covers, coats.. the lot often return sooner or later with cracked or damaged buttons.
Problem with pressing/squeezing out water from wash is that application of forces required can (and often did back in old days of wringers) damage certain textiles or things attached to them.
When wringers were used to extract water from wash they were famous for cracking buttons and otherwise damaging other closures things. Housewives, laundresses, laundries or whoever else was doing wash often removed all buttons or other closures from things before they went to wash, then sewed them back on again afterwards. No such damage occurs with hydro-extraction.
Same sort of damage occurs still today with shirts and other garments sent to dry cleaners or laundries where iron presses are used to finish things instead of hand ironing. Shirts, blouses, duvet covers, coats.. the lot often return sooner or later with cracked or damaged buttons.
sunspot42
Member
Bendix
Yes, the Bendix was the one I was thinking of!
Yes, the Bendix was the one I was thinking of!
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