rolls_rapide
Well-known member
Duomatic Twintub
Courtesy the Corby News
Courtesy the Corby News
1961 Duo-Matic Twin Tub
- Thread starter triumphdolomite
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rolls_rapide
Well-known member
Rolls 'Super 66'
Courtesy of Alamy.
Courtesy of Alamy.
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
Regarding Reply #4
It is said in Peter Armstrong's publication that the way that Bloom (of Rolls), and Elvins (formerly of Rolls, latterly of Duomatic), and the Dutch Schrouten brothers went about things, it was like watching pantomime villains in action - the way they tripped over themselves.
So much spivvery and skulduggery going on between this lot, it's no wonder it was called the washing machine wars!
It is said in Peter Armstrong's publication that the way that Bloom (of Rolls), and Elvins (formerly of Rolls, latterly of Duomatic), and the Dutch Schrouten brothers went about things, it was like watching pantomime villains in action - the way they tripped over themselves.
So much spivvery and skulduggery going on between this lot, it's no wonder it was called the washing machine wars!
At this moment I have little to contribute to this topic. In another thread I mentioned that it is possible that Rolls machines were made by the "Domestic Wasmachinefabriek" in Amerongen. There is hardly any information about that factory. However I found someone on Facebook who was once an employee at Domestic. He isn't very active on Facebook so I can only hope that he reads my message and shed some light on it.
As for the Automaster, I have no idea who made it. I will have a look through my old advertisements. Perhaps something similar was made in the NL.
BTW, in the eighties Castor was a cheap line of Zanussi products. I used one at a camping site near Venice.
As for the Automaster, I have no idea who made it. I will have a look through my old advertisements. Perhaps something similar was made in the NL.
BTW, in the eighties Castor was a cheap line of Zanussi products. I used one at a camping site near Venice.
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
Automatics
Indeed so. I remember my mum was liberated in 1980! It was fabulous. My gran was liberated in 1982.
Indeed so. I remember my mum was liberated in 1980! It was fabulous. My gran was liberated in 1982.
Dutch Schrouten brothers
Or was the name Schouten?
Or was the name Schouten?
Never mind, I found the article. Schrouten indeed. Never heard of the name before.
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
For clarification purposes...
The story so far...
Having basically imported virtually complete Schroutens' machines, with a tax-dodge by installing Hoover motors,
Peter Armstrong's book says:
"The intention now was for Rolls to assemble the machines, mainly from parts supplied by Schroutens, but using some made by themselves 'at a considerable saving'."
and:
"Bloom's account makes it quite clear that the parts to be manufactured by Rolls would be direct copies of those in the Schrouten machines."
thus:
"Schroutens' reaction was a clandestine approach to Elvins (Roll's sales director), inviting him to take charge of an operation to sell their machines direct to the public in the UK, under the name Duomatic. This would be in direct competition with Rolls Razor."
So, Duomatic Organisation was not connected to Rolls Electromatic, other than sharing the general design and some parts. They were in fact bitter rivals, Schroutens and Duomatic Organisation on one side, and Rolls Electromatic on the other.
The story so far...
Having basically imported virtually complete Schroutens' machines, with a tax-dodge by installing Hoover motors,
Peter Armstrong's book says:
"The intention now was for Rolls to assemble the machines, mainly from parts supplied by Schroutens, but using some made by themselves 'at a considerable saving'."
and:
"Bloom's account makes it quite clear that the parts to be manufactured by Rolls would be direct copies of those in the Schrouten machines."
thus:
"Schroutens' reaction was a clandestine approach to Elvins (Roll's sales director), inviting him to take charge of an operation to sell their machines direct to the public in the UK, under the name Duomatic. This would be in direct competition with Rolls Razor."
So, Duomatic Organisation was not connected to Rolls Electromatic, other than sharing the general design and some parts. They were in fact bitter rivals, Schroutens and Duomatic Organisation on one side, and Rolls Electromatic on the other.
Even more clarification
I doubt very much that Hoover would have supplied motors to a very obvious competitor however their motors where supplied by Bylock - known mainly for making vacuum cleaners - a bit of UK terminology (often Hoover - Vacuum Cleaner) may have muddied the waters.
