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wow...

so, what you guys are saying is that...

let me get this straight...

people still smoke?

/incredulous!

i mean, i don't care what you do in private. smoke in your house, in your car, whatever. join a smoking club or something. just keep it away from me.

we have laws against pissing in public places, against making too much noise and disturbing the peace, against creating emissions with your car that make the air hard to breathe, against any number of vulgar activities.

so if most people don't smoke... (at least, on my planet) and most people don't like breathing smoke, then isn't it fair to just regulate it like any other nusance? don't smoke in my air and i won't piss on your sidewalk and we can all be friends.

we have some laws to set boundaries. i love my civil liberties and i fight to keep them. sometimes i need to pee and i can't find a bathroom. do i fight to have the right to piss on the sidewalk? no. civility is what this is about.

new york city wants to ban restaurants from using trans fats in cooking. is this an invasion of your civil liberties? well, the pro smoking lobby, still sore from loosing the war to smoke in public places, points to this as further erosion of civil liberties. i call bullshit.

do you not feel offended that a huge corporation is making money by feeding you poison? do you not feel disgusted as you pay them hard earned money for the privlege?

so if i walk by you, huddled in the wind, shivering, just outside the vestibule with your butt in your hand and wrinkle my nose when i pass, maybe its a little more than just the smoke that curls my lip. maybe its the sadness i feel about your plight as an addict and a rube.

and when you blow your smoke my way, i'll feel bad for you... but you'll still be the jackass.

sorry if it makes you mad. just how i feel.
 
Are you for real?

Can some of you be ANY more hostile and obnoxious?

Do you REALLY compare a person walking down a street with a cigarette to someone taking a whiz?

You have some nerve to speak of other members in such a disparaging way for any reason! And anyone who does not speak out against such treatment should really feel ashamed of yourselves.

Nice that you love your civil liberties. Too bad you believe they trump mine.
 
Too Late

In the year 2005, the Lord came unto Noah, who was now living in Australia, and said, " once a gain, the earth has become wicked and over-populated and I see the end of all flesh before me. Build another Ark and save two of every living thing along with a few good humans." He gave Noah the blueprints, saying, "You have six months to build the Ark before I will start the unending rain for 40 days and 40 nights".

Six months later, the Lord looked down and saw Noah weeping in his yard.... but no ark.
"Noah", He roared, "I'm about to start the rain! Where is the Ark?"

"Forgive me, Lord," begged Noah. "But things have changed. - I needed a building permit. - I've been arguing with the inspector about the need for a sprinkler system. - My neighbors claim that I've violated the neighborhood zoning laws by building the Ark in my yard and exceeding the height limitations. - We had to go to the Planning Tribunal for a decision. - Then the electricity companies demanded a bond be posted for the future costs of moving power lines and other overhead obstructions , to c lear the passage for the Ark's move to the sea. - I argued that the sea would be coming to us, but they would hear nothing of it. Getting the wood was another problem. - There's a ban on cutting local trees in order to save the spotted owl. I tried to convince the environmentalists that I needed the wood to save the owls. But no go! When I started gathering the animals, I got sued by an animal rights group.

They insisted that I was confining wild animals against their will. As well, they argued the accommodation was too restrictive and it was cruel and inhumane to put so many animals in a confined space. Then the EPA ruled that I couldn't build the Ark until they'd conducted an environmental impact study on your proposed flood. I'm still trying to resolve a complaint with the Human Rights Commissio n on how many minorities I'm supposed to hire for my building crew. Also, the trades unions say I can't use my sons. They insist I have to hire only Union workers with Ark b uildin g experience. To make matters worse, the Tax Office seized all my assets, claiming I'm trying to leave the country illegally with endangered species. So, forgive me, Lord, but it would take at least ten years for me to finish this Ark." Suddenly the skies cleared, the sun began to shine, and a rainbow stretched across the sky. Noah looked up in wonder and asked, "You mean, You're not going to destroy the world ?"

"No," said the Lord. "The government beat me to it."

Kelly
 
My final weigh in on this....

I can see both sides....people wanting to get away from smoking, and breathe clear air, and people wanting personal freedom. As well as people like myself in the middle, who think people have a right to clean air, but that business owners have a right to serve a smoking clientele.

