1967 WCIL Problem

[davy1063]

does the one capacitor function for both spin and agitate? Remember, it goes into spin fine, agitate is the issue.

 

[jetcone]

Sorry davy I forgot that the tub nut also has a lock washer

"once the tub is out you can use a small screwdriver to lift the one folded tang which is lapped up against the large mechanism support nut located ontop and against the rubber support cone"

and I forgot to mention the tub nut also has a copper lock washer with tang folded up agianst the nut. You get that tang back down and get a pipe wrench on the nut with a hammer and it will turn

 

[panthera]

usually, yes

The cap. is usually just for starting, but there were variations depending on need.
I don't know the configuration of this motor well enough to guess, but it sounds increasingly like a problem with the starting system - centrifugal starting switch being the most likely.
Does anyone here have the GM service sheet on this motor? Would help Davy more than my general theory.

 

[davy1063]

Here are shots of the motor

picture #1

 

[davy1063]

Picture 2

Here is another angle...

 

[davy1063]

Also...

There is no locking tab on that nut.

 

[davy1063]

here's a video I just took of the mechanism running

See how wonderfully smooth and quiet it runs? Once it gets going, it's great!

 

[saltysam]

Davey try this

Hey Dave, have you tried penetrating oil on that nut? If i was in your situation i would take a wire brush and try to get as much of the rust off as possible then spray it down good with penetrating oil. Just make sure you don't get any of the oil down the agitator/spin shaft. Let the penetrating oil sit for a day or so and then try to remove the tub nut. You might have to spray it down a couple of times and let it soak in. Also i would check the oil and water bellows over very carefully. appears that both are leaking for that nut to be rusted like that. Also as far as the stainless steel screws that you broke off.....once you get the tub out you will need to get the ones that are broken off extracted out so you can put new ones in.......I have some of the stainless screws i can send to you if you want....
Mark

 

[gizmo]

Is it possible to try a replacement timer? The thing that bothers me here is that it starts perfectly in one direction but won't start in the other. ** I must point out here that I am not at all familiar with these machines, they were never sold in this country. But I am pretty good with electric motors...The motor uses the exact same windings and switches to start in either direction. It is the timer which connects the start winding one way round or the other to select the direction the motor will turn, and therefore whether the machine will agitate or spin. So, unless I am mistaken in my logic (and that may well be the case) the fault is NOT likely to be in the motor. I am pointing an accusing finger at the timer. This diagnosis is based only on the fact that in the very first post, Davy says that it spins fine but won't agitate. If the motor actually has to be "push started" in both directions, then it is probably the start capacitor or the start winding.I would NOT be even touching the motor or mechanism until I had found and checked the capacitor, it is a much easier repair. Always check the easy stuff first....Example: I have just returned from a couple of days at my elderly parents' place. Mum asked me to "replace the dryer element, as it isn't heating." I brought a new element with me, pulled the damn thing apart to the last nut and bolt as you have to with small Simpson Minimax dryers, then I noticed the element looked OK so I tested it - nothing wrong! I had the difficult task of reassembling the dryer, (the belt tensioner is crude and tends to fly apart if the belt is even fractionally out of alignment), when putting on the back panel with fan assembly, a pencil fell out of the air outlet.  The real fault was that the pencil had been left on top of the dryer, fallen into the exhaust air duct which points up (it is not vented outside), and jammed the fan. Extract pencil, fan turns, draws hot air through dryer. No more problem.  I have re-fitted the vent outlet to blow sideways instead of up, to stop any more objects falling in...Chris.

 

[Unimatic1140]

Wait a Minute!

You know I totally agree with Chris' post above. I just went back to your first post and reread it, it gives a very important clue which I didn't notice before:

"It seems as if it's the motor (regretfully). It spins with no issues but it just seems to have an issue agitating. "

***bangs head on wall for skimming thread for pictures and not reading properly***

As Chris stated, if a motor operates in one direction it can operate in the other direction. If the mechanism in not binding or hard to turn then starting the motor in agitation is much easier than starting the motor in spin. I've seen capacitor issues where the motor had trouble starting in spin and agitation was fine, but not the reverse (unless there are two separate starting capacitors like in the Frigidiare Super-Duty coin-ops). I'm pretty sure the problem most likely is in the timer now. The timer needs to reverse the neutral and hot leads to the motor in order to revere the direction, if one of the contacts on the spin side is dirty or burned it could cause this problem.

It might be time for a timer-ectamy?

 

[rickr]

Hi Robert, I know on my 66 Rapid Dry the capacitor is in one case, but is two capacitors in one. There are three wires to the cap. The plug in connectors are both "hot" and the other wire that is soldered on the cap is neutral.