In fact Rolls took over Bylock in 1963 so of course it crashed when Rolls went down.
Al
I doubt very much that Hoover would have supplied motors to a very obvious competitor however their motors where supplied by Bylock - known mainly for making vacuum cleaners - a bit of UK terminology (often Hoover - Vacuum Cleaner) may have muddied the waters.
In fact Rolls took over Bylock in 1963 so of course it crashed when Rolls went down.
Al
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
Re: the Hoover motors
I thought that too, that Hoover were unlikely to do that. However, Hoover have supplied motors to other manufacturers - I once came across a factory with an industrial fan heater (steam pipe radiator type suspended from the ceiling). The fan blades were operated by a Hoover induction motor.
Anyway, the book says:
"The easiest way to qualify (for the Purchase Tax dodge), he decided, was to buy motors from Hoover and install them in otherwise complete machines. In this oblique manner, Bloom became a manufacturer."
I thought that too, that Hoover were unlikely to do that. However, Hoover have supplied motors to other manufacturers - I once came across a factory with an industrial fan heater (steam pipe radiator type suspended from the ceiling). The fan blades were operated by a Hoover induction motor.
Anyway, the book says:
"The easiest way to qualify (for the Purchase Tax dodge), he decided, was to buy motors from Hoover and install them in otherwise complete machines. In this oblique manner, Bloom became a manufacturer."
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
Hoover might have been willing to sell to an unknown company in 1960, but once they knew what he was up to, they might then reconsider their sales of parts.
I have searched for Schrouten etc. especially in Dutch ofcourse. Nothing!
I have found only one ad for a Dutch made toploader, a Ruton. Ruton was later purchased by Philips. I'll post the picture here for the fun of it and also so we can establish there aren't any similarity between the Ruton and the Duomatic Automaster.
I have found only one ad for a Dutch made toploader, a Ruton. Ruton was later purchased by Philips. I'll post the picture here for the fun of it and also so we can establish there aren't any similarity between the Ruton and the Duomatic Automaster.
Hoover motors
Indeed Hoover did supply motors, occasionally you see adverts on ebay for them, but I doubt they would have supplied these - the ads generally show larger, industral style motors. When I am back home I will check to see if there is any indication when Bylock began the supply.
Are you reading this article on line or did you buy the book?
Louis, thank you for your research, interesting picture, when might this be from?
Now something occurs to me. It looks like the Automaster is an H Axis machine but the impression I have is that the tub is aligned from side to side rather than front to back. The first Philips top loaders that I know of also had the tub in this alignment (made in Halifax in what started out as the Ada factory) before changing to the more familiar front to back format. I wonder if Philips picked up some other company along the way? I have articles with Philips toploaders at least to 1968, there was a new model in 1969.
Just out of interest Louis have you any reference to Colston dishwashers or indeed any Colston appliances being sold in Holland?
Al
Indeed Hoover did supply motors, occasionally you see adverts on ebay for them, but I doubt they would have supplied these - the ads generally show larger, industral style motors. When I am back home I will check to see if there is any indication when Bylock began the supply.
Are you reading this article on line or did you buy the book?
Louis, thank you for your research, interesting picture, when might this be from?
Now something occurs to me. It looks like the Automaster is an H Axis machine but the impression I have is that the tub is aligned from side to side rather than front to back. The first Philips top loaders that I know of also had the tub in this alignment (made in Halifax in what started out as the Ada factory) before changing to the more familiar front to back format. I wonder if Philips picked up some other company along the way? I have articles with Philips toploaders at least to 1968, there was a new model in 1969.
Just out of interest Louis have you any reference to Colston dishwashers or indeed any Colston appliances being sold in Holland?
Al
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
Thanks Louis.
I got the impression that the top-loading Duomatic 'Automaster' was more of a tub-type machine - the way the woman in the Duomatic advert is attending to the machine. She doesn't look as though she is fighting sprung drum hatches.
I got the impression that the top-loading Duomatic 'Automaster' was more of a tub-type machine - the way the woman in the Duomatic advert is attending to the machine. She doesn't look as though she is fighting sprung drum hatches.