That said, while I don't own this site obviously, I IMPLORE my friends here to stop with the anti-conservative remarks. Need I remind folks that roughly 1/2 this country is some range of conservative, and it's a bit insulting to some of us to hear such name calling. I mean, "I hate republicans and their sleazy lifestyle?" What is up with that man? Is half the people on this board (conceivably) and 1/2 the population sleazy and worthy of hate?

My best advice, and my two cents, is agree to disagree with issues, but let's let up a bit on the anti-Republican, anti-President rhetoric. I think it creates some bad feelings that shouldn't be here.
 
Yes, the government is always to blame for everything. Even though the smoking ban in Washington was overwhelmingly approved by a direct vote of the citizens. Funny how that Democracy thing works. :-)

Libertarianism is like Communism. Interesting concept, but totally unworkable, no matter how much you may try to force it on people.
 
Kevin, I am in agreement with you.

The public square is not half as tolerant as it likes to believe it is. For that reason, I'm keenly aware that if I speak of politics or religion (which I like to keep nice and seperate, so that they both might thrive), I'll be persecuted for it.

Kevin, you and I could probably not be further apart politically, but, frankly, I come here to get away from the political discussions that unfortunately consume my day. Before I get shoved into a boxcar, perhaps we should all agree to discuss something more neutral (like unscented Tide, lol!), because I really believe politics will send this already charged thread over the edge. For this reason, I support you on this.
 
Truce?!

To Oxydolfan1 and anyone else that I may have offended,

I hope that I can communicate my thought so that they will be understood better.

I very much agree with protecting OUR(yours as well as mine) rights and this isn't what upset me. It was mearly, what I perceived as, a discourteous, in your face, f**k you if you don't like it, I'll hurt you if you offend me attitude that I read into Oxy's posts. Perhaps I read this wrong and I will be the FIRST to apologize for any misunderstanding on my part!

I was raised to treat others as I would like to be treated and respect others feelings. Perhaps this makes me a goody-two-shoes or sappy but that's fine by me. I sleep better at night knowing that I TRY to follow this rule.

Again, my reaction(and that is what it was) was NOT based on rights. It was based purely on, my perceived, lack of respect and courtesy. Oxy, I'm sure that, in person, we would get along just fine and probably have a lot of laughs as I think that you have a good sense of humour(as noted in other posts) and appreciate and respect your courage to disagree with the possible majority and speak up. This takes guts and I like that! :-)

I hope that I've made my feelings clear. I love this list and it's occupants. I may disagree with opinions but, I have to say that, I have a great deal of respect for everyone that I've encountered on this site.

No hard feelings?

Rich
 
no more comments about this from me. I have seen to many issues like this tear apart another great on-line group that I used to belong to. I'm going back to the laundry and wash this thread right down the drain.
 
Thank you, Rich, and, of course, no hard feelings to you.

This is a case of, one person went and spoke of smokers disparagingly, I defended myself perhaps too forcefully (but very much in the spirit of how I respond to such attempts to dominate me-I crush them before it becomes epidemic)...then it gets quiet, everyone steeps, I tone it down, and before you know it, two or three people start throwing shade, and I'm off.` But at no point did I confront anyone, threaten to get physical with them if given the chance, or insult them or call them a pig, and at no point were these little bon mots by others acknowledged by the studio audience. I'm a relative newbie, but a bit old to be going through any board hazings (unless, of course, Ty Pennington happens to be around), and it's just one of those things I'd rather establish right away, rather than sit through another example of the attitudes and equal intolerances that caused me to flee the whole Chelsoid scene in the first place.

Does this make any sense to anyone?

Look, I'm something of an activist, on a lot of issues that are important to me. I love this board, love all the members on it, even though I haven't been here for very long. I'm not here to upset the tureen. If we could put away the torches and the waterboards for just long enough for you to find out who I am and what I'm about, I'd be grateful. Okay?

Go in peace, walk in love, and for God's sake don't slam the door-the Venetian blinds'll fall down again...

Scotty
 
If we could put away the torches and the waterboards for ju

Scotty,

I'm glad!! Please do tell us more about yourself. I went to your profile and found nothing but your email contact. I don't think that I knew your first name 'till you signed your last post(I may have missed it in past posts).

This list is VERY different than any list that I have ever been involved with. The people, here, tend to be sincerely interested in each other and each others feelings. I have seen more compassion come from people on this list than I have seen from some of my own family members. I have met more than a couple of people, from this group, in person as well as cyberspace, who I would now consider to be friends.

