35W Freeway Bridge Collapse
- Thread starter Unimatic1140
- Start date
Help Support :
Like all of you, I am glad that this was not worse than it is. My mom was quite upset. She graduated from the U of M, although she spent most of her time at the ag campus in St. Paul. After graduation she managed the 11PM to 7AM shift in the cafeteria of a big defense plant way west of the cities. Her big event there was when Roosevelt died.
Not to make light of the tragedy, but the Police Chief Tim Dolan sure brought beauty to the screen as did the Mayor of Minneapolis.
Most, if not all of the Federal Interstate Highway System was built with money from coffers here in Washington. They started during Eisenhower's term as Defense Highways for moving troops and weapons around the country. He was impressed by the autobahns. The states put up some matching funds in places, but I remember the big signs stating: YOUR FEDERAL TAX DOLLARS AT WORK wherever the construction was taking place. The bad thing about the Federal Government is that while they make it possible to build things, they are very bad at maintaining them. In the late 70s, a seam split in the water proof membrane under the kitchen on the top floor of the Center for the Performing Kennedys. The US Park Service kept requesting funds to fix the floor membrane, but the requests for the comparatively modest sum kept being turned down. By that time the plaster on a large section of the huge right wall of the concert hall was bubbling and flaking and looking like hell. Finally, the concert hall was closed for a year while everything from the kitchen floor down was fixed. The highways and sewers and water systems, like the electrical grid (not all of them government built)are there, but no one in a position to do anything is thinking about the deterioration, nor does anyone want to talk about it. On still summer mornings if you walk around Capitol Hill, you can smell natural gas seeping from the ancient pipes installed underground over 100 years ago.
I do not understand why the bridge was built without center support "to aid navigation" when the water is, according to reports 7 to 9 feet deep and just above the bridge is a dam. It's not like the Chesapeake Bay Bridge with huge freighters passing under it many times a day. Does the dam have a lock for river traffic to negotiate the dam? The 10th Street Bridge has supports aplenty so was this bridge design more designer's ego than practical?
I hope the death toll does not rise much higher and that everyone gets adequate treatment for the trauma. I have no worries about the bridge being rebuilt rapidly. It's in a wealthy city with probably a majority caucasian population and the Democratic Party plans to hold their next convention there.
Not to make light of the tragedy, but the Police Chief Tim Dolan sure brought beauty to the screen as did the Mayor of Minneapolis.
Most, if not all of the Federal Interstate Highway System was built with money from coffers here in Washington. They started during Eisenhower's term as Defense Highways for moving troops and weapons around the country. He was impressed by the autobahns. The states put up some matching funds in places, but I remember the big signs stating: YOUR FEDERAL TAX DOLLARS AT WORK wherever the construction was taking place. The bad thing about the Federal Government is that while they make it possible to build things, they are very bad at maintaining them. In the late 70s, a seam split in the water proof membrane under the kitchen on the top floor of the Center for the Performing Kennedys. The US Park Service kept requesting funds to fix the floor membrane, but the requests for the comparatively modest sum kept being turned down. By that time the plaster on a large section of the huge right wall of the concert hall was bubbling and flaking and looking like hell. Finally, the concert hall was closed for a year while everything from the kitchen floor down was fixed. The highways and sewers and water systems, like the electrical grid (not all of them government built)are there, but no one in a position to do anything is thinking about the deterioration, nor does anyone want to talk about it. On still summer mornings if you walk around Capitol Hill, you can smell natural gas seeping from the ancient pipes installed underground over 100 years ago.
I do not understand why the bridge was built without center support "to aid navigation" when the water is, according to reports 7 to 9 feet deep and just above the bridge is a dam. It's not like the Chesapeake Bay Bridge with huge freighters passing under it many times a day. Does the dam have a lock for river traffic to negotiate the dam? The 10th Street Bridge has supports aplenty so was this bridge design more designer's ego than practical?
