Are New Appliances Always Doomed? Why A Grass Roots Movement Could Change Things

[Chetlaham]

This video makes an excellent case as to why modern appliances are so lack luster in reliability. It explores 6 potential causes: Cost, Compliance, Corporations, Computers, Complexity and Conspiracy. And also proposes a solution of customers buying appliances based on reliability along with people demanding changes within the laws which govern energy efficiency.

Personally I agree with all the points and solutions offered in this video. My honest opinion is that the only way things will get better is through a grass roots movement where people learn, act and shop for simple, dependable, well built appliances. He mentions that doing such could actually bring back old proven designs.

I am all for this. However we must first get the word out and do it in such a way as to bring about a growing movement.




What do others think? Agree, disagree, thoughts?

 

[vacerator]

I've seen him. Eh. So many others too and they don't know half of what members here know. I don't agree with telling shoppers to avoid certain features or brands which differ very little between each. Things are what they are. You need appliances to clean, chill, cook and freeze. Choices are vast. News of performance and quality travel from the consumer to others. I highly doubt that corporate deciders care what we think.
We complain about the price of food, fuel, utilities etc. We don't choose to walk, go hungry, or wash garments in a stream on rocks, but you can if you want to.

 

[Zoey]

Thanks! I learned a lot from that video about today's appliance market. He also consulted off the record with a former appliance engineer from a major company.

He explains in a fair amount of depth how government regulations, changing consumer preferences, and market forces have contributed to our present situation of increasing complexity, reduced reliability and serviceability, unaffordable replacement parts, and planned obsolescence.

One thing I found particularly interesting is retail price trends. He shows a 1991 Lady Kenmore washer with a $555 list price. With inflation that would be over $1300 today. That seems to go a long way towards explaining why a machine like the Speed Queen TC5 costs as much as it does. I guess maybe I should keep fixing my 2003 Kenmore direct drive.

 

[daveamkrayoguy]

The thing I see adding an admission to these abundance of fallacies is all these Out of Warranty Service Plans and Protection Programs…

Ways to collect all your money if something breaks before it breaks and then when it does no one can fix it…

If you do give them enough money to buy you a new appliance will they actually do that?

Chances are if that’s the official agreement and these shady contractors make any kind of good on it, the new appliance you replace the old one with might be just as bad and you’ll all along be enrolled in this false or unsure protection for that!

Maybe it will prove to be a lemon even sooner but you’ll not have invested enough to be given that new one you’d been promised like before…

 

[pierreandreply4]

i would say sometime a little wisdom is needed (poll to follow) buying a washer depends on one needs or features

 

[phillymatt53]

The thing I see adding an admission to these abundance of fallacies is all these Out of Warranty Service Plans and Protection Programs…

Ways to collect all your money if something breaks before it breaks and then when it does no one can fix it…

If you do give them enough money to buy you a new appliance will they actually do that?

Chances are if that’s the official agreement and these shady contractors make any kind of good on it, the new appliance you replace the old one with might be just as bad and you’ll all along be enrolled in this false or unsure protection for that!

Maybe it will prove to be a lemon even sooner but you’ll not have invested enough to be given that new one you’d been promised like before…

I get all those annoying tv commercials that advertize joining their home appliance or automobile repair "NOW, before it breaks down!" crap.

It always references that one powerful thing that's used universally in all advertizing.
It's called Fear.
Classic subliminal messaging used to sell anything these days..... from Snake Oil, to Snot-rags, to Toilet Paper.
Along with a sneaky crafted message that if you DO join and pay a small fixed monthly fee, you won't have to "worry" about having to pay a lot to replace/repair your broken-down hunk of crap with another one.

It seems to me, that if you live within your means, use Common Sense, and put money aside for any potential issues, you won't have to rely on these goofy commercials.
Of course, Common Sense is in short supply these days.
A good part of that is the constant brainwashing of society to spend money on things, anything, so that your bank account droops down like a ghetto thug's pants.
Thanks to the "convenience" of Amazon, smartphones, and the internet sales sites.

 

[michaelz08]

Beyond the "it costs half as much because you want to pay half as much" point- which I feel covers a lot of the issues facing modern appliances- to those of you who work in appliance repair, are failure rates really that much higher now or is it also:

> Different types of failures (DC motors, control boards for example) that are more indivually expensive
> The repair vs replace equation being heavily rebalanced now by rising labor costs yet lower MSRPs? (Assuming people call for service).
> The internet now being a way to amplify frustration with failures? Versus in the past there was no such forum.

