1967 WCIL Problem

[davy1063]

Here's what happens.
I start the washer and it makes a humming sound, does not agitate. Eventually it will start agitating. I checked to see if the agitate roller was binding and checked operation of agitate arm and shaft and they are moving freely with no problems. It seems as if it's the motor (regretfully). It spins with no issues but it just seems to have an issue agitating. Once it gets started it's fine. It runs so quietly!

So, my questions are:

1) is it the motor or a component thereof? Can I fix it?
2) how do I get the motor out?
3) if it is the motor, then what? Does someone have a donor motor?

This thing still has loads of life to it, and I don't want to get rid of it. It's a beautiful turquoise piece of art gratiously swapped by TrainGuy for my '59 WCI.

 

[filterflo]

Quick diagnosis:

1. Motor start capcitor is weak/bad.

2. Start winding in the motor is weak.

3. Mechanism is binding somehow, somewhere.

Motor removal from a Rollermatic requires a complete ( and I do mean complete) tear down. Usually its better to find a good usable mechanism for a swap.

The motors in Rollermatics seldom go bad as they were ruggedly built by Delco for GM. Most of the time a bad motor symptom is just a bad start capacitor........

 

[davy1063]

Where is the motor start capacitor found?

 

[qsd-dan]

It's located behind the rear lower panel on my 63.

 

[davy1063]

Mechanism Removal

I have the Service Master for the Rollermatic, however it flipflops between the 1-18 and the Rollermatic mechanism. Can someone give me guidance on the removal of the mechanism? Does it come out from the top or bottom? I know i have to remove the agitator, tub, etc...but I don't have the bellows pliers or special wrench to undo the nut. Any alternatives?

Dave

 

[qsd-dan]

Wish I could answer your questions, but I can't. It seems fairly difficult to get advice for Frigidaire washer repairs here sometimes. They're complicated animals though.

I'm curious too if there is an alternative to the bellow pliers. I heard a hint of noise from the spin bearing(s) on the last load I washed in the 63, so I see a tear down in the near future.

 

[Unimatic1140]

I'm curious too if there is an alternative to the bellow pliers.

Yes I used to use C-Clamps before I had the bellows pliers.

Can't speak much to Rollermatics because I have never really worked on one, as I've never had one for very long in my collection. I can tell you that to remove any Frigidaire Mechanism, the agitator and tub do need to be removed.

 

[qsd-dan]

Thanks Robert!!

 

[davy1063]

thanks Robert and Dan,

Does the mechanism then lift out from the top of the machine or do i pull it out from the bottom?

Dave

 

[jetcone]

Mechanism goes out the bottom

once the tub is out you can use a small screwdriver to lift the one folded tang which is lapped up against the large mechanism support nut located ontop and against the rubber support cone. Use a large pipe wrench to loosen and remove the mechanism support nut, then with all the wires and hoses and springs (mark their locations) disconnected and the cross brace removed the whole mechanism will drop out the bottom.

Sounds to me like you have a leaking bellows and water in the shaft bearings or it could be the main bearings pressed into the mechanism.

jet

 

[davy1063]

okay, so I got started

however I'm having a hell of a time with the screws at the bottom of the inner tub. I actually broke two off. I tried heating it with a MAP torch with no luck.

HELP!!!!!!!

 

[davy1063]

Here's Where I'm At

Notice the screws

View attachment 4-1-2008-11-07-4--davy1063.jpg

 

[Unimatic1140]

Those screws do not need to come out Davy. After you remove both bellows there is a 1.5" tub mounting nut around the spin shft, after that is removed, then the tub will pull out.

Those screws at the bottom of the tub are mounting the tub to the tub hub, both tub and hub are pulled out together. There is very little reason to ever remove those big stainless steel screws at the bottom of the spin tub.

 

[davy1063]

Uni....I owe you a beer!!!!

Thanks buddy. Actually I'm taking pictures of this whole process which I will post. I got the bellows off using the C-clamp trick (which wasn't too difficult)and both bellows are supple and intact (whew). Is there anything else I need to know? The RepairMaster isn't really much of a roadmap.

 

[davy1063]

Easier Said than Done

that nut is rusted fast. I've tried heating it and using a sledge hammer and pipe wrench. It won't budge. Is there a trick? I'm assuming lefty loosy, correct?

 

[saltysam]

lefty loosy

Hey Dave, yes lefty loosey on the tub nut.....you did exactly the same thing i did when i took my machine apart. i thought the stainless steel screws had to come out for the tub to come out.....little did i know that the big nut in the center was the only thing that had to be loosened.......a couple of things when you get the agitator and tub out and before you lay the machine down to remove the mechanism. Be sure to support the mechanism somehow before you lay it down. It will keep the mechanism support from getting twisted and possible damaging it. The mechanism support is impossible to find (if that is even possible) I found a trick to get the mechanism out without having to remove the mechanism support...i will send you an email to describe the procedure....Mark

 

[filterflo]

VERY IMPORTANT FOR TUB REMOVAL!!!!!

This is VERY important when you pull the tub out: There is a small keyway (1/32 in thick by 1.5 in long piece of metal) that fits in the tub shaft and drive block. DO NOT LOSE THIS PIECE. It MUST be returned to the slot when reinstalling the tub. The keyways sometimes fall out when pulling the tub and if you dont know what they are or what to look for get lost in the residue of the outer tub. Without the keyway reinstalled, the tub will not spin. I dont think the manual shows any of this......All Rollermatics have that keyway......so be alert when removal of the tub begins.....