I hope the death toll does not rise much higher and that everyone gets adequate treatment for the trauma. I have no worries about the bridge being rebuilt rapidly. It's in a wealthy city with probably a majority caucasian population and the Democratic Party plans to hold their next convention there.
sudsmaster
Well-known member
Rich they said 59 of these are in California,
Don't know if you meant this Rich, but the head of Caltrans has stated that California has no bridges of the same design as the 35W bridge. Also, while about 85 bridges in California are also listed as "structurally deficient" this can mean something like peeling paint or potholes in the roadway. It's a very broad designation and really doesn't give enough detail to make decisions about which bridges are safe and which are not safe.
Don't know if you meant this Rich, but the head of Caltrans has stated that California has no bridges of the same design as the 35W bridge. Also, while about 85 bridges in California are also listed as "structurally deficient" this can mean something like peeling paint or potholes in the roadway. It's a very broad designation and really doesn't give enough detail to make decisions about which bridges are safe and which are not safe.
CalTrans says we have some truss bridges here, but they have more supports under them and don't span 500' like the 35W did so are not as precarious. Seems like 1967 was a notorious year for bad construction. If memory serves me, a state building in El Centro that was built in '67 collapsed in an earthquake when it was only about 20 or so years old and the earthquake wasn't even that strong. I think many of the buildings that were damaged beyond repair in the '94 Northridge quake were also mid 60's vintage. My company has a facility next to a 10-story 60's building in Van Nuys that to this day remains red-tagged.
I agree that in the video that captured the collapse it appears the failure at both ends of the center span was almost simultaneous. That's probably got a lot of experts scratching their heads. It will be interesting what sort of spin they give this failure. I think it's going to be nearly impossible to ever be sure what caused it.
I agree that in the video that captured the collapse it appears the failure at both ends of the center span was almost simultaneous. That's probably got a lot of experts scratching their heads. It will be interesting what sort of spin they give this failure. I think it's going to be nearly impossible to ever be sure what caused it.
The depth varies up to 14 feet deep. There is a set of
locks right near the bridge on the south side of the river.
You can see them in some of the pictures broadcast.
You may have already seen it on the news tonight, but they're
thinking there was a problem on the south end with the deck
moving east and the structure/support moving west (upstream) -
a difference of 50' in movement.
locks right near the bridge on the south side of the river.
You can see them in some of the pictures broadcast.
You may have already seen it on the news tonight, but they're
thinking there was a problem on the south end with the deck
moving east and the structure/support moving west (upstream) -
a difference of 50' in movement.
washertalk
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2006
- Messages
- 837
It is interesting that there is money for a ballpark most people could care less about, but not moneys for infrastructure.
And there is Federal monies that will match dollar for dollar with state monies for projects like this. But if the state doesn't raise taxes or find another means of contibuting, then there is no bridge improvement.
We need the rich, who are pigging out and not paying their fair share of taxes to pay up. And we need tax cuts for the people making less than $125,000 a year. Those people making the most should be paying 50% taxes on income. This wouldn't change the fact that they are STILL rich. A gallon of milk costs the same regardless of who is buying it.
Now, the rich individuals and those who incorporate to shield themselves pay a pitance in taxes and AND spend their monies buying people who will convince the general public that taxes are bad. I give you fox news trash.
Taxes for the Richest is good. Tax cuts for the poorest is necessary. People, the richest are a small minority and can be out voted. I underscore VOTE.
Our country is so screwed. We owe so much money to the Chinese and other countries. It is sad to see a once grand country quietly slipping into fascism, and people don't want to believe it. They want to keep reliving yesterdays glorys. Were not going back to the 1950's. People turn their heads and play ignorant so as not to have to claim responsibility. How many more bridge collapses, City obliterations from global warming, and outright political criminal behavior is our country going to tolerate? Where is the outrage? Are people so medicated these days that they don't resist these abusive situations? That is not acceptable.
Honestly, I am getting to the point ... There are better countries to live. The U.S. is not number one or the best... Unless it comes to waste and pointless consumption.
And there is Federal monies that will match dollar for dollar with state monies for projects like this. But if the state doesn't raise taxes or find another means of contibuting, then there is no bridge improvement.
We need the rich, who are pigging out and not paying their fair share of taxes to pay up. And we need tax cuts for the people making less than $125,000 a year. Those people making the most should be paying 50% taxes on income. This wouldn't change the fact that they are STILL rich. A gallon of milk costs the same regardless of who is buying it.