Please, let us know more about you?

Rich
 
blowing smoke in someones face better fits the *throwing shade* category, as opposed to simply defending oneself. the folks who hate Republicans baffle me as much as folks who claim to hate Democrats. these are artificial categories, people! meant to put us in boxes! i have issues with people who use moralizing and tarring of homosexuals to rally their troops. you might say various churches and the Republican establishment do this more often. in reality, ask Mr middle-america why/how they are conservative/liberal/Republican/Democrat and you are likely to get a mixture of TV soundbites/fabricated, spoon-fed opinions as a response. the republican VS democrat mentality is too lazy for me.
 
Smoking to Politics on washer site!!!

Sorry guys, but i think this should not be on here unless what you are smoking is rolled up powdered detergent! (and before anyone condemns me, I am not trying to make light of a very sensitive topic, just trying to lighten up the discussion)

... and while I am on here.... we have just moved from Scotland to England and I love the no smokiong in bars restauramts etc. Yes I can wear my clothes (if I so wish) the day after a night clubbing. Unfortunately here in England, they are popped in the wash basket immediately! I am a non smoker and hate the habit but do not wish to see another persons right to smoke taken away from them completely. (Just realised the link between smoking and this site could be the loss of precious time washing smoke smelling clothes as a result of the smoking ban!!!!Eureka!!!)
I do wonder what will be next to be banned in public.... Breastfeeding? Hanging clothes out on a Sunday? Outdoor sex?????? erm, maybe getting off the point a bit there!

So, can we get back to washing machine discussions now?
I have a load of white towels in at the moment AND have just discovered the delights of Powder instead of tabs (much better rinsing results for one).......Discuss!
 
Bearpeter, There are already expensive neighborhoods in this country and in my area where you are forbidden to hang clothes outside. A friend even ran into trouble for having one of those folding drying racks on her own damn screen porch!

Hanging out wash on Sunday has mostly changed. In the co-op where I lived, that was against the rules for many decades, but when I moved there in the 80s, there was no problem, not that I hang clothes out to dry. In the 50s and early 60s, a neighbor with small children used to hang laundry in the basement on Sunday before she got a dryer so that The One she worshipped would not know that she was doing laundry.

Outdoor sex is still banned here and many international visitors to this country are dismayed to find that topless sunbathing is illegal in places.

Do you attribute the better rinsing of the powder versus the tabs to a better ability to add just the right amount of detergent to the load or is it a lower foaming formula? I am finally accepting that if I wash with a liquid detergent there is going to be a sudsy rinse and the rinses will continue to be sudsy long after the clothing is rinsed well enough to wear without discomfort from left over detergent. I still use mostly powders, but love the fragrance of the new liquid Tide Guns and Roses or Roses and Thorns or something that I read about here, so when I wash the bath sheets in the toploader, I use it and even with suds on the rinse water, the terry cloth dries so soft and smells so good that I just don't think about the sudsy rinse. It's probably another sign that I am abandoning principles, everything is going to hell and the end of the world is near.
 
It's important to note that 90% of the bans on things such as hanging clothes out to dry, etc are neighborhood covenants, condo rules, etc. where the community got together and decided these things (or a developer decided it for them)

In my mom's neighborhood, you have to keep your house painted white and your garage door closed. You used to have to maintain a gaslight in your front yard to act as the streetlight as well, but that rule lapsed a long time ago. My mom is the only one who still has hers.

There was never a rule on hanging out clothes, however. That would have caused a mutiny in Iowa ;-)
 
A lot of communities have these "deed restrictions", and in some places for good reason.
Our subdivision states that our house has to be repainted in the original color. Most of the homes here are either white, or beige brick homes. But you can change your color if you apply for a color amendment with the homeowners association. It usually takes about 90 days to accomplish. But if you are choosing a color that is close to the original, or looks pleasing on your type of architechture, they usually approve it. We had a family at the front of the subdivision with a English Tudor style home who painted the beams pink and the stucco yellow. It was like that for about a year while they fought the homeowners association in court. They lost and had to paint it back to the traditions brown and white. But it was god awful while it lasted. I hate to think of how much money they wasted on court fees.
When battling these homeowners associations in court not only are you paying all the inflated court costs, but they assess a daily fine for your violation. In Texas they can even grab your home away from you. What happens is that the fees build up to a point where you can't afford them anymore. Then when you can't pay, they seize your home and evict you. Usually your home is then purchased for the amount of the fees by someone on the homeowners board. Convenient, isn't it?
My neighbor is in hot water now as he replaced his entire fence with 4" Cedar fencing. The "accepted fence" is 3" Cedar. They have already sent him a letter demanding that he tear down the new fence and rebuild it with the "accepted" size wood.
Where will it end?
 