Another remark: I feel like so many of the issues I read online stem from bad control boards now, and I'm a little lost as to why. Often times these aren't necessarily complicated computers and theoretically it shouldn't be hard or expensive to design a board to last decades. Or is it not as widespread as it seems (apart from Whirlpool's VMW board issues, which seem pretty bad) relating to point #3?

I have some of 20-30 year old electronics and I seldom have had issues... even my 80s/90s Machintoshes, Nakamichi receiver, and cassette deck have their original electrolytic capacitors but no known issues to speak of. Even my 17 year old Wolf electric wall oven is fully digital, with a glass touch control panel, and works great. Apart from those caps and memory chips (depending on how often they're written to, their size, and if there is wear leveling), on a component level I don't quite get what could be failing so early on modern appliances (assuming they're protected from water).

 

[lakewebsterkid]

Manufacturers have been trying to reduce production costs while increasing profits for decades. Newer machines still are a direct result of that. The issue I see is that people actually buy the crap that is made and replace it within a few years willingly in hopes that the replacement is better. Restrictions on water and energy use won’t help either when the machine does not perform as someone is used to. Lots of factors going on here.

 

[vacerator]

Those warranty plans are rip offs period. Anyone who pays even a quarter or a third of a vehicle payment per month for coverage is a poor money manager.
Throwing good money after bad. Why pay for half of a new item each year in coverage?

 

[daveamkrayoguy]

What gets me are those plugs for Car Shield...

Surely, long ago everything automotive you could depend on for reliable transportation, not this modern day money grab that they are trying to get everyone to feed into...

Another admission of laws of perfection, still defied by the admission of the purposeful manufacture of faulty products!

 

[me]

There's a similar themed video by a washing machine repairman complaining about planned obsolescence and in particular, sealed washing machine tubs here:



What he doesn't cover is the lower cost of the machine as a result of welding the tub instead of holding it together using screws and a seal, and how much it actually now costs to get a professional to change the bearings vs the cost of buying a nice and shiny new washing machine that's also guaranteed to last for up to 5 year.

 

[phillymatt53]

Apart from those caps and memory chips (depending on how often they're written to, their size, and if there is wear leveling), on a component level I don't quite get what could be failing so early on modern appliances (assuming they're protected from water).

That's an easy one to diagnose.
The Outsourcing of manufacture, the lack of strict Quality Control, and the choice of Venders for critical parts, along with cost-cutting.

I've seen countless products come through the shop over the years, and in comparing the ones made in earlier times, to the current crop of crap, it's clear to me, and other service techs what has taken place.
"Make it pretty, but make it cheaper".
Eproms, clock timing chips, installed in products are a suspect that us techs have discussed in length for years now.
We've often wondered why some IC's have their identification purposely scraped or ground off, covered up with paint, or have untraceable numbers so that we can't find a replacement or any info on.
Because that chip is set to a specific time (years of use) which eventually triggers a change in performance designed to cause an eventual failure to a product.
It's easy for a timing chip to change a resistor to another one with a different value.
Cutbacks on some heat-prone semiconductors like regulator chips by omitting a required heatsink are often missing, pushing the IC towards eventual failure.

This all started back around the 1980s, and slowly, increasingly evolved when China and a few other Asian countries were brought into the picture.
At the same time, society's thinking regarding the "throw-away mentality" was born from advertizing to boost revenue for corporations - that nasty "greed" factor. - "Upgrade!.... the new products are better!"

No one can tell me differently about this, because I've seen it many times in the recent decades on my service bench.

 

[phillymatt53]

What gets me are those plugs for Car Shield...

Surely, long ago everything automotive you could depend on for reliable transportation, not this modern day money grab that they are trying to get everyone to feed into...

Another admission of laws of perfection, still defied by the admission of the purposeful manufacture of faulty products!

Dave, I've gotten to the point of sitting on my sofa with the remote control in my hand, finger ready to hit the "mute" button whenever a commercial comes on.
And those damned "Just $19 a month, Only 63 cents a day" tearjerker commercials are just as annoying.

 

[phillymatt53]

And... to add to my previous rant about commercials....
Those multiple types of annoying "Won't you donate?, just $19 a month?" commercials are some big SCAM just to take your money.
Do you really KNOW where your $19 donation really goes?
I bet you'd never find the true answer to that.
And I bet you'll never get that "Adorable Blanket" or Tee shirt either.

I did some digging about it...
For all I know or care, it likely winds up in some secret organisation's bank account that doesn't have society's best interests in mind.
Just because they SAY a donation helps, along with the videos of chained-up dogs, children with afflictions in hospitals, etc...... the person SAYING the benefits - is simply reading a cue card or teleprompter, and is TOLD to say that crap.
Notice how they do not look at the camera, but off to the side... to read.
Doesn't mean it's real.
I can see through the bullcrap easily.