Now, the rich individuals and those who incorporate to shield themselves pay a pitance in taxes and AND spend their monies buying people who will convince the general public that taxes are bad. I give you fox news trash.
Taxes for the Richest is good. Tax cuts for the poorest is necessary. People, the richest are a small minority and can be out voted. I underscore VOTE.
Our country is so screwed. We owe so much money to the Chinese and other countries. It is sad to see a once grand country quietly slipping into fascism, and people don't want to believe it. They want to keep reliving yesterdays glorys. Were not going back to the 1950's. People turn their heads and play ignorant so as not to have to claim responsibility. How many more bridge collapses, City obliterations from global warming, and outright political criminal behavior is our country going to tolerate? Where is the outrage? Are people so medicated these days that they don't resist these abusive situations? That is not acceptable.
Honestly, I am getting to the point ... There are better countries to live. The U.S. is not number one or the best... Unless it comes to waste and pointless consumption.
bestcleaning
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2006
- Messages
- 259
I am so glad you are at home safe.
-Rodrigo
-Rodrigo
Canada's looking better and better all the time isn't it Erik? I too am wondering where the outrage is. Bush should have been run out on a rail a long time ago and he continues to thumb his nose at the legal process and protect his rotten-to-the-core cronies and CEO pals.
I just hope that this country isn't brought to its knees--because it's going to be at this rate--while I'm still living here.
It's high time California (or the entire west coast) seceded in my opinion, although that would only weaken the U.S. GNP more than it already is.
I just hope that this country isn't brought to its knees--because it's going to be at this rate--while I'm still living here.
It's high time California (or the entire west coast) seceded in my opinion, although that would only weaken the U.S. GNP more than it already is.
rp2813
Remember those maps after the 2004? election showing CA, OR, WA,
MN, WI, MI, northeast states, and maybe a few others becoming
part of Canada (or a newly-named country) and all the red states
becoming a country called Jesusland? Most of the taxes are
paid by the blue states, yet it is the red states that complain
about taxation while getting back more than they put in.
Remember those maps after the 2004? election showing CA, OR, WA,
MN, WI, MI, northeast states, and maybe a few others becoming
part of Canada (or a newly-named country) and all the red states
becoming a country called Jesusland? Most of the taxes are
paid by the blue states, yet it is the red states that complain
about taxation while getting back more than they put in.
Oh yeah.
Locks are on the south side of the river, just a short number
of feet west of the bridge.
Also, the Republican National Convention will be in MPLS, not
the Democratic National Convention. That was one of the comments
on the news last night - have to get this resolved so those
conventioneers can get around....
Locks are on the south side of the river, just a short number
of feet west of the bridge.
Also, the Republican National Convention will be in MPLS, not
the Democratic National Convention. That was one of the comments
on the news last night - have to get this resolved so those
conventioneers can get around....
~sudsshane
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2007
- Messages
- 1,250
Washertalk...
Erik, I couldn't agree more...
The damage done to this country will take many years to repair. Bush has some damn nerve coming to Minneapolis. If infastructure was funded accordingly over the last several years, this disaster could very well have been avoided.
If I was a family member, who lost a loved one in this tragedy, I would spit right into Bush's face,,and Pawlenty's too for that matter...
It would be worth a trip to jail.
Erik, I couldn't agree more...
The damage done to this country will take many years to repair. Bush has some damn nerve coming to Minneapolis. If infastructure was funded accordingly over the last several years, this disaster could very well have been avoided.
If I was a family member, who lost a loved one in this tragedy, I would spit right into Bush's face,,and Pawlenty's too for that matter...
It would be worth a trip to jail.
sudsmaster
Well-known member
There is no doubt plenty of blame to go around...
Federal government for taking from the most productive states and giving to the less productive ones... Bush for pushing for war and huge defense budgets when our country's infrastructure suffers... state and local governments trying to make up the shortfall in federal funding by diverting gas tax revenues for non-transit related expenses... politicians and elected officials settling for the cheap way our (inadequate visual inspections) instead of the more expesnive solution (actual repairs/replacement)... experts giving the officials a way out by listing increased visual inspections as a viable alternative to repairs... the list goes on...