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
Reading it online...
And Google Books' 'preview only' is a right royal pain! (pages edited out of my particular view).
And Google Books' 'preview only' is a right royal pain! (pages edited out of my particular view).
I agree, Google Books is a PITA!
The ad of the Ruton toploader is from December 24 1965.
Philips had quite a few series of toploaders. I think some models might have been manufactured at the same time. There was the CC1000 60cm wide line, the 45cm Slimstar (also named CC1000 in the NL), the 40cm Slimstar models (several generations) and the earlier 40cm (or a bit less?) toploaders with the glass lids. Etc. etc.
I think I have seen a few Colston ads, but I can't find them at the moment. I have quite a few ads that I have to sort out, the files only have a number now. When I have done that, the plan is to share them here.
Yes, the Duomatic Automaster could be a V-axis machine. But we don't know for sure, the drum could be low in the cabinet so that you can't see the hatches.
The ad of the Ruton toploader is from December 24 1965.
Philips had quite a few series of toploaders. I think some models might have been manufactured at the same time. There was the CC1000 60cm wide line, the 45cm Slimstar (also named CC1000 in the NL), the 40cm Slimstar models (several generations) and the earlier 40cm (or a bit less?) toploaders with the glass lids. Etc. etc.
I think I have seen a few Colston ads, but I can't find them at the moment. I have quite a few ads that I have to sort out, the files only have a number now. When I have done that, the plan is to share them here.
Yes, the Duomatic Automaster could be a V-axis machine. But we don't know for sure, the drum could be low in the cabinet so that you can't see the hatches.
keymatic3203
Well-known member
Great thread
always interesting to find out something new about topics we've speculated over when discussing the history of appliance and manufacturers.
With regard to the automaster, I would have thought a no suspension, slow speed spin drum type would be the cheapest to build, thinking along the lines of the original indesit, only a thought mind.
Laundress, don't weep for all, I know that one programme on advertising said that heavy promotion kept women using twin tubs long after they were obsolete in other countries, but I can think of at least 10 first hand examples where the housewife had the choice of machines and still chose a twin tub. One I recall was back in the eighties, the husband bought a tol hoover automatic, was installed in the morning and by the afternoon it was sent back and exchanged for a twin tub, with washing for a large family, many women just preferred to put the effort in for an hour or so and clear the washing basket. I know you've said the similar, when you got your lovely Maytag wringer. On the other hand my grandmother held out in the 50's against both a wringer washer and a twin tub, rather waiting for something better, so in 1959 when the english electric liberator, ( westinghouse space mate) came out, she chose that, and several of her friend bought the same machine. But in my generation growing up in the 70's my mum and all my friends had automatics, the twin tubs were found with the previous generation. And many friends here in the uk can tell similar accounts.
I can't say for all english electric twin tubs, but I know from literature Mike has that the `twin star' at least, had a different wash tub and impellor than the Rolls/duomatic etc. It was a squared off tub with an angled base with an impellor more like a smaller diameter hoover pulsator, it was belt driven from a brush motor, similar to the one used for the spin dryers, so that accounts for the different wash ratings and the description of a `very vigorous wash action'.
Rolls. Al and Louis Keep the information coming, great to read.
Mathew
always interesting to find out something new about topics we've speculated over when discussing the history of appliance and manufacturers.
With regard to the automaster, I would have thought a no suspension, slow speed spin drum type would be the cheapest to build, thinking along the lines of the original indesit, only a thought mind.
Laundress, don't weep for all, I know that one programme on advertising said that heavy promotion kept women using twin tubs long after they were obsolete in other countries, but I can think of at least 10 first hand examples where the housewife had the choice of machines and still chose a twin tub. One I recall was back in the eighties, the husband bought a tol hoover automatic, was installed in the morning and by the afternoon it was sent back and exchanged for a twin tub, with washing for a large family, many women just preferred to put the effort in for an hour or so and clear the washing basket. I know you've said the similar, when you got your lovely Maytag wringer. On the other hand my grandmother held out in the 50's against both a wringer washer and a twin tub, rather waiting for something better, so in 1959 when the english electric liberator, ( westinghouse space mate) came out, she chose that, and several of her friend bought the same machine. But in my generation growing up in the 70's my mum and all my friends had automatics, the twin tubs were found with the previous generation. And many friends here in the uk can tell similar accounts.