 

[michaelz08]

Because that chip is set to a specific time (years of use) which eventually triggers a change in performance designed to cause an eventual failure to a product.
It's easy for a timing chip to change a resistor to another one with a different value.

Are you implying that you believe there are programmed-in "bombs" implemented to reduce performance and encourage a consumer to seek a replacement, with the thinking that "it's just old and time for a new one"?

 

[vacerator]

As for time bomb chips, I had a nice LG flip phone that just suddenly wouldn't power up after it was about 4 or 5 years old. My sister in law also had one that did it. So who knows for sure? Many newer audio components have updatable firmware versions from time to time. So it may not work or work correctly without them, but can they include a limited lifespan code?

 

[ea56]

Re:#16
Mike,
It could be that your 4 to 5 year old LG Flip Phone was 3G. I don’t believe that there is a cell service left that still supports 3G. They've all gone to either 4G or 5G.

The phone itself may still be functional but without a 3G network it just won’t work. Both David and I went through this a couple of years ago with the perfectly good LG 3G Flip Phones we had when Tracfone no longer supported 3G. We’ve both since ditched Tracfone and went to Lively Jitterbug SMART 4 phones, a vast improvement over Tracfone.

Eddie

 

[phillymatt53]

Are you implying that you believe there are programmed-in "bombs" implemented to reduce performance and encourage a consumer to seek a replacement, with the thinking that "it's just old and time for a new one"?

I'm not implying, it's what I, along with other technicians have come across in our profession as professional service techs.
We have websites that are strictly for us professionals, closed to any non-techs/DIYers, etc., where we discuss many topics.
We just don't want distractions of amateurs asking questions, there are other websites for that stuff.
This keeps out the rift-raff from fouling up the site.
In order to access the site and be a member, we have to first prove that we have the qualifications, the certifications, and are currently employed at a service shop.
And we have to send a yearly payment on our business checks.
We share and trade among us our findings, tips, and service info to stay abreast of what's going on in the tech world.

 

[vacerator]

Eddie, I had that LG flip phone back from 2009 to 2014.

 

[phillymatt53]

Re:#16
Mike,
It could be that your 4 to 5 year old LG Flip Phone was 3G. I don’t believe that there is a cell service left that still supports 3G. They've all gone to either 4G or 5G.

The phone itself may still be functional but without a 3G network it just won’t work. Both David and I went through this a couple of years ago with the perfectly good LG 3G Flip Phones we had when Tracfone no longer supported 3G. We’ve both since ditched Tracfone and went to Lively Jitterbug SMART 4 phones, a vast improvement over Tracfone.

Eddie

And when my perfectly good 3G Kyocera phone was deemed unuseable when 3G stopped, along with Verizon ripping me off for $50 that I had on my account, I decided to eliminate, to get-off-the-merry-go-round of that cellphone crap.
I was retired, no need to bind my ass to a mobile phone anymore, my landline is all I need.
And ya know what?
The terrific feeling of freedom was like a breath of fresh air!
Not to mention one less bill to worry about.

 

[vacerator]

Oh, I wasn't retired. I stopped working in 2011 to help my ailing and aging folks. I had to be reachable at all times by my sister's and parents. I live 40 minutes away in good weather and traffic. After the next flip phone, which I mistakenly washed in a pair of jeans, hubby got me a smart phone. We're on a senior plan now.

 

[phillymatt53]

Oh, I wasn't retired. I stopped working in 2011 to help my ailing and aging folks. I had to be reachable at all times by my sister's and parents. I live 40 minutes away in good weather and traffic. After the next flip phone, which I mistakenly washed in a pair of jeans, hubby got me a smart phone. We're on a senior plan now.

In some cases, like yours, a cellphone is warranted and useful.

However, a lot of society has unfortunatly become puppets, addicted, and abuse the devices.

 

[ea56]

In todays world there are virtually no pay phones anywhere. If an emergency should arise a cell phone is the only way to quickly summon aid/assistance. Yes, lots of folks are addicted to their devices, and I might add websites too.

Plus lots of businesses use 3rd party verif. and a cellphone is many times the easiest way to utilize this security service.

I seldom make calls on my cell, I very seldom and selectively give out my cell number. I actually use the SMS system the most. And I never use my cell to connect to the internet and surf the net or other wise. This phone is a tool for emergencies and necessities of the modern world.

Eddie

 

[wayupnorth]

They always tell you to CALL NOW and open your wallet for those useless extended warranties. If I could figure out HOW to run my smartphone, I would be happy.