However, although we may be mad as hell and not going to take it any more, the solution is to go to the polls and vote for the people you think have the right stuff to fix these problems. The solution is to ignore the media blitz and lies and actually research the politicians' pasts and voting records. We got into this mess partially because the public was lazy, and was willing to let a "good old boy" take over and run the show so that we (collectively) wouldn't have to think too hard. Well, the time has come (actually it came a while ago) to realize that the consequences of easy thinking are much harder than we ever imagined.
Federal government for taking from the most productive states and giving to the less productive ones... Bush for pushing for war and huge defense budgets when our country's infrastructure suffers... state and local governments trying to make up the shortfall in federal funding by diverting gas tax revenues for non-transit related expenses... politicians and elected officials settling for the cheap way our (inadequate visual inspections) instead of the more expesnive solution (actual repairs/replacement)... experts giving the officials a way out by listing increased visual inspections as a viable alternative to repairs... the list goes on...
However, although we may be mad as hell and not going to take it any more, the solution is to go to the polls and vote for the people you think have the right stuff to fix these problems. The solution is to ignore the media blitz and lies and actually research the politicians' pasts and voting records. We got into this mess partially because the public was lazy, and was willing to let a "good old boy" take over and run the show so that we (collectively) wouldn't have to think too hard. Well, the time has come (actually it came a while ago) to realize that the consequences of easy thinking are much harder than we ever imagined.
Rich, I disagree with your statement about it being a mistake for the feds "taking from the most productive states and giving to the less productive ones". I really do think that every state has something to offer and, since we are the UNITED states, it is totally appropriate that we all pull together. Our strength has always lay in our federation.
But I wholeheartedly agree that we all share in the blame for the state this nation is in: We've settled for the most shallow examples of leaders; politically, religiously and corporately speaking. We've allowed ourselves to be duped time and again by distinguished-looking frontmen who have put kindly faces on naked greed and the lust for power. We've allowed ourselves to get distracted by manufactured scandals (Monica Lewinsky) while ignoring the true scandals (Enron, The "war on terror", Katrina, tainted food, etc, etc, etc.....)
In short, we're a mess: Sitting on the couch, watching celebrity newsertainment while the country that so many people (not only soldiers, but also laborers) fought and died for, falls apart.
But hey - at least we've got 146 channels.
But I wholeheartedly agree that we all share in the blame for the state this nation is in: We've settled for the most shallow examples of leaders; politically, religiously and corporately speaking. We've allowed ourselves to be duped time and again by distinguished-looking frontmen who have put kindly faces on naked greed and the lust for power. We've allowed ourselves to get distracted by manufactured scandals (Monica Lewinsky) while ignoring the true scandals (Enron, The "war on terror", Katrina, tainted food, etc, etc, etc.....)
In short, we're a mess: Sitting on the couch, watching celebrity newsertainment while the country that so many people (not only soldiers, but also laborers) fought and died for, falls apart.
But hey - at least we've got 146 channels.
sudsmaster
Well-known member
Dan,
I meant to list the most common targets mentioned when blame is assigned - I don't necessarily think all of those "blames" are valid. But I do agree with another poster that it's a bit odd that there are states that are heavily on the receiving end of federal funds that also seem to complain the loudest about paying taxes.
Anyway, the point I was hoping to make was that it's too easy to point the finger of lames and then sit back and not do any thinking on our own to help ourselves elect people who will do a better job than those currently in office. Too many times I hear people mope and whine about this or that, only to have them conclude "they're all crooks" and announce that they will refuse to vote.
I meant to list the most common targets mentioned when blame is assigned - I don't necessarily think all of those "blames" are valid. But I do agree with another poster that it's a bit odd that there are states that are heavily on the receiving end of federal funds that also seem to complain the loudest about paying taxes.
Anyway, the point I was hoping to make was that it's too easy to point the finger of lames and then sit back and not do any thinking on our own to help ourselves elect people who will do a better job than those currently in office. Too many times I hear people mope and whine about this or that, only to have them conclude "they're all crooks" and announce that they will refuse to vote.
~sudsshane
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2007
- Messages
- 1,250
I agree with both Dan and Rich.
We all need to stand up as Americans and demand truth,accountability and competence from our elected leaders.
I am 38 yrs old and have voted in every election cycle since 1988.