That's why I like living in the city. Nobody cares what you do with your house.

But, come to think of it, I bet someone could paint their house a different color in Mom's neighborhood, and no one would even care. She's the only person left from the "old days", and she could care less.
 
Rich...no problem! Not much to know, actually. Should I start a thread, and introduce myself, or just answer your questions?

(On second thought, let this cigarette furor die down a bit.)

Dalangdon, you know where it hits me? In the bathroom!

A number of years ago, we were required to install low-flow flush toilets. Yes, I know-we need to restrict our use of the planet's precious resources, and I agree. And, I said to myself, get over it...you'll be used to this in no time.

It must be a decade now. And I'm still not over it. If there's one place I want an ample flow of water, it's my toilet. The ironic thing is, not to get to graphic, but sometimes I have to become a "four-flusher"!

Now how does this ultimately save water?

That's one of the reasons why I've been holding off on purchasing a high-efficiency washer, as well. Call me retentive, but I'm sorry....there is just not enough water fill on some of these machines to get things deep-down clean (I know this is controversial, but that's just what I've found...)

Point is, some things make eminent sense on paper....but I'm actually far more critical and far less willing to buy more environmentally-sensitive American products, based on these experiences, and I actually think that the whole idea of "greening the planet" has been impeded by legislative interference in these matters. I think that corporations and legislators take the lazy way out on addressing our problems, I don't think the environmental lobby really hears us sometimes in addressing our needs as consumers, and I'm sorry about that.

Does anyone else hear me on this? It's just another aspect of how trying to force progress can subconsciously backfire.
 
Beat your swords into plowshares

Cake anyone? Brown Beauty, Chocolate Caramel, or the old stand by, Coconut.
The coffee's on.
I hate it when the you kid's argue. Mom has some nice cake and then we'll go shop at the junk store and see what we can find.
Kelly
 
What? No High Efficiency Washer? Them's REAL fightin' words!!!

Just kidding of course. :-)

I'm not the laundry person in the family (vintage kitchen is much more my thing), so I am not the person to discuss their benefits versus disadvantages. The one thing I'll say is that I like how gentle our Frigidaire FL is on my collection of vintage Hawaiian shirts. My old machine (I don't remember for sure, but I think it was a Maytag) used to eat them for lunch. Those shirts are the one piece of laundry I don't let John touch, as he tends to get things "brutally clean". My white T-Shirts and socks have never been whiter, but they fall apart a lot quicker.

...and the woman who rents from us is an ironing fiend. I prefer to not have my jeans ironed, and it took forever to break her of that habbit, LOL.
 
Don't get me started on HOAs

Geez, and then I said this was my last contribution to this thread...but oh well, we can just say that it was my last statement on smoking bans.

HOAs have spread like wildfire. Me? Again, I think it is amazing how many people are so willing to sign away their rights to get into a new home, then they bitch and complain that they can't keep their garage door open.

In many areas, there is little or no housing available without "codes, covenants and restrictions" attached to the deed. To me, this is disgusting.

99% of the bad stuff is usually covered by city codes...building too close to your neighbors's property, temporary structures in the front yard, no trash piles in the backyard, etc. The city can fine the homeowner, haul away trash and bill the owner, etc, if they don't fix the problem. Alright by me.

Now, you may have an argument that controlling what colors you paint your house keeps your wacky neighbor from painting his house purple and driving down the value of your house when you sell it. I can see that point, but again, not at the loss of all your other rights.