I had to replace mine with two caps, and wired the caps together, making the two outside connectors "hot" and the two inside connectors wired together as neutral.
My 66 spins and agitates fine now.

Do you think that one side of the cap may be defective on his machine?

 

[Unimatic1140]

I know on my 66 Rapid Dry the capacitor is in one case, but is two capacitors in one.

Yes if this machine does indeed have two capacitors (one for wash and one for spin) then the Agitate cap could be the issue as well. But I did just check the wiring diagram of the 1967 WCIL and I don't see any capacitors listed, unless they are not shown for what ever reason.

 

[davy1063]

NOW THAT YOU MENTION IT....

If I futz with the timer (push it in and out a couple of times) that gets it going. I wasn't sure if if was just the momentum of the windings getting the motor spinning after doing that or what. Let me check the connections on the timer this evening. Does anyone have a timer laying around (LOL). Also if that's the case, I'm still having difficulty in removing the timer knob. I had a post on this a while ago and we weren't able to determine how to get the bugger off.

 

[Unimatic1140]

So now you know what the problem is.

According to the 1967 Tech-Talk the WCIL knob is removed by:

"Remove the timer knob by pulling out firmly on the knob and turning it counterclockwise.

If it is stuck you might have to heat it (just the knob itself) gently with a heat gun first.

 

[davy1063]

Motor diagram

Here is a page out of the TechTalk manual. Just to rule out the motor...if I meter across the terminals and get the readings listed, would that at least give the windings a clear bill of health? I know it wouldn't rule out the capacitor(s) and I'm leaning with Uni on the timer, but just to be sure.....

 

[Unimatic1140]

Capacitor(s) ??

Davy, did you find any capacitors in that machine? They would be mounted on the rear service panel or on the motor if so. According to the wiring diagram there aren't any.

 

[panthera]

yes...and no

If you disconnect the motor from the harness and test, then yes - you should be able to quickly find out one of three states.
1) Motor OK. Leaves wiring, cap(s), centrifugal starter,timer (contact? - Wasn't GM using that one plastic wheel as cam tracks for all the followers in 1967?)
2) Motor not ok, winding dead. You may still have another problem which killed it, but this would mean either a rebuild, or, as someone mentioned above - you get lucky and find where it vaporized.
3) Motor tests with one winding dead or shorted but the fault lies with the starting mechanism.

Personally, I suspect the field windings are ok, problem lies in contacts - either starter or timer,

Don't get too hyper about the resistance being a bit high or low for any one measurement. Be sure to also measure all to ground. Sound like a scratched CD here, but remember - the caps. are still carrying one hell of a load.

 

[panthera]

of course

Being very cautious, you could also test the female connector. If the start wire for spin were dead, that would mean either the cap, wiring or (shudder) timer.
Probably safest to discharge the caps, take them out of circuit, then (after jumpering their connections) test for continuity with the VOM and not 125VAC. Caps. filter DC, so you'd have to take them out of the circuit.

 

[davy1063]

there are no capacitors on the service panel. there is nothing that I can see on the motor. I looked at the schematic and the only thing it shows is the connector and the color codes. No other info.

 

[panthera]

some do, some don't

Davy,
Whether or not a machine has none, one or more caps. installed depends on various factors. Frigidaire offered a simple retro-fit cap. to dealers for customers in low-voltage areas for those washers sold without. So you may not have one. I had a '67 without; added one following the service bulletin when I moved up into the mountains and 125V was very "nominal". Was more like 105V, even the phase was seriously unstable.. My only concern was you don't hurt yourself or the thumper by overlooking one. So, no cap.....that means let's hope you have a broken wire in the harness.

 

[trainguy]

Dave,

I'm still digging through my stuff for a tub nut. I've got lots of NOS water bellows. Did you need a new one?

Rich

 

[davy1063]

Water Bellows...

Rich, it might be a good idea to replace the water bellows since there is evidence of water infiltration.

Does the motor use the same start windings for spin as agitate? I'm trying to narrow down issues like:
1) timer
2) capacitor (if any)

I'm going to make a cheater cord to test the motor and bypass the timer as per the Repair Master.

If there is anything else you think I might want to replace while it's apart, please let me know. I owe you another dinner at Maliboos!!!!

 

[trainguy]

Tub Nutz

Dave,

Well persistence paid off. Three different tub nuts are pictured, but at least one is yours. I bought this box wrench on eBay a while back. Someday I'll take it to a machine shop and have them cut it in half. I can't tell you how many times I needed it.

Rich

 

[davy1063]

the one on the bottom is the one!