Though a registered independent,I tend to favor Democratic candidates. Next year is a CRUCIAL election and it is imperitive that every American who can vote, will vote.
Keep in mind,the next President, and I hope and pray it is Hillary, will more than likely be appointing 2 Supreme Court Justices with the expected retirements of Justices- Ruth Bader Ginsberg, and John Paul Stevens who at 89, is the oldest and longest serving justice. Ginsberg, a Clinton appointee, and Stevens, a Ford appointee, are 2 of the most liberal members of the court.
If a Republican gets in,Steven Breyer,( Clinton appointee) will then be the only justice nominated by a Democrat.
Translated...not good for Civil/Gay rights, abortion rights...etc etc...
We all need to stand up as Americans and demand truth,accountability and competence from our elected leaders.
I am 38 yrs old and have voted in every election cycle since 1988.
Though a registered independent,I tend to favor Democratic candidates. Next year is a CRUCIAL election and it is imperitive that every American who can vote, will vote.
Keep in mind,the next President, and I hope and pray it is Hillary, will more than likely be appointing 2 Supreme Court Justices with the expected retirements of Justices- Ruth Bader Ginsberg, and John Paul Stevens who at 89, is the oldest and longest serving justice. Ginsberg, a Clinton appointee, and Stevens, a Ford appointee, are 2 of the most liberal members of the court.
If a Republican gets in,Steven Breyer,( Clinton appointee) will then be the only justice nominated by a Democrat.
Translated...not good for Civil/Gay rights, abortion rights...etc etc...
toggleswitch
Well-known member
Baby steps first.
Let's work on establishing a (one)official language.
Let's put up a fence to curb illegal immigrants.
Let's finally adopt the metric system.
Let's work on greening-up our act (ecology).
Let's control guns- effectively.
Let's clamp down on violent crime- effectively.
Let's divert funds to infrastructure here rather than overseas meddling, including war.*
Let's stay the hell out of world politics (and stop war-mongering) until we ourselves have our internal issues well laundered and ironed.
Astrologically this country is a Cancer sun-sign with a Saggitarius rising. EWWW an emotional know-it-all busybody mother-hen that sticks its face where it doesn't belong. A constitutinal change can remedy this as that date will then determine our collective personality.
We are a majority Protestant country (which are found to be the most productive of all the types of nations) with a strong work-ethic. [Don't argue this with me, it was taught to me in school!
]
We have a system of British/English law which is hands-down the best at furthering commerce/business.
We have resources.
There is no excuse for what this country is becoming.
WAKE UP UNCLE SAM!
RANT OVER. Please pass the Midol.
*simply cut back funding to foreign nations by 5% per year till zero. DONE.
Let's work on establishing a (one)official language.
Let's put up a fence to curb illegal immigrants.
Let's finally adopt the metric system.
Let's work on greening-up our act (ecology).
Let's control guns- effectively.
Let's clamp down on violent crime- effectively.
Let's divert funds to infrastructure here rather than overseas meddling, including war.*
Let's stay the hell out of world politics (and stop war-mongering) until we ourselves have our internal issues well laundered and ironed.
Astrologically this country is a Cancer sun-sign with a Saggitarius rising. EWWW an emotional know-it-all busybody mother-hen that sticks its face where it doesn't belong. A constitutinal change can remedy this as that date will then determine our collective personality.
We are a majority Protestant country (which are found to be the most productive of all the types of nations) with a strong work-ethic. [Don't argue this with me, it was taught to me in school!
]We have a system of British/English law which is hands-down the best at furthering commerce/business.
We have resources.
There is no excuse for what this country is becoming.
WAKE UP UNCLE SAM!
RANT OVER. Please pass the Midol.
*simply cut back funding to foreign nations by 5% per year till zero. DONE.
I agree. I'm glad I left town yesterday - don't want to be
anywhere close to Bush when he comes to MPLS (unless I could
have gotten close enough...) He has no problem wasting tax
dollars to fly out here to supposedly show support when we
know it's just politics. But doesn't have the time of
day to go to Dover to pay tribute to soldiers coffins coming
back from his war.