I can't say for all english electric twin tubs, but I know from literature Mike has that the `twin star' at least, had a different wash tub and impellor than the Rolls/duomatic etc. It was a squared off tub with an angled base with an impellor more like a smaller diameter hoover pulsator, it was belt driven from a brush motor, similar to the one used for the spin dryers, so that accounts for the different wash ratings and the description of a `very vigorous wash action'.
Rolls. Al and Louis Keep the information coming, great to read.
Mathew
Colston dishwashers
Just a little sidestep. I found a few Colston dishwashers advertised.
Just a little sidestep. I found a few Colston dishwashers advertised.
triumphdolomite
Well-known member
I'm enjoying all this extra fascinating information coming out about the Duomatic, I'll see if I can have a look at the motors tomorrow to see if there is any identification on them to see if that helps.
Ian
Ian
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
Al mentioned 'Ada'...
...in Reply #27.
It appears to be an agitator washer.
Courtesy of Grace's Guide.
...in Reply #27.
It appears to be an agitator washer.
Courtesy of Grace's Guide.
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
Ada Dishwasher
Purely for reference purposes.
Courtesy of Grace's Guide.
Purely for reference purposes.
Courtesy of Grace's Guide.
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
As per the book...
It appears that Bloom first sourced his machines from the Dutch Klean Company; Bloom was operating as the Continental Washing Machine Company, at that time.
When Klean refused to make a cheaper machine for him, he went to Schroutens' who did.
Then a little later all the Rolls Electromatic manufacturing problems, and the Schroutens' Duomatic underhand double-dealing shenanigans kicked off.
(There's more intrigue in this story, than an episode of 'Versailles'!)
It appears that Bloom first sourced his machines from the Dutch Klean Company; Bloom was operating as the Continental Washing Machine Company, at that time.
When Klean refused to make a cheaper machine for him, he went to Schroutens' who did.
Then a little later all the Rolls Electromatic manufacturing problems, and the Schroutens' Duomatic underhand double-dealing shenanigans kicked off.
(There's more intrigue in this story, than an episode of 'Versailles'!)
triumphdolomite
Well-known member
Underneath
I've taken a few pics underneath this morning. There appears to be some 'interesting' wiring going on with the main connections being inside a sort of plastic cup as in the last picture.
The spin motor has very little identification on it, certainly no makers name. The wash motor however has a plate on saying it was made by Newman Industries of Yate, I had a quick google and it seems they were close by the Parnall works. Odd if Newmans were supplying washer motors at this time as my Parnall Spinwasher has a Ranco motor from Glasgow.
Sadly it doesn't seem to clear up much in the way of the Duomatic questions other than I would expect it to have been made in the UK as I can't imagine shipping Dutch built machines in without motors.
Ian
I've taken a few pics underneath this morning. There appears to be some 'interesting' wiring going on with the main connections being inside a sort of plastic cup as in the last picture.
The spin motor has very little identification on it, certainly no makers name. The wash motor however has a plate on saying it was made by Newman Industries of Yate, I had a quick google and it seems they were close by the Parnall works. Odd if Newmans were supplying washer motors at this time as my Parnall Spinwasher has a Ranco motor from Glasgow.
Sadly it doesn't seem to clear up much in the way of the Duomatic questions other than I would expect it to have been made in the UK as I can't imagine shipping Dutch built machines in without motors.
Ian
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
shipping Dutch built machines without motors
I can see why they might do exactly that.
Bloom himself cottoned on to the fact that that his Rolls company could avoid Purchase Tax by shipping in partly completed machines - and install Hoover's motors.
This way the tax payments could be legally delayed for a few months, rather than having to be paid immediately as with an imported fully operational machine.
I myself wondered if the top-loading Duomatic 'Automaster' was based on a Parnall Spinwasher...?
I can see why they might do exactly that.