 

[michaelz08]

I'm not implying, it's what I, along with other technicians have come across in our profession as professional service techs.
We have websites that are strictly for us professionals, closed to any non-techs/DIYers, etc., where we discuss many topics.
We just don't want distractions of amateurs asking questions, there are other websites for that stuff.
This keeps out the rift-raff from fouling up the site.
In order to access the site and be a member, we have to first prove that we have the qualifications, the certifications, and are currently employed at a service shop.
And we have to send a yearly payment on our business checks.
We share and trade among us our findings, tips, and service info to stay abreast of what's going on in the tech world.

Frankly, this is a very paranoid perspective to take.

Firstly, focusing on appliances, many of them don’t have any way of persisting long term metric tracking. An average dishwasher or washer may only run from read-only memory and operate with a real time operating system, with volatile memory that doesn’t persist if the power cycles (which in any time span, it will). So I don’t think that it’s even feasible in many appliances to include such a time bomb. And in a simple appliance, they might even have to spend extra money to build in that sort of hardware to enable it!

But let’s say you have something that does have a small amount of non volatile memory- after all, you’d only need a few bytes to count time or cycles. Surely you’d see them dropping dead en masse in such numbers that would prompt a class action lawsuit? Because that would mean a near 100% failure rate.

Taking it a step further, perhaps they use a randomizer of some sort to make it only 40% of units have a time bomb. Then they’d be shooting their own reputation in the foot? I think we can all acknowledge if an appliance dies in a short time frame, you’re much less likely to buy from the same brand.

If this was really something done by a big manufacturer, the software developer would certainly have leaked this code to the FTC or similar agency, or to a news agency. Do you know how many people have to see, edit, review, comment on, approve code for it to be sent to production facilities? The answer is a LOT.

Now… I’m sure that somewhere, it’s happened. Perhaps not a full deliberate code time bomb failure, but a performance reduction. What can happen, will happen at least once, by someone’s hand.

But to assert that this is widespread or any level of common, and by major industry players, but then say the proof is “in private communities where you have to prove qualifications” amounts to “trust me bro”.

The reality is simple: cost reductions mean, intentional or not, some failures happen in a shorter time than we’d like due to cheaper parts. Maybe less of a protection on motor coil windings. Less heat dissipation on a triac, as someone mentioned. Poor solder joints on a relay that eventually cause a high-heat condition on the board. Or even circuitry thats perfectly fine, and just can’t handle a small power surge. It’s not a conspiracy.

 

[william8]

Frankly, this is a very paranoid perspective to take.

Firstly, focusing on appliances, many of them don’t have any way of persisting long term metric tracking. An average dishwasher or washer may only run from read-only memory and operate with a real time operating system, with volatile memory that doesn’t persist if the power cycles (which in any time span, it will). So I don’t think that it’s even feasible in many appliances to include such a time bomb. And in a simple appliance, they might even have to spend extra money to build in that sort of hardware to enable it!

But let’s say you have something that does have a small amount of non volatile memory- after all, you’d only need a few bytes to count time or cycles. Surely you’d see them dropping dead en masse in such numbers that would prompt a class action lawsuit? Because that would mean a near 100% failure rate.

Taking it a step further, perhaps they use a randomizer of some sort to make it only 40% of units have a time bomb. Then they’d be shooting their own reputation in the foot? I think we can all acknowledge if an appliance dies in a short time frame, you’re much less likely to buy from the same brand.

If this was really something done by a big manufacturer, the software developer would certainly have leaked this code to the FTC or similar agency, or to a news agency. Do you know how many people have to see, edit, review, comment on, approve code for it to be sent to production facilities? The answer is a LOT.

Now… I’m sure that somewhere, it’s happened. Perhaps not a full deliberate code time bomb failure, but a performance reduction. What can happen, will happen at least once, by someone’s hand.

But to assert that this is widespread or any level of common, and by major industry players, but then say the proof is “in private communities where you have to prove qualifications” amounts to “trust me bro”.

The reality is simple: cost reductions mean, intentional or not, some failures happen in a shorter time than we’d like due to cheaper parts. Maybe less of a protection on motor coil windings. Less heat dissipation on a triac, as someone mentioned. Poor solder joins on a relay that eventually cause a high-heat condition on the board. Or even circuitry thats perfectly fine, and just can’t handle a small power surge. It’s not a conspiracy.

The reason identifying marks are removed from IC chips (which has been happening since the 80's) is so that people/manufacturers can't reverse engineer the product, or do home repairs. It's also done in high end audio, so the end user doesn't realize his "audiophile" equipment uses common off the shelf chips found in mainstream brands, and is nothing special.

