Are New Appliances Always Doomed? Why A Grass Roots Movement Could Change Things

[henene4]

I did some quick research, and both me and my typical AI assistants are not capable to find a specific phrasing that would require manufacturers in the EU to provide cycle counters.
I am somewhat certain to have read that it is actually a requirement - either operating hour or cycle counters.

What is certain though is that in the period from 2024 to 2026 several directives and requirements for repairability, parts availability, circular economy stuff and warranty coverage have changed/will change.
Given that even some rather price orientated manufacturers have those counters now, I wouldn't be surprised it's just some way to cover some requirements under those regulations.

 

[DADoES]

My DishDrawer records the accumulated cycle count, separately for each drawer. I've not found a reference that the washers and dryers do so.

 

[michaelz08]

You seem to maintain your own clearly biased opinions and speculate on things, which you are free to do.
However, I've got decades of experience in my field of professional servicing, and you sound like you know more than me - which you are also free to do.
Also, I'm certainly not prone to paranoia as you imply.
I state the facts, I don't mince words, and I believe in stating honestly from experience what I know, what I've seen, and what others in my field have dealt with.
So you can chew on and debate all of us techs, because we've heard it all.

Biased opinions? I focused on factual points on why such an approach is either practically/technically not viable or not feasible as a method of designing products.

You have your service experience, which is credible and valuable, but are making assertions in the technical realm- with no support whatsoever to your claims- and the technical realm is my area of work.

The reason identifying marks are removed from IC chips (which has been happening since the 80's) is so that people/manufacturers can't reverse engineer the product, or do home repairs. It's also done in high end audio, so the end user doesn't realize his "audiophile" equipment uses common off the shelf chips found in mainstream brands, and is nothing special.

I'd love a link to these secret tech sites, even if we can't access them. Or is the whole site invisible?

This is absolutely correct. This has been the common practice for decades now.

What are you expecting to see if you scraped off the goop? A chip marked "APPLIANCE_DISABLER_M011 MANUFACTURED BY TSMC"?

Such a bomb would be in the CODE of the system, highly unlikely to be a dedicated chip. If you don't know that, you don't know enough to be making such a claim.

 

[phillymatt53]

Ya gotta love these so-called internet know-it-alls with their typical behavior of questioning, debating, and attempting to make others look less credible.

I could state that the sun comes up every morning, and they'd come back with "How can you be sure, if it's a cloudy day?"

Cracks me the hell up these types.

 

[simpsomatic]

Ya gotta love these so-called internet know-it-alls with their typical behavior of questioning, debating, and attempting to make others look less credible.

I could state that the sun comes up every morning, and they'd come back with "How can you be sure, if it's a cloudy day?"

Cracks me the hell up these types.

You don't realize you are describing yourself., again.......

 

[phillymatt53]

You don't realize you are describing yourself., again.......

LOL!

 

[me]

My 2009 Zanussi (Electrolux) has an operation hour counter, it's not in the manual, but is detailed in the 2007 service manual for the control board, which is also used in AEG machines etc. It maxes out at 6550 hours, and stops counting. Current AEG/electrolux models have their instructions to display the usage counter in the manual.

I'm well aware of the practices of having unmarked/lasered off chips and chips with custom identification codes, which is primarily done to make reverse engineering difficult, but also inhibits repair. It has been claimed that some manufactures have more recently done it to conceal their use of cheap cloned chips sourced from china, produced using stolen designs.

I remember hearing about a scam on the news years ago, carried out I think by a few photocopier repair companies; When their repairmen were called out to fix a fault, they would wire in a simple circuit board with a counter chip on it to trigger an error after a set period of time, so they'd get regular repeat business. If I recall correctly, they got caught and prosecuted, because the boss of one of the companies they ripped off got suspicious and found the hidden board and worked out what it did.

If any manufacturers were to engage in a practice of using "self-destructing" chips, their poor reliability would damage their brand and they would likely get caught eventually.

 

[michaelz08]

My 2009 Zanussi (Electrolux) has an operation hour counter, it's not in the manual, but is detailed in the 2007 service manual for the control board, which is also used in AEG machines etc. It maxes out at 6550 hours, and stops counting. Current AEG/electrolux models have their instructions to display the usage counter in the manual.

I'm well aware of the practices of having unmarked/lasered off chips and chips with custom identification codes, which is primarily done to make reverse engineering difficult, but also inhibits repair. It has been claimed that some manufactures have more recently done it to conceal their use of cheap cloned chips sourced from china, produced using stolen designs.

I remember hearing about a scam on the news years ago, carried out I think by a few photocopier repair companies; When their repairmen were called out to fix a fault, they would wire in a simple circuit board with a counter chip on it to trigger an error after a set period of time, so they'd get regular repeat business. If I recall correctly, they got caught and prosecuted, because the boss of one of the companies they ripped off got suspicious and found the hidden board and worked out what it did.

If any manufacturers were to engage in a practice of using "self-destructing" chips, their poor reliability would damage their brand and they would likely get caught eventually.

Let's also not overlook the programmed-in cycle limit on the W211 Mercedes E-Class electronic brake-by-wire system: Sensotronic Brake Control

IIRC: Those brake servo was programmed in to throw failure codes at a certain cycle (for lack of a better term) count with the belief that it would be so far down the line, that it would appropriately correlate to the wear on the unit.

Except that it didn't, and it only took some years before owners were getting these "failure" messages on not-that-old vehicles.

The result was a class action lawsuit and the warranty on the braking systems for these cars extended to a whopping 25 years- indeed, many of these vehicles are still under warranty.

This was undeniably a massive f-up by Benz and likely cost them millions upon millions between warranty work, re-engineering the part to behave properly, and the legal costs. And this wasn't even a malicious attempt to plan obsolescence!

There's other high profile cases that could be discussed, surely. Point being that it never pans out well for the company who engages in it.

You don't realize you are describing yourself., again.......

Seriously, the irony of his post is so tangible it seems as though I can reach out and feel it.

 

[DADoES]

I checked my 22yrs-2mos-old DD's cycle count. Upper = 1,322. Lower = 759. Average 7.8 loads per month. I primarily used the upper for some years, on premise of reducing wear to the lower. I have been alternating between them for the past few years.

Signed: Goofy Glenn

 

[johnb300m]

The reason identifying marks are removed from IC chips (which has been happening since the 80's) is so that people/manufacturers can't reverse engineer the product, or do home repairs. It's also done in high end audio, so the end user doesn't realize his "audiophile" equipment uses common off the shelf chips found in mainstream brands, and is nothing special.

I'd love a link to these secret tech sites, even if we can't access them. Or is the whole site invisible?

Agreed. I was going to say this.
I did an IOT project with fire safety some years ago.
Texas Instruments had to modify and make a custom chip to have it work.
We would have our factory sand off the TI part. I bet to make sure Google couldn’t reverse engineer or contact TI about the chip they made us.