When Kim and I were looking for a new house about 8 years ago (Thank God we stayed where we were and waited to buy the place we are in now) this is what we found throughout Southern California, some developments worse than others. When you read these, turn on your wayback machine and think of how things were in the 60s/70s:

* No basketball hoops mounted over the garage
* Garage doors cannot be open for more than 20 minutes, and cannot be open unattended at all
* Fine for trashcans left out overnight (guess you have to make special arrangements if your plane gets hung up on a day trip)
* All painting and improvements must be approved by the "association"
* No window coverings except "association approved" colors and styles
* No overnight parking in the street
* No overnight parking in your own driveway
* No RV or boat parking, even if you have a larger lot with plenty of room on the side of your house to pour a slab
* No swingsets
* No working on cars in your garage
* No workshop in your garage
* No storage in your garage
* "Overwatering" may be reported to the "Association"

Bear in mind, I am not talking about renting an apartment, I am talking about BUYING your OWN HOME.

I know people who have homes that must keep part of their land as "wilderness". That means, they are not allowed to cut down weeds (except up to 15 feet from their house) kill snakes on it, trap animals like gophers, or plant anything on it. They must also follow exacting standards on how many square feet of lawn they must maintain. If it is not up to maintenance standards, they are fined by the "association". And, believe it or not, if they wish to paint THEIR SIDE OF A COMMON FENCE between themselves and a neighbor, not only does the "association" have to approve the color, but so does all adjoining neighbors.

Ok, so, you have more and more of these neighborhoods popping up, and less traditional neighborhoods.

And you want to tell me about how we are not losing our rights? Personally, I don't care if the government is doing it, or a bunch of silly control-freak people working for an association. My original point stands. Keep giving up your rights, and one day, you will have to give up everything that is important to you--because surely it irritates some other fool.

Meanwhile, I live in an old fashioned neighborhood. There's a basketball hoop over the garage that was there when I bought the place. I have built a tasteful carport in the back, I am building my sons' spaceship, we have room to play, and my neighborhood is gorgeous--even with a disgusting basketball hoop or two and an occasional, heaven help us, workshop in a fellow's garage.
 
HOAs are a tyranical unelected government and your only hope is to get on the board immediately to prevent the anal compulsives from running and ruining everyone's life. I would not want to live under one.
 
We live in a neighborhood like Kevin's: We have city zoning so that (thank God) we can't suddenly have a factory on the corner, or something like that. Otherwise, we can do pretty much what we want with our houses, and no one gets worked up. We have a nice mix of races, ages, incomes, and housing stock. Our neighborhood business district has a coffee shop, a Mexican grocery, a "regular" grocery, a library, a bar, a very good Fillipino restaurant, a very lame barbeque restaurant, and entirely too many gas stations, dental offices, tax accountants and hair salons (for some reason). We have the occasional petty crime (burglary, car prowling, etc) but overall it's a pretty nice, low-key place to live. Other than the street grid, it's an as unplanned a place as you can ever live.
 
Wow! I'm not sure what to comment on because this thread has gone in 100 different directions...

Better to keep quiet and be thought of as a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt...
 
Dan...

You just described my neighborhood. And you know what, it works.

My next door neighbor sweeps my driveway when he does his, and when I edge I will go ahead up the street and edge his too. When I put my stove out to the curb, sure enough the nice lady across the street wanted it and I rolled it over to her house where she is now getting it worked on. People generally don't park in front of other people's homes for extended periods of time because of common courtesy. Our street is interesting because my group of homes I would say are average (for here) priced and as you go up the street they are worth about $300K more...but there are guys there that have built big garages in the back to accomodate RVs, and every house is different, a different color, etc. Vive la difference, and I love it.

Funny how things generally work out when left to common sense and courtesy.
 
Goodness Gracious!

Whirlcool - Where WILL it end???? The only way to truly enjoy freedon is to buy on a plot with electric fencing round (saying that I suppose many a law suit would ensue as people throw themselves on the fence in an attempt to rob you blind!!!!!)
Tom - You are right about the powder against tabs argument. Even with 1 tab in a frontloader, there is a strong odor of perfume, not from the sortener but from the tab itself! I now live in a harder water area which I do think helps but my way of measuring rinsing ability is how soft my old towels feel after drying in the dryer. Lately better! (nothing worse than hard scratchy towels when drying of your "what-not's"!!!!

Here's to a more harmonious automatic washer,org..... Who needs politics anyways (ducks, runs and cancels subscrition to autowasher.org for fear of starting another riot!!!!)
 
Kelly! Those cakes....

look fabulous!!!! As a man NOT currently height to weight proportioned, i would love to say yes to a slice.... sadly, due to the distance, the frosting would go before it arrived!!!
 

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