Bloom himself cottoned on to the fact that that his Rolls company could avoid Purchase Tax by shipping in partly completed machines - and install Hoover's motors.
This way the tax payments could be legally delayed for a few months, rather than having to be paid immediately as with an imported fully operational machine.
I myself wondered if the top-loading Duomatic 'Automaster' was based on a Parnall Spinwasher...?
keymatic3203
Well-known member
Hi Rolls, just for interest
As you say the Ada was a agitator washer, but it doesn't have a gearbox like the Servis etc, it's a simple mechanism like the modern velo/norfrost twin tub, also found on their wringer washers, it's like a polyester/canvas strap on a sort of bow that rolls it back and forth, producing that short fast stroke.
I've been told this was a common repair on these machines back in the day.
Ian, do I make out that the spin motor on the duomatic reads 1400 rpm, so quite a low spin speed for a twin tub, but whilst always remembering, it was affordable and better than a wringer.
One question I've been meaning to look up, how does the price of one of these cheaper twin tubs compare to that of buying a wash boiler and a separate spin dryer. I just ask, as we've often questioned the wash performance, but if they are in the same price range, then would a heated rolls or duomatic, be a better deal than a more premium brand boiler and spin dryer, say burco and creda? as if so you would get a wash boiler, washing machine and pumped spindryer for a similar cost. As I say I should look it up.
Mathew
As you say the Ada was a agitator washer, but it doesn't have a gearbox like the Servis etc, it's a simple mechanism like the modern velo/norfrost twin tub, also found on their wringer washers, it's like a polyester/canvas strap on a sort of bow that rolls it back and forth, producing that short fast stroke.
I've been told this was a common repair on these machines back in the day.
Ian, do I make out that the spin motor on the duomatic reads 1400 rpm, so quite a low spin speed for a twin tub, but whilst always remembering, it was affordable and better than a wringer.
One question I've been meaning to look up, how does the price of one of these cheaper twin tubs compare to that of buying a wash boiler and a separate spin dryer. I just ask, as we've often questioned the wash performance, but if they are in the same price range, then would a heated rolls or duomatic, be a better deal than a more premium brand boiler and spin dryer, say burco and creda? as if so you would get a wash boiler, washing machine and pumped spindryer for a similar cost. As I say I should look it up.
Mathew
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
1964 Novum Twintub
Looks like a Duomatic clone.
Courtesy of esbarchives.
Looks like a Duomatic clone.
Courtesy of esbarchives.
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
Novum
Sales blurb
Sales blurb
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
A legacy of the Duomatic Company...
It appears that there were some shenanigans at Duomatic Ltd too.
The particular legal framework is commonly known as The Duomatic Principle - but it actually extends further back in time, to earlier cases.
Wikipaedia gives some info.
More at Swarb:
http://swarb.co.uk/in-re-duomatic-ltd-chd-1969/
If you go to the swarb link, it mentions some key players - including the Mr Elvins formerly of Rolls Electromatic!
http://https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duomatic_principle
It appears that there were some shenanigans at Duomatic Ltd too.
The particular legal framework is commonly known as The Duomatic Principle - but it actually extends further back in time, to earlier cases.
Wikipaedia gives some info.
More at Swarb:
http://swarb.co.uk/in-re-duomatic-ltd-chd-1969/
If you go to the swarb link, it mentions some key players - including the Mr Elvins formerly of Rolls Electromatic!
http://https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duomatic_principle
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
Another 1960's Duomatic advert.
Courtesy of Alamy.
Courtesy of Alamy.
triumphdolomite
Well-known member
Mathew
Yes it does say 1400rpm so not that quick, but I guess it will pump out quite quickly running the pump at that speed. The wash motor picture didn't come out too clearly but I think that looks like it says 425rpm, I did think it was 1425rpm at first but after a thought sanity prevailed! LOL.
Ian
Yes it does say 1400rpm so not that quick, but I guess it will pump out quite quickly running the pump at that speed. The wash motor picture didn't come out too clearly but I think that looks like it says 425rpm, I did think it was 1425rpm at first but after a thought sanity prevailed! LOL.
Ian
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