I'd love a link to these secret tech sites, even if we can't access them. Or is the whole site invisible?

 

[phillymatt53]

Frankly, this is a very paranoid perspective to take.

Firstly, focusing on appliances, many of them don’t have any way of persisting long term metric tracking. An average dishwasher or washer may only run from read-only memory and operate with a real time operating system, with volatile memory that doesn’t persist if the power cycles (which in any time span, it will). So I don’t think that it’s even feasible in many appliances to include such a time bomb. And in a simple appliance, they might even have to spend extra money to build in that sort of hardware to enable it!

But let’s say you have something that does have a small amount of non volatile memory- after all, you’d only need a few bytes to count time or cycles. Surely you’d see them dropping dead en masse in such numbers that would prompt a class action lawsuit? Because that would mean a near 100% failure rate.

Taking it a step further, perhaps they use a randomizer of some sort to make it only 40% of units have a time bomb. Then they’d be shooting their own reputation in the foot? I think we can all acknowledge if an appliance dies in a short time frame, you’re much less likely to buy from the same brand.

If this was really something done by a big manufacturer, the software developer would certainly have leaked this code to the FTC or similar agency, or to a news agency. Do you know how many people have to see, edit, review, comment on, approve code for it to be sent to production facilities? The answer is a LOT.

Now… I’m sure that somewhere, it’s happened. Perhaps not a full deliberate code time bomb failure, but a performance reduction. What can happen, will happen at least once, by someone’s hand.

But to assert that this is widespread or any level of common, and by major industry players, but then say the proof is “in private communities where you have to prove qualifications” amounts to “trust me bro”.

The reality is simple: cost reductions mean, intentional or not, some failures happen in a shorter time than we’d like due to cheaper parts. Maybe less of a protection on motor coil windings. Less heat dissipation on a triac, as someone mentioned. Poor solder joins on a relay that eventually cause a high-heat condition on the board. Or even circuitry thats perfectly fine, and just can’t handle a small power surge. It’s not a conspiracy.

You seem to maintain your own clearly biased opinions and speculate on things, which you are free to do.
However, I've got decades of experience in my field of professional servicing, and you sound like you know more than me - which you are also free to do.
Also, I'm certainly not prone to paranoia as you imply.
I state the facts, I don't mince words, and I believe in stating honestly from experience what I know, what I've seen, and what others in my field have dealt with.
So you can chew on and debate all of us techs, because we've heard it all.

 

[william8]

You seem to maintain your own clearly biased opinions and speculate on things, which you are free to do.
However, I've got decades of experience in my field of professional servicing, and you sound like you know more than me - which you are also free to do.
Also, I'm certainly not prone to paranoia as you imply.
I state the facts, I don't mince words, and I believe in stating honestly from experience what I know, what I've seen, and what others in my field have dealt with.
So you can chew on and debate all of us techs, because we've heard it all.

You seem to be the one speculating, you even state it here:.

We've often wondered why some IC's have their identification purposely scraped or ground off, covered up with paint, or have untraceable numbers so that we can't find a replacement or any info on.
Because that chip is set to a specific time (years of use) which eventually triggers a change in performance designed to cause an eventual failure to a product.

You "wonder" why the identification is removed. You don't "know" why it was removed. You never stated any facts. Just opinions, from an invisible website.

The schematic will identify exactly what that chip is. Of course you need to be an authorized repair facility to get that schematic, or know someone who is.

 

[logixx]

But let’s say you have something that does have a small amount of non volatile memory- after all, you’d only need a few bytes to count time or cycles.

Oh, the manual for both my washer and dryer state how to display total operating hours and cycles completed. These instructions are in BSH, AEG/Electrolux and Miele manuals, form what I have seen. Maybe other brands, too.

Maybe @henene4 can chime in if this is a requirement over here.

 

[henene4]

Oh, the manual for both my washer and dryer state how to display total operating hours and cycles completed. These instructions are in BSH, AEG/Electrolux and Miele manuals, form what I have seen. Maybe other brands, too.

Maybe @henene4 can chime in if this is a requirement over here.

I believe it is as part of some right to repair / eco design legislation.
I think it's from the same piece of legislation that requires manufacturers to have certain parts available for 7 or 10 years, depending on which parts and what product.

Even some very cheap manufacturers where very quick to comply with that regulation.
It's pretty easy to do and great if you want to get a used appliance.
And for most manufacturers that wasn't much work at all - many were building in counters anyway.
Miele had them since the Novotronic days.