1964 Inglis portable dishwasher tripping a GFCI outlet.

[philr]

I used my 1964 BOL Inglis dishwasher tonight and it tripped the protection on the GFCI outlet I plugged it in after the last rinse. It's a model with a GE pump and a bowtie impeller.

There was no visible water leaks or anything looking wrong. I have disconnected the hot wire to the heating element and the breaker didn't trip. As soon as I reconnect it, it trips the breaker.

I have tested the heater circuit with an cheap ohmmeter to see if there's electrical leakage and if there's one, it's certainly minor (I don't know how to tell if a leak is OK or not but to read a value, I had the ohmmeter at 2000K and it read a similar values (not steady reading at all!) if I touched both probes with my hands or the wire from the element and a metal part of the cabinet... It's been a while since I used it but it's the first time it has that issue.

Connected in another outlet with an extension cord, it works just fine... Should I bother about anything?

I know I should at least clean it underneath... Maybe next time!

 

[retro-man]

GFI's can be very finicky. I have one in the bathroom that trips occasionally just using a water pick. Where my pump up system is in the basement, it used to be plugged into one. It kept tripping the breaker on it. Had it checked out by an electrician because I could find no leaking voltage. He told me that heavy use items such has pumps and heaters could cause it to trip just because of the amount of amps being drawn through it. Had to change the outlet out and not a problem since. He also said never plug a fridge or freezer into one. So it is possible that the dishwasher when going into the dry cycle is really sucking the power and tripping the breaker. Maybe this helps, but lets let other chime in on their experiences with these types of outlets.
Jon

 

[turquoisedude]

This is too odd... for about 2 months now, the 56 GE pull-out in Ogden has been intermittently tripping the GFI outlet that I installed to 'protect' it.  In my case, it pops in the main wash, almost always just when the detergent dispenser cup gets tripped.  But like with Phil's Inglis, if I run an extension from one of the other kitchen outlets it runs fine...  

 

Think I'm going to swap out the GFI outlet for a regular one....

 

Phil - that's pretty neat that the machine is using the same timer as the Whirlpool top-loaders of this era! That's the same type as I have in my '61.  And if it helps, I do have the wiring diagram for the '61 too...

 

[akronman]

GFCI

I have GFCI's throughout the basement, and usually 5 washers plugged in and 6 dryers. There are 2 late 70's GE Filter Flo's that both trip the GFCI at the exact same spot on the timer, about 1/4 of the time. After testing, checking, OHMs, etc, I undid the GFCI and wired in normal outlets for only the Ge's, problem solved. Keep in mind that a 1964 machine was built aabout 10 years before gfci's came on the market for home use.

 

[Chetlaham]

I would change the GFCI to a new one. Some older ones don't like motors. If it still trips something is leaking to the chassis.

 

[Unimatic1140]

Yes I agree. The GFI's in our kitchen get occasionally tripped by some of our vintage small appliances, but there is no specific pattern. I purposely didn't install GFI's in the basement on the washer lines.

As long as the washer is properly grounded and you unplug it before working on it, you should be fine. These machines weren't designed for GFI outlets and somehow the people of the 1950's and 1960's survived.

 

[Chetlaham]

@retro-man

Sorry to say your electrician is wrong. Power draw does not trip a GFCI. I could short circuit a GFCI line to neutral and it will not trip. Same for a 30amp overload on a 20amp GFCI... no trip. And it is impossible to trip any GFCI with a heater unless its leaking to its sheath. Older GFCIs did nuisance trip from inductive inrush and transients from motors and solenoids being cycled, but that has been solved with GFCIs manufactured in the last 15 years.

If a newer version GFCI is tripping then it is an hot or neutral to ground fault, both defects within the appliance. Taking out an GFCI and replacing it with a regular one is masking a failure within the appliance.

I will admit that some older fridges do trip GFCIs from poor design such as frost reaching over into the defrost heater bushings.

But any appliance made within the last 20 years that is tripping a GFCI by all means is at fault not from poor design (like some older Fridges) but has an actual failing component.

As for older appliances like dishwashers, look for things like lime or scale build up around terminal blocks or moisture condensing on them. I know a very common theme on older dishwashers is lime build up around the detergent cup terminals which cases tripping.

A mega ohm meter is the best investment. It works great on wiring and motors... anything without electronics. A low reading means something is leaking to ground.

 

[philr]

Then it's probably the heater that leaks. As I said, if I disconnect the hot wire to the heater from the timer, the GFCI doesn't trip but when I reconnect it, it trips immediately!

The outleti no more than 7 years old and it's the first time it trips with this dishwasher.

I know the current leak isn't as bad as it was on my 1964 Frigidaire fridge! The chassis was hot 24 hours a day because of a defrost heater that had a short to the ground. After I took a shock while touching simultaneously the fridge's handle and chrome trim on my range next to it, I got a good shock! I reversed the plug in the wall outlet (still no safety ground on these fridges!) and it was fine for the few days before I had the time to replace it!