 

[goatfarmer]

Also remember, the cross brace at the bottom is SPRING LOADED! Just another thing to be aware of.

kennyGF

 

[davy1063]

Well, I have determined....

that the motor itself is bad. Since I couldn't outwit the tub nut, i decided to tackle it via the south. Took off the pump, removed the rollers and allowed the motor to spin freely. I powered it up and the motor sat idle, unless i spun it by hand, then it fired up. Funny thing though, depending on which way i spun it, that's the direction it ran.
So.....now what the "F" do I do?

Davy

 

[panthera]

Not necessarily the worst case

Davy, you may not be SOL on this.
The reason the motor works fine once it is spinning is because it is really two motors in one - a motor to start things turning and one to keep them going once they start.
The starting system on your motor has failed. It may be that a winding has failed and that means the motor will have to be "rewound" by a shop (shouldn't be a big problem).
But there are a couple of things you can check before you assume the worst.
First, the starting sequence involves several components, all subject to enormous stress and strain. Depending on the motor and where in the US it was meant to work you will have at least one capacitor. If it goes, or a wire breaks it could cause this problem - bad capacitors have been known to take other components with them, so you should really replace it/them after all these years in any case). Now before everybody jumps on the "two capacitor? not done" bandwagen, we had a few rollermatics which were set up with two in our dorms. Low voltage and lots of starting loads at once. So don't assume, check. Please remember, a capacitor still has enough charge to kill you or ruin components even after the plug is pulled. Discharge it before you handle it.
Second possibility. The motor may have a centrifugal start switch that has failed. A loose connection or broken part or contacts not touching...many things can go wrong there and with a simple VOM, you can track them down.
Third possibility. Over time, corrosion and wire breaks can leave one wire dead when the one just next to it is still resistance free and working perfectly. Check all the wires in the harness and the connector blocks. Did someone decide to splice something in at some point? Did a wire get pinched?
The schematic diagram may have the details on the two systems in the motor, if it is a standard (and I do belive GM was using standard motors by that point) then there will be a catalog with the data or someone here will know) so you can find out if it is a shorted/dead start winding.
By the way, the direction the motor runs is determined by the starting system, not the field windings. That is why you can spin it in either direction and once it starts, it stays on that way.

 

[davy1063]

Panthera, yes it's the GM motor. I checked the connections on the motor and they are fine, no corrosion. No splices either. I won't be able to go any further unless I can get the tub out. I heated the nut, whacked at the wrench with a sledge hammer to no avail. Any other tricks of the trade you know of?

 

[davy1063]

Here's My Nut.....(pun intended)

See picture...

The thing won't budge

 

[panthera]

Davy,

Oh my stars - that looks like real fun. Not. I think you'd better wait for Samantha or one of the specialists to chime in. Only two suggetions from me.
One, stop whacking your nuts. You aren't gonna get them off, leastways not like that.
Two, We all know how touchy those rollers are about lube. WD-40 or silicone gets on them, you are seriously screwed. So be extra special careful.
Any shots of the motor, data sheet or schematic? Might jog a memory.

 

[davy1063]

yeah, I can take as many pics as you like. I'll do that this evening when I get home from work. I'll take one of the schematic (which is on the back of the machine) and of the motor. It looks like water got past the water bellows, doesn't it?

Dave

 

[panthera]

Thanks for the pics,

Yeah, it does, rather. What I am most curious about is any data on the motor. Any way to take a look at the starter without pulling it?

 

[Unimatic1140]

Well that nut is gonna have to come off somehow, I've never seen one so rusted before, but the Unimatics used a stainless one. There should be a lock washer and tab up against that nut, I assume you saw that and pushed the tab downward? You might have to cut that nut off, even if you did get all of the tub bolts out, you will still need to remove the hub in order to pull the mechanism out from below which means that nut has to come out.

 

[davy1063]

Lock Washer and Tab??????????

I didn't see any lock washer or tab up against that nut. Is there supposed to be? It might have become as one with the rust that I overlooked it. The only tab I saw was the one above the pulsator diaphragm. If I cut that nut off, does someone have a replacement for me?

Davy

 

[fltcoils]

motor

This is what happened to my maytag last fall. A turn of the start winding had laid across the metal frame of the motor. After years it had worn thru the 0.001" thk insulation and arced 120v to the metal frame. Vaporizing about 1/8" of the wire.

I had hoped that it was the centrifugal switch, or a capacitor instead, I've seen that too. But alas it was the winding. But...using tiny heat shrink and some spare motor magnetic wire, it was possible to splice the break and restore the motor.

so have hope
(just look for smoke, that's where the problem is.)

 

[davy1063]

yeah, I'm gonna try to get those pictures tonight. I felt around the motor and I don't feel any protrusion like a capacitor. Perfectly cylindrical. Before I can go any further, I gotta get that friggin nut off so I can get the tub out and the mechanism sitting on my workbench. So, at this moment, I'm at a standstill. Thanks to you and Unimatic for standing by me on this!! I really want to get this machine running again.

 

[rickr]

The motor start capacitor is mounted on inside of the rear removable panel. It will have three wires going to it.