And no way I'm voting for Hillary - still too much in corporate
pockets, too. Biggest contributors are pharmaceuticals and
health insurance companies. We NEED Kucinich. What will we
get?
anywhere close to Bush when he comes to MPLS (unless I could
have gotten close enough...) He has no problem wasting tax
dollars to fly out here to supposedly show support when we
know it's just politics. But doesn't have the time of
day to go to Dover to pay tribute to soldiers coffins coming
back from his war.
And no way I'm voting for Hillary - still too much in corporate
pockets, too. Biggest contributors are pharmaceuticals and
health insurance companies. We NEED Kucinich. What will we
get?
We need to rediscover nuance....
Bold sweeping statements sound great (hugs, Toggle ;-) but what it boils down to is this: We need real leadership in society that is interested in something other than self-interest.
Religious leaders who are concerned more about "the flock" than the collection plate, or how many TV stations they can get on. (which most of them are, but it's the stinkers that get the most attention in our newsertainment society)
Business leaders who want to make a good profit WHILE putting out a quality product - although here we are again our own worst enemy, at least for public companies, thanks to "the street's" ridiculous growth expectations.
Political leaders who realize that we have a role to play in the world, but that our strength has always been our strong middle class. The poor need help, and the rich can take care of themselves (as they have for centuries) but it's the middle class that needs to be nurtured to keep this nation as strong as it has been.
We need a government that is responsive to the people, not oppressive and militaristic. One that can provide a balance to the (entirely appropriate) corporate drive for profit, not enable it by shirking their regulatory responsibilities. One that helps people become successful by providing a level playing field for life: Clean water, clean air, decent and affordable education, dependable/affordable energy, basic health care, good roads and rails, good air traffic control. That's what gives Mom & Pops a chance against the Wal-Marts of the world.
The WWII generation understood this, because they had seen the world - and this country - at its worst, not because of any inherent greatness on their part. Still, they managed to take this country from a rather backward, provincial place, to the pinnacle of world power and influence. We've managed to squander everything they accomplished.
We've made wonderful progress in social issues, but we haven't kept the place up.
Our problems can't be solved with laundry lists
Bold sweeping statements sound great (hugs, Toggle ;-) but what it boils down to is this: We need real leadership in society that is interested in something other than self-interest.
Religious leaders who are concerned more about "the flock" than the collection plate, or how many TV stations they can get on. (which most of them are, but it's the stinkers that get the most attention in our newsertainment society)
Business leaders who want to make a good profit WHILE putting out a quality product - although here we are again our own worst enemy, at least for public companies, thanks to "the street's" ridiculous growth expectations.
Political leaders who realize that we have a role to play in the world, but that our strength has always been our strong middle class. The poor need help, and the rich can take care of themselves (as they have for centuries) but it's the middle class that needs to be nurtured to keep this nation as strong as it has been.
We need a government that is responsive to the people, not oppressive and militaristic. One that can provide a balance to the (entirely appropriate) corporate drive for profit, not enable it by shirking their regulatory responsibilities. One that helps people become successful by providing a level playing field for life: Clean water, clean air, decent and affordable education, dependable/affordable energy, basic health care, good roads and rails, good air traffic control. That's what gives Mom & Pops a chance against the Wal-Marts of the world.
The WWII generation understood this, because they had seen the world - and this country - at its worst, not because of any inherent greatness on their part. Still, they managed to take this country from a rather backward, provincial place, to the pinnacle of world power and influence. We've managed to squander everything they accomplished.
We've made wonderful progress in social issues, but we haven't kept the place up.
Our problems can't be solved with laundry lists
oxydolfan1
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2006
- Messages
- 1,764
TOGGLES FOR PRESIDENT!!
laundryshark
Well-known member
1.7 Trillion Dollars in Five Years
That's the correct figure I heard from ABC News for fixing all the bridges. And how many newer structures are hastily built and poorly designed in the guise of more accessible and convenient roadway travel? The cold hard reality is the longer we put it off, the more expensive the price tag, and the harder it would be to pay for it all.--Laundry Shark
That's the correct figure I heard from ABC News for fixing all the bridges. And how many newer structures are hastily built and poorly designed in the guise of more accessible and convenient roadway travel? The cold hard reality is the longer we put it off, the more expensive the price tag, and the harder it would be to pay for it all.--Laundry Shark
Similar threads