I guess they designed the plug (which isn't polarized and has no ground) so the heater element isn't energized 24 hours a day if the wire is connected on outlet with the neutral on the right (when the wire gets down at 90 degrees, the neutral side terminal is on the right). My outlet is installed with the neutral on the left and the ground below...

 

[Chetlaham]

Definitely a leaking heater. I guess its time to find a replacement, I hope you can find one.

I agree, back then Appliances were different. No safety ground not even polarization. And to be honest, even when working correctly, they did seem to leak a lot more.

Of note, where you have an appliance with no equipment ground prong a GFCI is a really good idea. If the fault current going through you exceeded 5 milliamps it will trip. In fact the NEC allows for ungrounded outlets to be replaced with 3 wire grounding outlets provided they be GFCI protected.

 

[combo52]

Tripping GFIs On Vintage Appliances

As Robert said, You Do Not Need GFIs on properly grounded appliances ,this includes almost all appliances with 3 prong cords or appliances with a permanently connected separate ground wire attached to a good ground.

Phil, it is normal for sealed Calrod style heaters to leak voltage to ground [ this is one reason they don't put GFIs on electric ranges ] and also why it is so important that surface elements on ERs be grounded so users do not get a slight shock when picking up hot pans.

Even if you find a new heater for this old DW it will very likely leak voltage.

John L.

 

[philr]

Thanks John! I think I'll just replace the outlet or add another one without the GFI protection next to it!

 

[tomturbomatic]

Nice DW. Could you share an inside shot?

I had a GFI-protected circuit outside for the three gas dryers. Often, if I had all three operating, the GFI would trip. They have a problem with larger current draws, especially with motors that regular circuit breakers do not. Replacing the GFI breaker with a regular one eliminated the problem.

Another thing you might want to check is the amperage rating on the breaker. The GFI outlets on the sink wall of my kitchen are all GFI protected, but they are all 20 amp circuits/breakers and there are two circuits in each quad outlet, but the GFI breakers are in the panel downstairs, not in the outlets themselves. On one circuit I use an 8000 BTU window ac unit and on another, a portable dishwasher. It has varied from a KDS58 to a Maytag, a KD2P and, currently, a Kenmore Ultra Wash. All, except the KD2P, have sealed rod heating elements. None of these has tripped the 20 amp GFI breakers. Maybe you need to see if the wiring to the circuit is a heavy enough gauge to safely be protected by a 20 amp 120 volt circuit breaker. GFI breakers seem to have less tolerance at the upper reaches of their rated capacity so the appliance that trips a 15 amp GFI breaker might not trip a 20 amp breaker, even while drawing less than 15 amps.

 

[philr]

A few pics... 

 

[arbilab]

I've had GFCIs trip under NO load at all. The most notorious was the one in the garage where the door opener plugged. It tripped for thunderstorms so just when you need the opener to work the GFCI was open. It would also trip from the inductive kick of a vacuum. It finally went wonky altogether. The new one had no problems.

Heater leaking to chassis is a legitimate trip. Long as your third-wire ground is good it's not a shock hazard. There is a fire hazard however. If it gets slightly more conductive to ground but still below where the breaker trips from overcurrent it can produce a lot of heat in a small space. You don't want that.

I grew up in the age of 2-wire appliances and quickly learned not to touch any two of them at the same time.

 

[combo52]

Interesting WP Built DW Phil

WP sourced the pump and motor assembly from GE for its lower priced portable and built-in DWs in the early 60s, the better DWs had the huge black Bakelite wash-arms and a separate circulating and drain pumps and motors, but for cost reasons they put the less effective cheaper GE built combined impeller motor and drain pump in these models.

 

[philr]

There were also impeller undercounter models?! When did Whirlpool and GE stopped making them?

 

[turquoisedude]

Apart from the 1957 and 1958 D&M built, WP-badged machines, the undercounter dishwashers that Whirlpool made had the extra-large black bakelite wash arm.   All this talk about Whirlpool dishwashers has got me thinking it's time to bring the '61 back upstairs into the kitchen!!  

 

[tomturbomatic]

Brookwood Park Apartments at 130 26th Street in Atlanta had the WP drop-door under counter DWs with the GE impeller and GE's lower rack on wheels, but as I have described before, they did not have any sort of side frame so you could not put a skillet on its side in the lower rack because there was nothing to hold it upright unless you slipped it in after the lower rack was pushed back into the machine. You probably could not even expect a saucepan to remain in the proper position if it was loaded into one of the corner spaces. The rack was designed for GE machines with a roll out tub that loaded from the top like their portable.

 

[travis]

GFCI's can go bad. I had a GFCI breaker on my garage circuit. One day it was tripped. The only things connected were a 1935 belt drive fridge and the garage door opener.

I immediately thought the fridge was misbehaving and unplugged it. The breaker would trip with just the opener. I threw out the GFCI breaker and went to a standard breaker. All is well. The garage has a roof, so it's not really a wet area. I was told by a plumber to not put a washer, dishwasher or garbage disposer on a GFCI circuit. The reason being they don't play nice.